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I would like to say that as someone who has been an active member of Second Life since April 2004 I hope that they make the new world more realistic economically for more people to own land.

As it stands, a very small % of active SL users own and use virtual land due to the insane fees associated with renting it.

That has lead to a mass majority of users who have nothing but their avatar to express their creativity with. Great for the avatar fashion/skin/hair designers but terrible for the building ware content creators.

When SL was new and "novel" most people rented or owned land. People were building and developing and running events and socialising more. Then the economy fell through the floor in 2008 and since that time less and less people own full regions because who can afford $300 a month JUST for fun?

For what ever reason, LL have not reduced the price of land rental and have driven customers to the Marketplace so in world shopping has become a thing of the past. Again, this impacts the whole social interaction within SL. 

Even as a business owner,  I have had to let go of my own full region (Which cost me £1,200 to "buy") and am renting a Homestead because sales have been deliberately driven to the marketplace and there is no financial incentive to own land for me as a texture store. 

Unless people are selling things that NEED to be sampled in world, the whole point of owning a virtual store in SL has all but vanished.

So we are left with over accessorised avatars who pass time doing shallow things that gets old fast like "dancing in clubs" and its gone so blah since the early days when everyone owned a piece of virtual land they could develop and invite people to and build, explore and eventually want to expand.

Having a "house" if you have a premium account is just lame. You can't furnish it, it's nothing more than a place holder in which you have little freedom to be creative or expand. 

The loss on full region land rentals must have made a HUGE dent in LL's profit margins so I hope they have learned from this. 

 

 

 

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I am intrigued by the muted response to this leak -- although maybe I should be looking at SLU for that!

I think it's great that LL is designing a new VW from scratch. From what I understand (and god knows, that's not much with regard to the tech side), rebuilding from scratch is the only really viable way to really bring LL's virtual offerings up to date. I'm excited (ok, mildly interested) in the possibilities offered by the new tech, and interested to see how different the social and economic model of this new world will be.

BUT the impact of this news on Second Life could prove deadly.

Were I a content creator and merchant who typically spends hundreds of hours producing virtual goods for a world that is, if not scheduled for demolition, at least doomed to obsolescence, knowing that that content might not be compatible with the new virtual world, and available only to what will undoubtedly be a greatly diminished customer base . . . I'd be questioning why on earth I should bother.

Were I a landowner or someone running a sim for profit . . . why would I invest in buying or developing new land when I know that the population of Second Life is going to dip, probably enormously.

My sense is that LL didn't want this information public, and I can well understand why. I also understand why Peter Linden's "official" response to the leak says "don't panic." Although perhaps "panic" is a strong word. This is going to be a slow, lingering death by many cuts.

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Oh, and by the way . . . as Derek and Qie have already suggested, were any proof required of the utter irrelevance of this forum to Linden Lab's communication strategy, the fact that there has not been a single "official" word here or on the blogs would seem to provide it.

Welcome to the backwater.

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Until LL put out a Press release its all speculation,  it was not leaked, it was deliberate so LL can vacuum up ideas, LL prob only started work on this a couple weeks ago and it will be years before its out of beta!

If its out sooner it will be a modded version of the current code with a few extras

lol it took LL a month to fix the new transaction history, that needed  a few database mods!

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Phoebe Avro wrote:

Until LL put out a Press release its all speculation,  it was not leaked, it was deliberate so LL can vacuum up ideas, LL prob only started work on this a couple weeks ago and it will be years before its out of beta!

If its out sooner it will be a modded version of the current code with a few extras

lol it took LL a month to fix the new transaction history, that needed  a few database mods!

If this was a planned leak, LL made (I think) a serious miscalculation.

And if this is supposed to be a sort of disguised "public consultation," they might have managed it a whole lot better than they have.

I'm hoping that they'll be adding a "Don't Panic" button to the viewer, myself. :-)

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

Oh, and by the way . . . as Derek and Qie have already suggested, were any proof required of the utter irrelevance of this forum to Linden Lab's communication strategy, the fact that there has not been a single "official" word here or on the blogs would seem to provide it.

Welcome to the backwater.

Personally, I think they just don't want the general public to really know, as they don't want it to affect the economy. But it is going to happen, so why retard it.

I don't think it will affect the economy much, as I think anybody that has been around long enough wouldn't assume every1 would run over to this new world. We have seen many new worlds come and go. We have seen the hype, and then the fall off. We also know from the big changes LL has made, that it is ridiculous to think they can out do SL, or even understand why it is successful in the first place. IMHO, the secret is obvious, but not if you have a socialist mindset. Let's not forget that LL employees mostly live in San Fran. So, I don't expect the secret to be obvious to them.

What I can't stop thinking, is that the current SL is FAR too complex for LL to recreate it. No1 will be happy with the end result, as it would have to truly be SL but better. I'm not really sure this is possible. Of course it is possible to have a better this or that, but SL has, what seems like, millions of this or thats. At best, it's going to take them years, and I suspect many aspect won't make it over.

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Parrish Ashbourne wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Parrish Ashbourne wrote:


Medhue Simoni wrote:

I want to respond to Ebbe's comment about the new business model and
taxing products
more.

 

You don't need to tax us at all. Think about it Ebbe. A tax on producers economically is saying you want them to create less. You never want to inhibit creation. You are this worlds government and hold a monopoly on many things. Use that monopoly to generate more income. As creators, and merchants, we want to advertise. We are begging to spend money on advertising. What does LL give us? CRAP!!!!! And then way over priced CRAP! Those enhancements for the Marketplace made LL a ton of money, but they SUCK, and are not well done. LL could get alot more out of them, and they should cut the price in half, when it works better. LL also opened up banner spaces on it's website, but it's at ridiculous prices. WTF was LL thinking? Did they not run some numbers? Yeah, it seems they gauge it on other popular websites. The logic escapes me. Again, my point is that LL has a monopoly on advertising and other aspect of SL. Don't tax us more. That is just lazy thinking. Be creative. Make something for us that we'll beg to pay for.

He was saying lower land tax and higher sales tax, as a trade off,  I think that would be a good trade off.  To me the cheaper the cost of land the more people will buy land, and with more land and more people with land, people will buy more.  All so if LL makes more from the marketplace then they have more of a vested interest to make sure it works right, and starting over may be the best way to make that happen.  If the sales tax is just on the marketplace then that might help bring more stores inworld specially with cheaper land, again I think that would be a good thing.

They have yet to lower land cost in SL1.. Why would we believe it would happen in SL2?

until this rolls out every thing is just speculation, Ebbe had posted that they were thinking of lower land tax and higher sales tax as the new business model.  So far the only facts we have is that some thing will happen, some time later.

They have to lower tiers. Even LL knows their current rates are unreasonable, but they fear what a change will disrupt. A New world allows them to do this without upsetting the currect structure.

Yes, things are a long way off, but that is exactly when you should be discussing the business model. I contend that taxing puts LL in a box. The only people LL helps with taxes are themselves, as it will hurt every1 else. See, if LL would create a Mass Media feature for this new SL, that would not only generate wealth for LL, but also generate wealth for the merchants, and better products for consumers. Again, if they just tax us, it has no wealth generating affect. The only people that benefit are LL. When you understand that a product sold and purchased voluntarily, creates real wealth between all individuals involved. It is sustainable, and will likely generate far more than any reasonable tax that the public would not revolt over.

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Phoebe Avro wrote:

I think its a bad judgement on behalf of the ceo to 'leak' it at a 3rd party viewer devs meeting, surly the place to announce it would be on LL's website and the SL blog, but nothing realy changes at LL does it!

I don't disagree, but I'm not sure LL looks at it that way. I think they thought it would come out eventually, and Ebbe probably thought why not mention it now, as it is relevant to the topic. The project was started way before Ebbe got here. So, imagine, you are the CEO, and there is this big secret. You might be an open policy CEO, but when do you mention it, and is it really relevant to the whole SL community. Or, is it only relevant to merchants like myself, or land owners, like myself. Personally, I would hope that this would come out in a Content Creators user group meeting, but we don't have 1 of those right now. How it came out doesn't really bother me. The only part that bothers me, is that we, the people that generate wealth in SL selling products, aren't directly part of the process of creating a new world.

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Phoebe Avro wrote:

OK i have a group of over 4000 and i just asked who knows about this and one person said its got something to do with facebook another quoted oculus rift ^^

You are certainly right, generally, I think. But this news broke yesterday evening. And it IS going to filter out, particularly to those who build and sell content here.

I don't actually think there's going to be a "panic." But I do see some serious attrition in SL, especially as the release date for the new VW draws closer.

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Medhue Simoni wrote:


LaskyaClaren wrote:

Oh, and by the way . . . as Derek and Qie have already suggested, were any proof required of the utter irrelevance of this forum to Linden Lab's communication strategy, the fact that there has not been a single "official" word here or on the blogs would seem to provide it.

Welcome to the backwater.

Personally, I think they just don't want the general public to really know, as they don't want it to affect the economy. But it is going to happen, so why retard it.

I don't think it will affect the economy much, as I think anybody that has been around long enough wouldn't assume every1 would run over to this new world. We have seen many new worlds come and go. We have seen the hype, and then the fall off. We also know from the big changes LL has made, that it is ridiculous to think they can out do SL, or even understand why it is successful in the first place. IMHO, the secret is obvious, but not if you have a socialist mindset. Let's not forget that LL employees mostly live in San Fran. So, I don't expect the secret to be obvious to them.

What I can't stop thinking, is that the current SL is FAR too complex for LL to recreate it. No1 will be happy with the end result, as it would have to truly be SL but better. I'm not really sure this is possible. Of course it is possible to have a better this or that, but SL has, what seems like, millions of this or thats. At best, it's going to take them years, and I suspect many aspect won't make it over.

It makes no sense, really, to have publicized this intentionally this early on, particularly as it is going to create a great deal of uncertainty.

Speaking as someone who does have a "socialist mindset" :-) . . . I think that ideological change I'd fear is not one to a more "socialist" model, but rather a much more neoliberal "corporatist"  one. That seems to be the direction indicated, certainly, by the shift to a close source model. Look for LL to have much more tight control over the economy, content, and possibly even the social dynamic, than it does now.

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LillyBeth Filth wrote:

I would like to say that as someone who has been an active member of Second Life since April 2004 I hope that they make the new world more realistic economically for more people to own land.

As it stands, a very small % of active SL users own and use virtual land due to the insane fees associated with renting it.

That has lead to a mass majority of users who have nothing but their avatar to express their creativity with. Great for the avatar fashion/skin/hair designers but terrible for the building ware content creators.

When SL was new and "novel" most people rented or owned land. People were building and developing and running events and socialising more. Then the economy fell through the floor in 2008 and since that time less and less people own full regions because who can afford $300 a month JUST for fun?

For what ever reason, LL have not reduced the price of land rental and have driven customers to the Marketplace so in world shopping has become a thing of the past. Again, this impacts the whole social interaction within SL. 

Even as a business owner,  I have had to let go of my own full region (Which cost me £1,200 to "buy") and am renting a Homestead because sales have been deliberately driven to the marketplace and there is no financial incentive to own land for me as a texture store. 

Unless people are selling things that NEED to be sampled in world, the whole point of owning a virtual store in SL has all but vanished.

So we are left with over accessorised avatars who pass time doing shallow things that gets old fast like "dancing in clubs" and its gone so blah since the early days when everyone owned a piece of virtual land they could develop and invite people to and build, explore and eventually want to expand.

Having a "house" if you have a premium account is just lame. You can't furnish it, it's nothing more than a place holder in which you have little freedom to be creative or expand. 

The loss on full region land rentals must have made a HUGE dent in LL's profit margins so I hope they have learned from this. 

 

 

 

I hear many merchants blame the Marketplace for the loss of land owners in SL. I'm not sure this is accurate. It is my experience that LL destroyed land ownership when they started messing with the inworld Search Engine. When I started out Jan 2007, I sold my first animation in a skybox. Only because of how few animators there were, did people find me. I learned very early on that land made a big difference. Immediately, when I had earned enough, I rented a decent size plot of land where I could put my business name as the name of the land, and add a description. This all went into the search engine and immediately got me many more customers. See, back then, we got around by using the Search Engine. Within 6 months, I moved to a much large plot on a private sim. I saw that the more land I owned, the higher my ranking was in the Search Engine. Eventually, I started checking out my competition a little, to see how I could better do things. Land was a huge deal to the metrics of the Search Engine. Eventually, I bought my own sim, on the Mainland, and when that happened, if you typed in just the word Animation into the inworld search engine, I was ranked 10th. That was the effect of the land being such a huge metric in the search engine. No matter what your business, if you were so successful that you were able to purchase more and more land, you would be ranked very high in all the keywords in your land description. This put all the best merchants at the top of the search engine, and customer could easily find what they want, and from the best creators. When LL started messing with the inworld search engine to try and make it more "fair", they destroyed the incentive to own more land. They shot themself in the foot, and today they still don't understand this. Every1 lost when LL decided to touch it. The original inworld search engine before they changed it, was a custom search engine created by a resident in the open source program, or that is how I remember reading about it.

 

Soon after I bought my first sim, I did a survey of all my customers. It was all voluntary, and they just filled out a survey questionaire inside of SL. I stopped the survey when I hit 1000. 70% of all those people found me by typing the word "Animation" into the search engine. 15% found me by typing some variation of animation and another word. 15% found me through some other means than the search engine.

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Medhue Simoni wrote:


 IMHO, the secret is obvious, but not if you have a socialist mindset. Let's not forget that LL employees mostly live in San Fran. So, I don't expect the secret to be obvious to them.

 

LL makes tons of $ of course the secret is obvious to them.   Funny that some one who seams against socialist is complaining about a corporation making $.

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LaskyaClaren wrote:


Medhue Simoni wrote:


LaskyaClaren wrote:

Oh, and by the way . . . as Derek and Qie have already suggested, were any proof required of the utter irrelevance of this forum to Linden Lab's communication strategy, the fact that there has not been a single "official" word here or on the blogs would seem to provide it.

Welcome to the backwater.

Personally, I think they just don't want the general public to really know, as they don't want it to affect the economy. But it is going to happen, so why retard it.

I don't think it will affect the economy much, as I think anybody that has been around long enough wouldn't assume every1 would run over to this new world. We have seen many new worlds come and go. We have seen the hype, and then the fall off. We also know from the big changes LL has made, that it is ridiculous to think they can out do SL, or even understand why it is successful in the first place. IMHO, the secret is obvious, but not if you have a socialist mindset. Let's not forget that LL employees mostly live in San Fran. So, I don't expect the secret to be obvious to them.

What I can't stop thinking, is that the current SL is FAR too complex for LL to recreate it. No1 will be happy with the end result, as it would have to truly be SL but better. I'm not really sure this is possible. Of course it is possible to have a better this or that, but SL has, what seems like, millions of this or thats. At best, it's going to take them years, and I suspect many aspect won't make it over.

It makes no sense, really, to have publicized this intentionally this early on, particularly as it is going to create a great deal of uncertainty.

Speaking as someone who does have a "socialist mindset" :-) . . . I think that ideological change I'd fear is not one to a more "socialist" model, but rather a much more neoliberal "corporatist"  one. That seems to be the direction indicated, certainly, by the shift to a close source model. Look for LL to have much more tight control over the economy, content, and possibly even the social dynamic, than it does now.

I actually don't have a problem with the socialist mindset, as long as it isn't forced upon me, as I would never use force against others to get my way. Economically tho, I do have a problem with it, as it promotes unsustainable practices.

As far as what LL implied, I don't see it the same way. I think you are reading into more than is reasonably possible. I think, yes, it will be more controlled, but more because of the lack of feature and functionality. It's going to take them a good few years to even get something usable to any of our standards. If it is more Corporate, that will be because of the federal government, not because of LL.

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Lexia Moonstone wrote:


Medhue Simoni wrote:


 IMHO, the secret is obvious, but not if you have a socialist mindset. Let's not forget that LL employees mostly live in San Fran. So, I don't expect the secret to be obvious to them.

 

LL makes tons of $ of course the secret is obvious to them.   Funny that some one who seams against socialist is complaining about a corporation making $.

I'm not complaining about them making money, I'm talking about how the best ways to do that is. I'm not against a monthly listing fee for products on the Marketplace. What I'm saying is that just taxing is a lazy solution, and always is. It's the lack of a real solution. To tax is a socialist solution, not a free market voluntary solution, that produces wealth between all involved.

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Medhue Simoni wrote:


Lexia Moonstone wrote:


Medhue Simoni wrote:


 IMHO, the secret is obvious, but not if you have a socialist mindset. Let's not forget that LL employees mostly live in San Fran. So, I don't expect the secret to be obvious to them.

 

LL makes tons of $ of course the secret is obvious to them.   Funny that some one who seams against socialist is complaining about a corporation making $.

I'm not complaining about them making money, I'm talking about how the best ways to do that is. I'm not against a monthly listing fee for products on the Marketplace. What I'm saying is that just taxing is a lazy solution, and always is. It's the lack of a real solution. To tax is a socialist solution, not a free market voluntary solution, that produces wealth between all involved.

kind of like toll roads vs gas tax?  I'd rather pay at the pump much more convenient for me, and saves me time getting from point a to point b with out stopping to pay all the time, and wasting more gas as you sit in the toll line, great free market solution.

  LL is not a government it's a corporation Ebbe using the tax word was not best word to use it's a business expense.  Selling on the market place is not mandatory, you could just sell inworld for free, or on an other platform, or even on the internet from your own web page.  If any one is being lazy it's some one who has a marketplace store and lets LL run and maintain the system while they just sit back and collect $ from sales. 

How is a listing fee lass lazy then a % of slaes ? it take the same amount of effort on LLs part once the system in place.  LL charges a set up fee/tax and a monthly tire charge/tax for land dose' that make them lazy too?

Really sounds like your hung up on some republican/tea party talking points, and name calling, why is every one you disagree with politicly lazy?  You sound like a broken record how lazy is that...

Could LL do things better sure, but it's not because their lazy socialist from San Fransisco.  Wright brothers may have made the first airplane to fly, but it sure din't meet all the requirements for a usefull airplane, must have been because they were lazy soicialist from Ohio,  that they din't get it right the first time.

 

 

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

I hear many merchants blame the Marketplace for the loss of land owners in SL. I'm not sure this is accurate. It is my experience that LL destroyed land ownership when they started messing with the inworld Search Engine. When I started out Jan 2007, I sold my first animation in a skybox. Only because of how few animators there were, did people find me. I learned very early on that land made a big difference. Immediately, when I had earned enough, I rented a decent size plot of land where I could put my business name as the name of the land, and add a description. This all went into the search engine and immediately got me many more customers. See, back then, we got around by using the Search Engine. Within 6 months, I moved to a much large plot on a private sim. I saw that the more land I owned, the higher my ranking was in the Search Engine. Eventually, I started checking out my competition a little, to see how I could better do things. Land was a huge deal to the metrics of the Search Engine. Eventually, I bought my own sim, on the Mainland, and when that happened, if you typed in just the word Animation into the inworld search engine, I was ranked 10th. That was the effect of the land being such a huge metric in the search engine. No matter what your business, if you were so successful that you were able to purchase more and more land, you would be ranked very high in all the keywords in your land description. This put all the best merchants at the top of the search engine, and customer could easily find what they want, and from the best creators. When LL started messing with the inworld search engine to try and make it more "fair", they destroyed the incentive to own more land. They shot themself in the foot, and today they still don't understand this. Every1 lost when LL decided to touch it. The original inworld search engine before they changed it, was a custom search engine created by a resident in the open source program, or that is how I remember reading about it.

 

Soon after I bought my first sim, I did a survey of all my customers. It was all voluntary, and they just filled out a survey questionaire inside of SL. I stopped the survey when I hit 1000. 70% of all those people found me by typing the word "Animation" into the search engine. 15% found me by typing some variation of animation and another word. 15% found me through some other means than the search engine.

You are mistaken, Medhue. When you joined in January 2007, the search rankings were *only* about traffic. That was the *only* factor for rankings. Land size was totally irreleveant. Those rankings were gamed to death by bots, camping, etc. I enjoyed partaking in all of that :)

Later they leased the Google Search Appliance (GSA), which produced much better results because it used many factors for rankings, just as the Google search engine does. LL were unable to mess with it. They could do little things externally, but that's all. It's possible that they could have fitted in a bit of land size by adding something external but, if they did, it definitately made only a small difference. I got places up the rankings by using 4x4 plots of land. I thoroughly enjoyed gaming those results :)

After that - not too long ago - they started to use an open souirce engine, which they can mess with. I stopped platying with search before they got it though, so I've no idea if they've incorporated land size into the ranking factors. What I do know is that what you wrote about land size and the search rankings is not right, unless you only meant with the current engine, which I don't know about. It's definitely not right concerning the engine you arrived to in 2007, or the GSA that followed it.

 

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Lexia Moonstone wrote:

LL is not a government it's a corporation Ebbe using the tax word was not best word to use it's a business expense. 


Actually, it hadn't occurred to me, but that is a rather interesting choice of expression. Does LL now see itself as a kind of government"?

 

As regards Medhue's faith in the wealth-generating potential of a virtual free marketplace . . . I'm still waiting for the wealth that should have been generated by all of the hair and clothing I've bought on the SL MP, which has, to date, mostly left me feeling impoverished rather than the other. ;-)

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LaskyaClaren wrote:


Lexia Moonstone wrote:

LL is not a government it's a corporation Ebbe using the tax word was not best word to use it's a business expense. 


Actually, it hadn't occurred to me, but that is a rather interesting choice of expression. Does LL now see itself as a kind of government"?

 

As regards Medhue's faith in the wealth-generating potential of a virtual free marketplace . . . I'm still waiting for the wealth that should have been generated by all of the hair and clothing I've bought on the SL MP, which has, to date, mostly left me feeling impoverished rather than the other. ;-)

There is governor linden,  I have to wonder what kind of government LL considers it's self?  Before my time in SL it sounds like LL use to have more voting from the residents on issues and changes. 

I certanly feel your shopping woes, I too spend a fare amount more then I should here, and like it lol   :)

 

 

 

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irihapeti wrote:

Qie. i just add on here

i think we now know where the experience permissions went

Ah, haha, you know me too well. I've been thinking about exactly that since I first read about this new virtual world plan. But hope springs eternal: I'd given up on experience permissions so many times already that I'm still hoping they'll make an appearance in SL Classic before they turn pull the plug on this place.

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Lexia Moonstone wrote:


LaskyaClaren wrote:


Lexia Moonstone wrote:

LL is not a government it's a corporation Ebbe using the tax word was not best word to use it's a business expense. 


Actually, it hadn't occurred to me, but that is a rather interesting choice of expression. Does LL now see itself as a kind of government"?

 

As regards Medhue's faith in the wealth-generating potential of a virtual free marketplace . . . I'm still waiting for the wealth that should have been generated by all of the hair and clothing I've bought on the SL MP, which has, to date, mostly left me feeling impoverished rather than the other. ;-)

There is governor linden,  I have to wonder what kind of government LL considers it's self?  Before my time in SL it sounds like LL use to have more voting from the residents on issues and changes. 

I certanly feel your shopping woes, I too spend a fare amount more then I should here, and like it lol  
:)

 

 

 

The Governess (yes she is a woman) has not been seen is several years.

Some suspect she is being held captive in a secret dungeon under the Governor's Mansion.

 

@Laskya.

LL seeing itself as a Gov't does make some sense.  Phillip's "I'm building a World" credo.

A corporation roleplaying as a Gov't.

Remember, corporations are people too.  :(  

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Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Problem:  SL Growth is stagnent.

Cause:  Too many technical problems that can not be fixed without gutting it.

Conclusion:  It's Insane for us to keep throwing money at something that can't be fixed (doing the same thing over and over again).

Solution:  Build a New World from scratch avoiding all the pitfalls in the current world.

My Commentary:  This may be the sanest thing for LL to do.

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