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I feel the current LL viewer is one of the reasons many new residents don't stay in sl, I have had to learn a lot of new software in my time working for companies some easier and some harder but the worst 'program' by far i have ever seen is the LL viewer its not intuitive and its clunky

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

ENOUGH!!!
You both have different opinions, we get it. Stop arguing about it. and change the damn title of your posts so it matches the OPs. I get confused seeing different titles pop for the same thread in my Emails.

Sorry, I was the 1 who dropped in a different title. I was hoping that if some1 didn't want to read about that topic then they could skip posts under that title. This thread has covered quite a bit.

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Not only that, but it would quell the fear that the textures and templates which are compatible with the new platform, won't be portable because if EULA issues.  Since most EULAs indicate that such assets are only to be used within Second Life, naming the new world Second Life would automatically legitimize their use in that new world.

_________________________________________________________________________________

Edited to change the font so it is obvious where the quote ends
:D

This was talked about way back towards the beginning of the thread. As the TOS of August changed the game The Lab has the legal right  to transfer the goods to the new grid whatever its name. The TOS (haven't read it lately and we no longer need to OK it when it is changed so who knows what it says now) certainly read that way as it was argued over and over 6-8 months ago and  many lawyers agreed --  that The Lab could sell our stuff with no monetary remuneration OR even attribution (as in strip our names off).

Now there are some darker scenarios that I came up with this morning but I would just as soon not write those here. You are smart folks (well, some of ya are *wink*) and can most likely see the possibilities.

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This actually is one of my concerns too. If the avies will be mesh in sl2, will we be able to customize them ourselves, like we can now with the shapes we get when we register? First thing I did in sl after registration, was editing my shape. I customized it to my rl me, and I never changed it since. Only bought new hair and skin, but my shape is my own creation, it's one of a kind and nobody has a copy, except my own alt. I hope we can do something similar in the new world, and not need to accept some non-editable mesh thirteen-in-a-dozen doll to be us. 

I have been on other platforms with mesh avatars and they have been editable at least to some extent. So I imagine that the plan. The new mesh head available here in SL can apparently make some facial expressions (I don't have one) and somewhere along the way Ebbe mentioned facial expressions which sent me on an imagination tour of making faces at the camera on your computer (or phone). I have NO IDEA if that is a plan but it does lead one to believe they will be mesh avatars much superior to the new entry ones now here for just signed up folks. Even those are somewhat editable. So I think that worry should be a far ways down on your list :D

 

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For those of you unaware there is a video of Saffia interviewing Jessica Lyon at SL11B. I enjoyed hearing what she had to say and there was a bit of info that I hadn't seen anywhere else. There are links to two version (with audience text and without) on thd Firestorm blog. 55 minutes. There are also more open and too be filmed meetings planned -- that info is at the near the end of the video.

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Chic Aeon wrote:


It was in Firestorm long before Phoenix disappeared

 

Must be it when you say so, I wouldn't know this as I actually only started using Firestorm after Phoenix was not supported anymore. So all I know is that when I started using Firestorm, it was gone. But it would be nice to have it back in the new world. 

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Suspiria Finucane wrote:

I was curious if you can say whether the brand Second Life will be on the new product and the old SL would be something like SL classic or SL legacy?

While I probably wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire, ...

 

...Dres

Yes!

ROFLMAO!

[sorry Dres, not that what the rest of what you had to say was not noteworthy but I mean this, this was just a classic. ;-) ]

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Phoebe Avro wrote:

The viewer will be all and end all

I disagree, I survived for years on the official viewer simply because I was intrigued by SL and it was the only option there was at the time.  Of course, the difference now is that I know how much functionality that TPVs can provide and would surely be disappointed by any less.  But that in itself wouldn't be a deal breaker.

...Dres

It would be a huge dealbreaker to me, as I totally hated the new viewer sl forced upon us a few years ago, and I might have left if there would not have been Phoenix. I seriously think that the tpv's helped sl survive when they created one of their worst viewers ever. 

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I have long argued that SL's technical infrastructure should be rebuilt from the ground up, but I envisioned a better SL, not a new and separate SL2. Linden Lab has a proven track record of incompetence in terms of vision, strategy, design, construction, pricing, social engineering, land management and customer service. Failing to post the news on its own blog just reeks of the same old crap we have had to deal with for the past seven years.

Sadly, Linden Lab's reputation is so poor that I cannot conceive of it succeeding with a new world after buggering up the old one. LL lacks almost all knowledge of economics and human behavior. It's business decisions have been tragic. My fear now is that SL2 will bankrupt the company once and for all.

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Chic Aeon wrote:


Not only that, but it would quell the fear that the textures and templates which are compatible with the new platform, won't be portable because if EULA issues.  Since most EULAs indicate that such assets are only to be used within Second Life, naming the new world Second Life would automatically legitimize their use in that new world.

_________________________________________________________________________________

Edited to change the font so it is obvious where the quote ends
:D

This was talked about way back towards the beginning of the thread. As the TOS of August changed the game The Lab has the legal right  to transfer the goods to the new grid whatever its name. The TOS (haven't read it lately and we no longer need to OK it when it is changed so who knows what it says now) certainly read that way as it was argued over and over 6-8 months ago and  many lawyers agreed --  that The Lab could sell our stuff with no monetary remuneration OR even attribution (as in strip our names off).

Now there are some darker scenarios that I came up with this morning but I would just as soon not write those here. You are smart folks (well, some of ya are *wink*) and can most likely see the possibilities.


I was talking about EULAs, in which case, what the ToS allows for or not is inconsequential.  Say I bought a texture with a EULA which restricts its use to only within SL... should the new platform be named anything else, regardless of whether or not its a LL product, uploading that texture there would be a violation of the EULA to which I agreed.  LL, as per the ToS, can do whatever they wish with such content... I, on the other hand, having agreed to much more restrictive terms, could not.

I don't necessarily believe that LL will name the new platform Second Life, I'm simply acknowledging the advantage of them doing so for those of us who wish to live up to the licenses to which we've already agreed.

...Dres

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Gavin Hird wrote:


irihapeti wrote:


Gavin you keep saying this. The minimum requirements of the law. What exactly is the minimum requirement of the law where you are?

 

The most important is clauses on what is governing law. 

Here is an example in a filing against Apple where they had to change their terms for iCloud:

«[...] If (a) you
are not a U.S. citizen; (b) you do not reside in the U.S.; © you are not accessing the Service from the U.S.; and (d) you are a citizen of one of the countries identified below, you hereby agree that any dispute or claim arising from this Agreement shall be governed by the applicable law set forth below, without regard to any conflict of law provisions, and you hereby irrevocably submit to the non-exclusive jurisdiction of the courts located in the state, province or country identified below whose law governs:

If you are a citizen of: Governing law and forum:

Any European Union country or Switzerland, Norway or Iceland The laws and courts of your usual place of residence

Specifically excluded from application to this Agreement is that law known as the United Nations Convention on the International Sale of Goods.»
(Our emphasis) 

The interpretation is that the law of the country of residence applies for services like this.

 

Further from the same ruling, 

The Council Directive 93/13/EEC on unfair terms in consumer contracts applys to such TOS

Pursuant to the directive’s article 3, first paragraph

“[a] contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair
if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties'
rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer”
.

According to the directive’s article 3, third paragraph, the directive contains an annex which
contains an indicative and non-exhaustive list of terms which may be regarded as unfair. It is laid down in paragraph 1 subparagraph j) of the annex that it will be regarded as unfair

“enabling the seller or supplier to alter the terms of the contract unilaterally without a valid reason which is specified in the contract”.

Further, pursuant to paragraph 2 subparagraph b)

ubparagraph (j) is also without h
indrance to terms under which a seller or supplier reserves the right to alter unilaterally the conditions of a contract of indeterminate duration, provided that he is required to inform the consumer with reasonable notice and that the consumer is free to
dissolve the contract”.

Paragraph 1 subparagraph j) of the annex limits the businesses’ right to reserve to themselves the
right to unilaterally alter the terms of the contract. For a change clause to be deemed fair, a reason for the change must be specified in the contract. This ensures a certain degree of control and predictability for the consumer. Further, the reason for the change must be
“valid”
. Subparagraph j) offers no further guidance as to what constitutes a
“valid reason”

 

The privacy section of the TOS is also important and must be in accordance with governing law. 

 

 

Gah, I'm going to go blind reading all this fine print.  ;)

First of all, as I read this, a lot of it has to do with inter-relations between Member States that may individually have different laws.  But I'll admit it's a lot of fine print and I'm not a Lawyer.  But the following two clauses are pretty clear to me:

Article 6

1. Member States shall lay down that unfair terms used in a contract concluded with a consumer by a seller or supplier shall, as provided for under their national law, not be binding on the consumer and that the contract shall continue to bind the parties upon those terms if it is capable of continuing in existence without the unfair terms.

2. Member States shall take the necessary measures to ensure that the consumer does not lose the protection granted by this Directive by virtue of the choice of the law of a non-Member country as the law applicable to the contract if the latter has a close connection with the territory of the Member States.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:31993L0013

If I'm reading the underlined part correctly the contract would continue if the illegal terms can be brought into compliance with the law which would, at least in my thinking, take you back to the old TOS.

Point 2 is interesting because does the EU define the U.S. as "having a close connection?"

Trying to carte blanche apply the Apple/Ipod ruling to the situation here may not apply because Apple has a distinct presence in Europe.  Note all the European subsidiaries in the chart on this page:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/05/21/business/apples-international-structure.html?ref=business&_r=0

 

Gah, this could really scramble someone's brains.

P.s. When posting quotes can you include the link?  Would be much appreciated.

 

 

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Zena Zemlja wrote:


Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Phoebe Avro wrote:

The viewer will be all and end all

I disagree, I survived for years on the official viewer simply because I was intrigued by SL and it was the only option there was at the time.  Of course, the difference now is that I know how much functionality that TPVs can provide and would surely be disappointed by any less.  But that in itself wouldn't be a deal breaker.

...Dres

It would be a huge dealbreaker to me, as I totally hated the new viewer sl forced upon us a few years ago, and I might have left if there would not have been Phoenix. I seriously think that the tpv's helped sl survive when they created one of their worst viewers ever. 

I completely agree with you about the fiasco which was V2.  I'm sure that, had I not already been using a TPV, having that mess forced upon me would have convinced me to start doing just that.  But, I'm also sure that, should no such options had been made available to me, I would have suffered through it in order to remain in SL.  The viewer is certainly important, but it's not, as you said, the be all and end all.

...Dres

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I wanted to participate in this viewer discussion so i dared to log in today via the last version of the official viewer. For the first time after 2 or 3 years .. at that time i wanted to use it but didnt succed to stay in longer than a few minutes.. it drove me crazy..

Now i am still in it as i write in order to study it but i cant promiss i will stay too long because .. it drives me crazy ..

Am I blind or there is no setting where i can tell my head or at least my eyes to no longer follow the mouse? Typical noob question, i know but in this viewer i am noob and in FS i never had this problem.

Am I stupid or is this a bug or.. is this the way it was conceived that in order to wear a new hair i must first detach the old otherwise the function wear acts like add ? But only by attachments ..

Am I stupid or are they stupid to not save different login names and passwords although save password is checked and aso the option multiple viewers ? Each time i try it with an alt i must type again the login data and when i go back to my main avatar i must type it again coz it keeps only the last one and doesnt make a list to chose from like "normal" viewers ..

Ah.. and it looks like each alt must set up his viewer preferences coz they are not taken from the avatar that was loged in before..

Am I blind or you cant search inventory by creator name ? Not to mention what not evn FS has but would be needed : search by permissions

Am I blind or the button for notifications can not be moved at the bottom of the screen?

I found the "set default upload permissions" but i cant find a place where i can set default permissions for objects i create. Am I blind or .. is it so?

Does it really have so little options in Prefernces or am i blind and dont see something on which i could click to get more ?

Is it normal that it loads the inventory again whenever i log in , which in my case , by over 300k items takes ages ?

And .. really no copy/paste function for object size and rotation values ?

I thought i can use it at least for whenever i wear some fitted mesh because the last FS, that can deal with this takes just too much of my 8 GB of RAM and i need RAM elsewhere. The official viewer takes less.. BUT put a mesh body on and try to edit the shape behind it .. your whole body VIBRATES by each change ..

Please tell me that im blind or stupid .. or both and these things are not really meant to be so in the "official SL viewer , last version". Because if its really meant so , how can anybody use it ?

 

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Derek Torvalar wrote:


Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Suspiria Finucane wrote:

I was curious if you can say whether the brand Second Life will be on the new product and the old SL would be something like SL classic or SL legacy?

While I probably wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire, ...

 

...Dres

Yes!

ROFLMAO!

[sorry Dres, not that what the rest of what you had to say was not noteworthy but I mean this, this was just a classic. ;-) ]

I'm pleased by the fact that my unfortunate choice of words have amused you so efficiently.  I'd seriously considered not including that preamble in my post, but realized that, if I didn't, Miss Piggy might have had cause to accuse me of being disingenuous... an accusation which I try to avoid as much as possible.

I've come to the realization that I should either keep my mouth shut or say exactly what I mean.  Numerous shots of rum are quite helpful in directing my decision between the two toward the later.

...Dres

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Most, but not all, options available in Firestorm's Preferences menu are also available in the official viewer through the debug menu.  Firestorm simply makes it easier to access those features.  Obviously, LL has chosen not to make them as readily available.

I can only imagine that this is because they wish to keep their viewer as uncomplicated as possible... therefore, only supplying us with that which they believe to be most important to the common user.  I don't necessarily blame them for doing so.

The Firestorm team has classes where people can learn how to deal with the complexity of their viewer.  LL will never do this, therefore, they must dumb down their viewer (so to speak).  And, lets face it... even their less optional, dumbed down viewer is very complicated in itself.

LL will never release a viewer as feature-rich as Firestorm, if only because they simply won't allocate the manpower needed to provide the necessary user support for it.

...Dres

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Teager wrote:

Ebbe,

While catching up on the last 10 or so pages of posts which happened last night, I've noticed a lot of you saying, in essence, "SL1 won't change; if you don't like it, don't switch." I can understand the reason behind that response. I, too, am getting tired of reading dozens of rude comments by the same handful of naysayers. But, speaking as one of many content creators whose full real life income is earned from Second Life, this response isn't helping to build my confidence. Any way you look at it, the launch of SL2 will divide our user base between two virtual worlds. (Possibly four, depending on launch dates of High Fidelity and the Facebook virtual world project.)

I believe all that I, and several other creators in this thread, want to convey to you and the SL2 dev team is that we need as much backwards compatibility as we can possibly get between the two grids... because, for us,
not
switching is not an option. If we don't move forward to the new grid, we divide our income in half. Even when we do switch, we as creators will be slowed by having to format our products for two different worlds. We won't be able to put out items as quickly as we could. My avatar projects require a detailed rigged mesh, dozens of textures, 100+ animations, sounds, scripts, HUD designs, addons, accessories, and third-party creator tools to be made, as well as extensive bug testing. Each of my avatars takes me an average of 10 months to complete (working full time, because SL is my full time job). By the time I complete my next avatar, SL2 will be in beta. By the time I've finished the one after that, SL2 may be approaching its launch date. Will those 20 months of work still be worthwhile when SL2 launches?

I'm thrilled to see that custom skeletons are something that have appeared on your roadmap; I'm hopeful that this will allow a lot of re-use of older meshes and animations, and I look forward as well to seeing the improvements that can come as a result of that feature. I'm hopeful that SL2 can grow to be a wonderful thing, and I'm eager to see what you come up with. All I ask is that, as you move forward and lay the groundwork for this new world, you don't fall into the trap of "you don't have to switch if you don't want to". Make us WANT to switch. Make it EASY to switch. And put high priority on maintaining as much backwards compatibility with SL1 as you possibly can. Custom armatures will greatly help with reusing meshes and animations. What can you do to reduce the workload of re-writing scripts? How about textured clothing and skins? The idea posted earlier of allowing some sort of method of matching old SL1 content in users' inventories to new SL2 updated content is a good one. Please make the transition as painless as possible. Don't let yourself become dismayed by the panic; find a way to excite us. Be on our side. Because we, the creators who form the backbone of the virtual world, need to be on your side too.

Thanks. That's definitely our goal and we'll make it easier than competitors will. We also don't want to compromise on how good it can be because of it. Balancing act. 

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I was talking about EULAs, in which case, what the ToS allows for or not is inconsequential.  Say I bought a texture with a EULA which restricts its use to only within SL... should the new platform be named anything else, regardless of whether or not its a LL product, uploading that texture there would be a violation of the EULA to which I agreed.  LL, as per the ToS, can do whatever they wish with such content... I, on the other hand, having agreed to much more restrictive terms, could not.

I don't necessarily believe that LL will name the new platform Second Life, I'm simply acknowledging the advantage of them doing so for those of us who wish to live up to the licenses to which we've already agreed.

...Dres

Yes, I absolutely understood what you are saying and voiced the same EUL idea for full perm mesh and textures and sculpt texture although those seem moot for SL 2.0. Obviously the makers of the goods expected their work (and stated) that they should stay on the Second Life grid and I DO see what you are saying. But The Lab also has the right to treat all items on their servers as theirs for use (while the copyright holders still "own" the copyright - are we dancing yet?).

 

So they can according to the lawyers on panels I was on distribute at will.  I honestly don't remember anyone with a degree talking about EULAs but I am guessing that the TOS terms trump them. I don't AGREE with that, but suspect it is true. Maybe an attorney will join in with an opinion. They certainly did on the TOS issue.

I absolutely agree it would be WRONG and against the EULA  -- and perhaps The Lab will take that into consideration on FULL PERM ITEMS with EULAS. We can't really know. It does seem like it would be a very tangled web and difficult to sift those items out though. AND many full perm creators might consider SL 2.0 and extension of SL 1.0.

 

At this point we don't actually know if the TOS we "signed" last August covers SL 2.0. I would have to go back and read for the dozenth time to even have an opinion on that and again -- it can be changed at any time.

 

And really if they changed the name of the NEW grid, then by extension the folks buying the items should no long be able to use them on what WAS the second life grid -- morally at least, I am certainly not a lawyer even though I have listened to TOO many.

So not disagreeing and I do see your point but morals and law are often different things. It is ALWAYS up to the purchasers if they adhere to an EULA. I am sure plenty pass around textures and mesh and complete finished full perm items. Those that make full perm know this happens. Happily THEIR consciouses are clear :D

 

NOW: I went to get the "much debated" clause in the TOS to paste in for those that might be knew  new and had no idea what I was talking about. See the highlighted area. THAT clause could be said (in my unlawyerness you understand) to also pertain to items with EUL).

 

A second edit: If you consider that TONS of items will contain full perm mesh and textures adapted by -- let's call them secondary creators (not disrespect intended) -- if those are going to be transferred to the new world it seem like a very big job to filter. I know a little about database management as my best friend does that for a living but even finding all the full perm items with EUL might be tricky (the Marketplace does have a "User Licence" or something of that sort so it might be possiblee. They certainly have the abilty to find all copies of items in a DMCA. I am actually quite interested in a historian type of viewpoint to see how this all plays out.

And did any of you think about that fact that since we are INWORLD and use the platform daily or whatever -- that WE may have though of many things that the devs have not? An interesting thought :D.

(sorry spell check is apparently out to lunch on this second edit)

 

2.3 You grant Linden Lab certain licenses to your User Content.

You retain any and all Intellectual Property Rights you already hold under applicable law in Content you upload, publish, and submit to or through the Servers, Websites, and other areas of the Service, subject to the rights, licenses, and other terms of this Agreement, including any underlying rights of other users or Linden Lab in Content that you may use or modify.

 

In connection with Content you upload, publish, or submit to any part of the Service, you affirm, represent, and warrant that you own or have all necessary Intellectual Property Rights, licenses, consents, and permissions to use and authorize Linden Lab and users of Second Life to use the Content in the manner contemplated by the Service and these Terms of Service.

 

Because the law may or may not recognize certain Intellectual Property Rights in any particular Content, you should consult a lawyer if you want legal advice regarding your legal rights in a specific situation. You acknowledge and agree that you are responsible for knowing, protecting, and enforcing any Intellectual Property Rights you hold, and that Linden Lab cannot do so on your behalf.

 

Except as prohibited by law, you hereby waive, and you agree to waive, any moral rights (including attribution and integrity) that you may have in any User Content, even if it is altered or changed in a manner not agreeable to you. To the extent not waivable, you irrevocably agree not to exercise such rights (if any) in a manner that interferes with any exercise of the granted rights. You understand that you will not receive any fees, sums, consideration or remuneration for any of the rights granted in this Section.

 

Except as otherwise described in any Additional Terms (such as a contest’s official rules) which will govern the submission of your User Content, you hereby grant to Linden Lab, and you agree to grant to Linden Lab, the non-exclusive, unrestricted, unconditional, unlimited, worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual, and cost-free right and license to use, copy, record, distribute, reproduce, disclose, sell, re-sell, sublicense (through multiple levels), modify, display, publicly perform, transmit, publish, broadcast, translate, make derivative works of, and otherwise exploit in any manner whatsoever, all or any portion of your User Content (and derivative works thereof), for any purpose whatsoever in all formats, on or through any media, software, formula, or medium now known or hereafter developed, and with any technology or devices now known or hereafter developed, and to advertise, market, and promote the same. You agree that the license includes the right to copy, analyze and use any of your Content as Linden Lab may deem necessary or desirable for purposes of debugging, testing, or providing support or development services in connection with the Service and future improvements to the Service. The license granted in this Section 2.3 is referred to as the "Service Content License."

 

Linden Lab has no obligation to monitor or enforce your intellectual property rights to your User Content, but you grant us the right to protect and enforce our rights to your User Content, including by bringing and controlling actions in your name and on your behalf (at Linden Lab’s cost and expense, to which you hereby consent and irrevocably appoint Linden Lab as your attorney-in-fact, with the power of substitution and delegation, which appointment is coupled with an interest).

 

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Ebbe Linden wrote:


Teager wrote:

Ebbe,

While catching up on the last 10 or so pages of posts which happened last night, I've noticed a lot of you saying, in essence, "SL1 won't change; if you don't like it, don't switch." I can understand the reason behind that response. I, too, am getting tired of reading dozens of rude comments by the same handful of naysayers. But, speaking as one of many content creators whose full real life income is earned from Second Life, this response isn't helping to build my confidence. Any way you look at it, the launch of SL2 will divide our user base between two virtual worlds. (Possibly four, depending on launch dates of High Fidelity and the Facebook virtual world project.)

I believe all that I, and several other creators in this thread, want to convey to you and the SL2 dev team is that we need as much backwards compatibility as we can possibly get between the two grids... because, for us,
not
switching is not an option. If we don't move forward to the new grid, we divide our income in half. Even when we do switch, we as creators will be slowed by having to format our products for two different worlds. We won't be able to put out items as quickly as we could. My avatar projects require a detailed rigged mesh, dozens of textures, 100+ animations, sounds, scripts, HUD designs, addons, accessories, and third-party creator tools to be made, as well as extensive bug testing. Each of my avatars takes me an average of 10 months to complete (working full time, because SL is my full time job). By the time I complete my next avatar, SL2 will be in beta. By the time I've finished the one after that, SL2 may be approaching its launch date. Will those 20 months of work still be worthwhile when SL2 launches?

I'm thrilled to see that custom skeletons are something that have appeared on your roadmap; I'm hopeful that this will allow a lot of re-use of older meshes and animations, and I look forward as well to seeing the improvements that can come as a result of that feature. I'm hopeful that SL2 can grow to be a wonderful thing, and I'm eager to see what you come up with. All I ask is that, as you move forward and lay the groundwork for this new world, you don't fall into the trap of "you don't have to switch if you don't want to". Make us WANT to switch. Make it EASY to switch. And put high priority on maintaining as much backwards compatibility with SL1 as you possibly can. Custom armatures will greatly help with reusing meshes and animations. What can you do to reduce the workload of re-writing scripts? How about textured clothing and skins? The idea posted earlier of allowing some sort of method of matching old SL1 content in users' inventories to new SL2 updated content is a good one. Please make the transition as painless as possible. Don't let yourself become dismayed by the panic; find a way to excite us. Be on our side. Because we, the creators who form the backbone of the virtual world, need to be on your side too.

Thanks. That's definitely our goal and we'll make it easier than competitors will. We also don't want to compromise on how good it can be because of it. Balancing act. 

For all we know, the new world may offer the ability to create content that renders the current content, by comparison, undesirable.  

For many of us, the very fact that the new world might offer something other than a copy of the SL grid, like the competitors have attempted to grow without much success, is enough of a tid bit to get excited about.  I find all the asshurt over the completely unknown odd for a group of grown-ups.  You don't often see people being offered a Mercedez Benz clinging to a one rear end fender bender away from an explosion Ford Pinto..because it has sentimental value.  

I hope that LL will not compromise due to a bunch on whining about what "might or might not happen" and will make it the best damn world ever.  I'm glad to see LL is not putting all of their eggs in one basket...it is just good business practice. 

May the force be with you :matte-motes-wink:

 

 

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Trying to carte blanche apply the Apple/Ipod ruling to the situation here may not apply because Apple has a distinct presence in Europe.  
 


This has been changed in similar ways for virtually the entire range of American companies operating in the European consumer market, and notably so to an accelerating degree in the online services market (which was less regulated.) It is now simply one of the parameters of making such business in Europe.  

Since LL does collect VAT on services rendered to European consumers, they have acknowledged they operate in this part of the consumer market and hence must abide by the applicable legislation. 

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Ebbe Linden wrote:


Teager wrote:

Ebbe,

I believe all that I, and several other creators in this thread, want to convey to you and the SL2 dev team is that we need as much backwards compatibility as we can possibly get between the two grids... because, for us,
not
switching is not an option. If we don't move forward to the new grid, we divide our income in half. Even when we do switch, we as creators will be slowed by having to format our products for two different worlds. We won't be able to put out items as quickly as we could. My avatar projects require a detailed rigged mesh, dozens of textures, 100+ animations, sounds, scripts, HUD designs, addons, accessories, and third-party creator tools to be made, as well as extensive bug testing. Each of my avatars takes me an average of 10 months to complete (working full time, because SL is my full time job). By the time I complete my next avatar, SL2 will be in beta. By the time I've finished the one after that, SL2 may be approaching its launch date. Will those 20 months of work still be worthwhile when SL2 launches?

 

Thanks. That's definitely our goal and we'll make it easier than competitors will. We also don't want to compromise on how good it can be because of it. Balancing act. 

After some deep thinking about what compatibility will actually mean, in reality, I started to think that backward compatibility might be completely convoluted. Please, take a long look at what the reality of asking for this means. First, it can't actually happen, without converting EVERYTHING over. That means scripts too. If creator thinks they can just rewrite their code and just put out the product again, I would assume right away that they are wasting time coding something to work the old way, when there could be infinitely better ways to do it. Is the animation system going to work exactly like it does in SL? I seriously doubt it, and maybe it should not. We also need morphs, which also need to sync or be a part of the animation system. Using what we have in SL is not going to keep s creator competitive at all compared to what is possible. With skeletons, why use the old SL skeleton, which a creator likely contorted it to almost work right, when they could have fingers, wings, a tail, or whatever the heck you want, all animated perfectly. I make avatars also, although most of my sales come from animations. I don't see, even if someone did work on their avatar for 10 months, how that avatar is going to compete with what is possible, with animated faces and all.

Heck, I have a Bruce Lee like avatar in mind that I plan on weighting his nunchakus to a floating set of bones. He'll be able to whip those chucks around, switch hands, and all kinds of tricks that could never be done without a custome skeleton. I can't wait to record the mocaps. I'll also point out, that I'll be able to sell that same exact avatar to the Unity3D game developers, so LL is saving me time if they do this right.

My point is, IMHO, all this energy spent on backward campatibility is energy misspent, for both LL coders, and SL creators. That energy could be much better concentrated on making the best world possible. As a full time creator and merchant, I want as many worlds as possible to sell in. BRING THEM ALL ON!!!! Don't hold back, AT ALL!! Give me more! I'll choose the best 1's to create in. I would much rather have SL live on for another 10 years, and sell in LL's new world with all new and different products. The way I look at it, the 2 worlds being different, even if mainly in content, ensures that both worlds move forward on their own merit. I already sell products across 5 platforms. A few more, especially all brand new and shiny, only makes my mouth water more.

Embrace change! Don't let fear keep true change from happening!

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Gavin Hird wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Trying to carte blanche apply the Apple/Ipod ruling to the situation here may not apply because Apple has a distinct presence in Europe.  
 


This has been changed in similar ways for virtually the entire range of American companies operating in the European consumer market, and notably so to an accelerating degree in the online services market (which was less regulated.) 
It is now simply one of the 
parameters
 of making such business in Europe.  

Since LL does 
collect
 VAT on services rendered to European consumers, they have acknowledged they operate in this part of the 
consumer
 market and hence must abide by the 
applicable
 legislation. 

According to Council Directive 2002/38/EC, non-EU operators are required to register for VAT purposes only when their business involves sales to final consumers. As the Directive says, "This allows them to identify themselves for EU tax purposes in a single European Member State. Non-EU businesses are able to register with a tax authority in a Member State of their choosing. They are required to charge VAT to non-business customers in the EU according to the standard tax rate in the Member State where the customer lives.

So, just for clarity, LL having to levy VAT, in no way whatsoever, constitutes LL being established in an EU Member State (with all the possible ramifications thereof).

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