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Linden Lab is building a NEW virtual world

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Ok let's cut to the chase and here is the bottom line, I hope LL reads this because this is and will remain unanswered:

 

Nobody is really opposed to a better platform that will make the user experience better.

What people are opposed to is the investment everyone has made into their assets / inventory from

a financial perspective. If we ( the sl users ) did not by stuff and make an economy for LL to profit, LL could

not afford the new platform. So now LL could press the delete button eventually on our assets to build a more

expensive delete button for the future.

 

To Linden Labs: How are you going to compensate us for this if we cannot transfer our assets?

 

Simple enough question, simple understandable answer required . . .  . . . .  . .

 

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And another thing, and this is fact . . . .

 

If you loose everyone's assets, they will leave SL in droves. Who in their right mind would suffer that loss and forgive you?

Not me!

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Gaia Clary wrote:

Well, i am first of all interested in how content upload will be supported at all.

... All of that comes before "how many uv layers are supported" and such 

Since the avatar is such a key feature of a virtual world - I'd probably say it is the most important feature, the avatar design and its rigging and skinning are some of the most fundamental design parameters of the system. This comes way before worrying about how to upload content. 

It also takes very long time to develop new skins and supporting layers for a new avatar, therefore creators need all this information very early. It can largely be tested outside of the new runtime in suffiecienty advanced modellers.

My bet is that the most common upload format will be some version of collada. 

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Gavin Hird wrote:


Gaia Clary wrote:

Well, i am first of all interested in how content upload will be supported at all.

... All of that comes before "how many uv layers are supported" and such 

Since the avatar is such a key feature of a virtual world - I'd probably say it is the most important feature, the avatar design and its rigging and skinning are some of the most fundamental design parameters of the system. This comes way before worrying about how to upload content.

I agree with you that this kind of design parameters are important for content creators. And certainly these things are discussed early in the process and without worrying about the transfer formats in first place.

But i see myself more in the role of your Virtual Parcel Service (VIPS if you like so :matte-motes-sunglasses-1: ).

So in short its us content movers who need to know which vehicles (formats) we are allowed to use to get your content to its destination. So creators worry about design specifications, and your VIPS meanwhile worry about how to get your creations to the target  :matte-motes-wink-tongue:

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I keep hearing about how this new platform will focus on content creators as king. I want to know is how us poor schmucks (like me who have shelled out real money for almost 8 years now as a Premium member) who aren't merchants will figure into the equation? The fact that the CEO spoke first with the "opinion leaders and VIPs" over at SLU speaks volumes, IMO.

Yeah I know that without content there's no VW but, I also know that without people to create for there's likewise no VW.  Sorry but, I don't want to be seen as just another "consumer"; an ignorant open maw that takes whatever gets shovelled down its throat, important only because it has a wallet attached to it.

All I know for sure is that whatever LL is working on had better be damned compelling for me to give up potentially 8 years plus worth of accumulated knowledge (and inventory) and they'd better start making that case as soon as possible. Otherwise as news of this gets more widely distributed people will panic and will start making plans to leave what will be seen as a sinking ship.

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Gaia Clary wrote:
  • Maybe there will be a standard skeleton (hopefully not)

I'm very curious to know why you think a standard skeleton is bad? Human skeletons are all basically the same. If every1 made their own Human skeleton, then animations could not be used universally by every1. Even Unity has their Mecanim system that standardizes any human animation to fit any character. Personally, I would like a standard skeleton, and the ability to import my own.

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Vinten wrote:

Ok let's cut to the chase and here is the bottom line, I hope LL reads this because this is and will remain unanswered:

 

Nobody is really opposed to a better platform that will make the user experience better.

What people are opposed to is the investment everyone has made into their assets / inventory from

a financial perspective. If we ( the sl users ) did not by stuff and make an economy for LL to profit, LL could

not afford the new platform. So now LL could press the delete button eventually on our assets to build a more

expensive delete button for the future.

 

To Linden Labs: How are you going to compensate us for this if we cannot transfer our assets?

 Simple enough question, simple understandable answer required . 

Quite frankly, that is such a sefl-centred attitude. Haven't you had pleasure from the things you bought in SL? Did you genuinely imagine that the things you bought would last forever once you'd paid a pittance for each one? You've had plenty of pleasure from each item and you should be very pleased to have had all those pleasures for such a very small cost. So, if some, most, or even all of your stuff can't be moved to SL2, just be very pleased that you've had all that enjoyment for such a small cost.

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Deej Kasshiki wrote:

I keep hearing about how this new platform will focus on content creators as king. I want to know is how us poor schmucks (like me who have shelled out real money for almost 8 years now as a Premium member) who aren't merchants will figure into the equation? The fact that the CEO spoke first with the "opinion leaders and VIPs" over at SLU speaks volumes, IMO.

Yeah I know that without content there's no VW but, I also know that without people to create for there's likewise no VW.  Sorry but, I don't want to be seen as just another "consumer"; an ignorant open maw that takes whatever gets shovelled down its throat, important only because it has a wallet attached to it.

All I know for sure is that whatever LL is working on had better be
damned compelling
for me to give up potentially 8 years plus worth of accumulated knowledge (and inventory) and they'd better start making that case as soon as possible. Otherwise as news of this gets more widely distributed people will panic and will start making plans to leave what will be seen as a sinking ship.

When the content creators are king, that really means the consumers are king. Content creators have to cater to the consumers. The reality is that creators are slaves to the consumer's will.

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Deej Kasshiki wrote:

I keep hearing about how this new platform will focus on content creators as king.
I want to know is how us poor schmucks (like me who have shelled out real money for almost 8 years now as a Premium member) who aren't merchants will figure into the equation?

How about being very pleased that you've enjoyed SL for almost 8 years, and the cost of the enjoyment is the money you spent having that enjoyment. When looked at that way, it's been incredibly cheap enjoyment, even if you don't get anything back by moving stuff from SL1 to SL2.

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Medhue Simoni wrote:


Gaia Clary wrote:
  • Maybe there will be a standard skeleton (hopefully not)

I'm very curious to know why you think a standard skeleton is bad? Human skeletons are all basically the same. If every1 made their own Human skeleton, then animations could not be used universally by every1. Even Unity has their Mecanim system that standardizes any human animation to fit any character. Personally, I would like a standard skeleton, and the ability to import my own.

I see how a default skeleton can make it potentially easier for reusing animations and garments even. However this could at least in theory be an evolutionary process.

And having the option to create custom skeletons is certainly a better thing than bending the default skeleton into shape as we need to do now (This was what i had in mind in first place...)

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You asked:

1. Landscaping and building my parcel (Frank Lloyd Wright inspired "Falling Water") has taken years and at least $1,000 to build and get right. Will I be able to move en masse this work and contents, or will LL make it just disappear?

2. Laptops with Intel graphics were purchased by many of my friends a few years ago, "the latest and greatest with longer battery life". But they never worked with SL, which none of them realized in advance. Since they are not made of money, they simply left SL forever. Sad, eh?  Will the new world finish off the rest of us without the kick-ass PCs your LL engineers all have?

3. What if the "new world" fails to draw people away from their HUGE investments in old SL? Remember, 80% of SL isCHAT with a wonderful community (now half the size it once was), with the world itself being fun but NOT the core of SL imho.

First, SL will be around for a long time. Years. Some things will be possible to move over, other things not. More details on this over time as we figure out more details. So no, it won't just disappear. 

We're going to make the next generation faster so expect things to work equal or better with like for liek content. But we're also adding a lot of capabilites for content creators to create much cooler stuff that could decrease performance. 

I'm not going to contemplate failure. The SL community is not half the size, not even close, maybe for your community but not in overall metrics. Still going strong. And we clearly want to move identities and communities forward as well as we can as that is core to the success today. 

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I'm not sure what you are suggesting or asking. SL is donig great, it's better than it's ever been. And we want to make something that's even greater, but to make it increadible there are areas where we just have to move forward and do some things in new ways and thus can't guarantee 100% backwards compatability. And it will be years. 

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It will take a long time. So SL will continue to be there and we'll continue to improve it. And we'll do the absolute best we can to help you all get going on the new product when it's ready. How exactly and when exactly and how long etc. we will find out with time. But we have to make this invesment in the future to make what we all enjoy much much better. 

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Medhue Simoni wrote:


Deej Kasshiki wrote:

I keep hearing about how this new platform will focus on content creators as king. I want to know is how us poor schmucks (like me who have shelled out real money for almost 8 years now as a Premium member) who aren't merchants will figure into the equation? The fact that the CEO spoke first with the "opinion leaders and VIPs" over at SLU speaks volumes, IMO.

Yeah I know that without content there's no VW but, I also know that without people to create for there's likewise no VW.  Sorry but, I don't want to be seen as just another "consumer"; an ignorant open maw that takes whatever gets shovelled down its throat, important only because it has a wallet attached to it.

All I know for sure is that whatever LL is working on had better be
damned compelling
for me to give up potentially 8 years plus worth of accumulated knowledge (and inventory) and they'd better start making that case as soon as possible. Otherwise as news of this gets more widely distributed people will panic and will start making plans to leave what will be seen as a sinking ship.

When the content creators are king, that really means the consumers are king. Content creators have to cater to the consumers. The reality is that creators are slaves to the consumer's will.

Funny that, in real life, so many of those CEO "slaves" are making in a few hours what one of their consumers might take a year to earn, eh?

Sorry, but I don't want to be represented by self-serving "slaves." I want to represent myself, thank you very much.

And I don't need your paternalistic reassurance that content creators are really looking after my own interests: I am articulate enough to express those myself.

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

Some things will be possible to move over, other things not. 


Okay that's what I needed to hear -- in part, since I am guessing if anything can be ported it would be mesh, and mesh is what I make. 

Now waiting to hear if that means my customers can port mesh they did not create from their inventories, or that mesh creators will be able to port their stuff.

 

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Medhue Simoni wrote:


When the content creators are king, that really means the consumers are king. Content creators have to cater to the consumers. The reality is that creators are slaves to the consumer's will.

False, there are lots of people that build for fun, or even if trying to make  $ only build what they want.  I all so rarely do custom work, when I do it's not about $,  I only do it when the project is interesting to me and I don't charge them for my time just the normal price of the item.  You can provide excellent customer service without being a slave, if your a slave to customer's then there's a motive to say what ever they want to here even if it's not true, I don't do business like that.  You have convinced me I have no interest in your free market views if they enslave people, no one should ever be a slave.

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I hope for this as well. It means that content creators are solely responsible for the appearance of the avatar and there's no longer a need to rely on LL to release avatar updates. As it stands right now, any content creators who want to make avatars basically have to hide the default avatar and then throw something over what exists already. Once you get out of humanoid shapes, you're in trouble. 

Not to mention custom skeletons open up possibilities like animated body parts. That would be a game changer from XXX market to people who want neko cat ears. 

I would hope we would see something along the lines of a default avatar and skeleton provided. Then, animation vendors would make animations for the default skeleton. And then, people who make avatars would want to use the default skeleton as often as possible to have the most amount of animations provided for that avatar.

And then it still leaves the possibility open of allowing custom animations and custom skeletons to be added. I don't see it getting horribly fragmented. I have no doubt someone will try and lock people down  into proprietary avatars and animations, but that's going to be a very difficult battle to have to fight against all the animation vendors who are designed for a default avatar.

At least, those are my thoughts on things. It seems like some of this is being taken too hard again. Custom skeletons doesn't mean that we won't have a default avatar that is primarily designed around. It means that we will have a default avatar with the option of using custom skeletons and animations.

If there is no default avatar, skeleton, and animations, people will just log into SL 2.0 as clouds until they buy things...

I'm just throwing out baseless conjecture at this point, but if Ebbe is reading hopefully he can either give us hints that something like this is coming or that my ideas could go toward SL 2.0 if they haven't been thought of already.

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

I'm not sure what you are suggesting or asking. SL is
donig
great, it's better than it's ever been. And we want to make something that's even greater, but to make it
increadible
there are areas where we just have to move forward and do some things in new ways and thus can't guarantee 100% backwards
compatability.
And it will be years. 

Now you're just making yourself look foolish, as well as demonstrating a lack of care for your readers here.

Is Peter not around to vet your stuff?

"ain't it hard when you're all alone in the center ring?"

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Just wanted to say thanks for stopping by and writing. I have been reading and listening all over and obviously a lot of folks did NOT do any research shifting facts from conjecture before stating their anxieties publicly and loudly.

There are LOTS of folks that are not up in arms and dancing around frantically in circles. I just came from a meeting where no one was worried, just interested to see what the future holds. Some of us that look at the big picture as a matter of course had this in our most likely scenario backpack, so it is good to see that the puzzle pieces connected as we suspected.

 

 

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LaskyaClaren wrote:



Funny that, in real life, so many of those CEO "slaves" are making in a few hours what one of their consumers might take a year to earn, eh?

Sorry, but I don't want to be represented by self-serving "slaves." I want to represent myself, thank you very much.

And I don't need your paternalistic reassurance that content creators are 
really
looking after my own interests: I am articulate enough to express those myself.

Money and profits are really a measure of how much you supply the consumer/public with what they need or want. In the case of something like SL, it is supplying joy/wants/needs to hundreds of thousands of people. Since this is the case, you would expect the CEO to make a good salary, and I'm not against that at all, especially when they are busting their a$$.

If your interests lines up with many other consumers, then a merchant would be dumb not to cater to you.

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Parrish Ashbourne wrote:


Medhue Simoni wrote:


When the content creators are king, that really means the consumers are king. Content creators have to cater to the consumers. The reality is that creators are slaves to the consumer's will.

False, there are lots of people that build for fun, or even if trying to make  $ only build what they want.  I all so rarely do custom work, when I do it's not about $,  I only do it when the project is interesting to me and I don't charge them for my time just the normal price of the item.  You can provide excellent customer service without being a slave, if your a slave to customer's then there's a motive to say what ever they want to here even if it's not true, I don't do business like that.  You have convinced me I have no interest in your free market views if they enslave people, no one should ever be a slave.

Oh, how 1 word can slant a whole statement. I meant a willing slave, if that helps.

The free market is all about voluntary exchange. It is only when an exchange is voluntary that both parties benefit. Now, I could voluntarily be a slave to a certain market, because of the profits that I would gain. Yes, it is quite easy to decide that you will only work on what you want to, but that is likely not going to be highly profitable. As I said in an earlier comment, profits are really a measure of how many people benefit from what you do.

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DesperadoReprise wrote:


Ebbe Linden wrote:

I'm not sure what you are suggesting or asking. SL is
donig
great, it's better than it's ever been. And we want to make something that's even greater, but to make it
increadible
there are areas where we just have to move forward and do some things in new ways and thus can't guarantee 100% backwards
compatability.
And it will be years. 

Now you're just making yourself look foolish, as well as demonstrating a lack of care for your readers here.

Is Peter not around to vet your stuff?

"ain't it hard when you're all alone in the center ring?"

I'd rather read what Ebbe has to say than read posts about spelling mistakes, but whilst we are on the subject, your use of the British vernacular "ain't", rather than the more universally acceptable "isn't" suggests that you really should have spelled "center" as "centre".

"Pep, is that you?"

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"...there are areas where we just have to move forward and do some things in new ways and thus can't guarantee 100% backwards compatability..."


Please clarify: What areas? Is there a migration plan? And if there is one, why will Linden Lab run two competing platforms at the same time - which would be an economical absurdity? Under this more than uncertain circumstances, can you honestly encourage content creators in Second Life to continue with development for Second Life 1.0?

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So in the near future SL V1 is going to continue to be maintained as a ghettoland, a SuperZindra, for Adult users who won't be allowed to interfere with the children who are going to be allowed free run of the V2 NeoDisneyLand.

That'll please the Ladies Who Lunch and all those other anti-BDSM types.

And I am sure Utherverse will organise a welcome party for those Adults who feel that LL has let them down by marooning them on a stagnant island with a smaller potential market.

Also, the paedophiles are probably organising their migration strategies to V2 from Club Penguin as we speak!

Go on, Ebbe, tell us that the membership age restrictions aren't going to be lifted in V2, and that "Adult" content will not be banned.

Or are those just more rumours that you haven't got around to categorically denying yet? Nor will.

"the sun was sinking low down"

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

Money and profits are really a measure of how much you supply the consumer/public with what they need or want. In the case of something like SL, it is supplying joy/wants/needs to hundreds of thousands of people. Since this is the case, you would expect the CEO to make a good salary, and I'm not against that at all,
especially when they are busting their a$$
.


As opposed to all of those lazy-ass sweatshop workers who earn pennies an hour in appalling conditions to produce the goods that finance those big, well-earned salaries, right?

 


Medhue Simoni wrote:

If your interests lines up with many other consumers, then a merchant would be dumb not to cater to you.

 


Right. And if my interests don't line up with enough people to make catering to them sufficiently profitable, I'm pretty much SOL, no? Democracy -- which should be the real cornerstone of how we determine things in society -- is predicated on the notion that the interests of the minority are not overlooked or repressed. 

 

 

However, let's get back to SL, which is a rather different ballgame.

Your argument is premised on two false assumptions:

 

 

  1. The interests of the consumer are identical with those of the merchant. Well, sometimes they are, but a great deal of the time they are not. For instance, I'd like to see protections for consumers in SL, so that we can't be merrily ripped off by merchants and landowners without recourse, as sometimes happens now. "Caveat Emptor" serves your needs, not mine.

     

  2. Second Life is primarily about consumerism. Well, for some people it certainly is, and there's not much question that it is important. However, while I do buy things, that's not why I am here. What makes SL interesting for me, and for a great many others, are the things -- the art, the music, the reconstructions and gorgeous sims -- that are produced rather selflessly by people who aren't in it for the money. I myself ran a "business" for three years in SL,  making online literature available for reading for between 1 and 5 L$ per book. I spent 100s of hours building those books, and, given the price at which I sold them, I sure didn't get rich. But I did it because I wanted to. Thank god, there are many others who feel the same way, or SL would be a giant strip mall.

To reiterate: I too have a stake in this community, and I want my voice heard too. MY voice; not yours, claiming to represent me and the other unwashed masses.

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