Linden Lab is building a NEW virtual world

[Gavin Hird]

They have said they want to attract customer audiences in the order of tens to hundreds of millions. This alone mandates a movement from fringe to "normality" in the customer base. There simply are not that much fringe out there.

Normality varies significantly between continents and countries. 

For the EU countries (I suppose we can say Europe) it is not normal to:

• have English as your first language
• have English as your second language
• celebrate halloween
• celebrate thanksgiving
• be in a master/slave relationship, and to flaunt it in public would be close to exceptional
• bleep over swear words and such in media

It is normal to:

• have very strong privacy and consumer protection legislation 

• for women to sunbathe topless
• to display pieces of art withhout covering genitalia and breasts
• have 3-4 weeks of vacation every year
• have a publicly funded health care system
• have a political system with more than two parties
• celebrate Christmas and not so much other "holidays" - meaning we can say Merry Christmas without anyone being offended
• not have so much disposable income available for use on SecondLife
• have a cheaper Andriod phone than a more expensive phone from Apple

Only within this very narrow, and you can say selective definition of normality, you will observe there are a number of differences in what Europeans regard normal contra what is normal in SecondLife as communicated by Linden Lab in activites, advertising, TOS and policies. 

Just to give you an idea...

[Monalisa Robbiani]

Why taking this discussion to a pseudo political US vs. Europe level? I see no point in doing that. Besides ... usually Europe is considered much more liberal regarding alternative lifestyles than the US, so you're contradicting yourself. If a virtual world wants to appeal to the masses, you have to offer a Disney version. That doesn't mean that adult content has to go (and it won't, if it will, someone else will make an adult world). Oh and besides ... I don't bathe top less, I don't show genitalia on art, I speak English, I have an expensive phone, I don't celebrate Christmas and I have disposable income. I think you are talking about yourself and call that normal.

[Gavin Hird]

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Monalisa Robbiani wrote:

... usually Europe is considered much more liberal regarding alternative lifestyles than the US

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That is highly dependant on which part of Europe you are talking about. It can swing both ways. 

What I am saying is that for SLv2 to appeal to the mass market desired, one have to accomodate more shades of normality than what is the current state (which I find pretty US centric.) It is easy to accomodate, and it is easy to grow on if done right, including accomodating both adult and the gaming aspect if you wanted. That is just a matter of how things are organized (both legally and technically.) 

If everything is organized, legalized and produced out of California, it will be a dull, watered down experience IMO. :-)

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Monalisa Robbiani wrote:

... usually Europe is considered much more liberal regarding alternative lifestyles than the US

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That is highly dependant on which part of Europe you are talking about. It can swing both ways. 

What I am saying is that for SLv2 to appeal to the mass market desired, one have to accomodate more shades of normality than what is the current state (which I find pretty US centric.) It is easy to accomodate, and it is easy to grow on if done right, including accomodating both adult and the gaming aspect if you wanted. That is just a matter of how things are organized (both legally and technically.) 

If everything is organized, legalized and produced out of California, it will be a dull, watered down experience IMO. :-)

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So, on one hand you are bitching about seeing a master and slave.. and now you want no restrictions?  Make up your mind.

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Do you know what the most popular current game series is? GTA... yep, no sex or violence in those games, right? .

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Of course many people like disgusting violence and porn and a lot of money can be made with it - still MOST people stay away from it. Even if GTA should be popular amongst the majority of gamers, this should not be confused with the majority of people.

 

I think a rich virtual world without obvious deterrends might have the potential to appeal to most internet users, like Wikipedia or YouTube. Porn and gaming are niches, and porn in a game is a niche in a niche.

 

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

If I were to go by your profile, I would guess you are a either a bot or an alt. 2010 birthdate and a blank profile... What DO you do in SL? No one could even take a remote guess.

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I have two SL accounts, the other one is used a bit more often. I once had a profile but that became obsolete. Every few months I spend some time in SL, but nothing got me hooked enough to become an avid user. My old computer had a hard time rendering SL even at lowest settings which also didn't help. Now I have a new computer and give SL another try, during which I stumbled upon this thread.

 

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

You have to search for the adult content on the MP... I have yet to see anything about enslaving or abusing women on the front page.. I wonder if the MP is like google, and it shows you things that are relevant based on previous searches...

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I was on Marketplace a few weeks ago, looked for some non-porn stuff, and yet it came up with close ups of genitals and enslaving equipment after putting in some search term, perhaps accidently matching the name of a porn content vendor or whatever.

 

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

and the adult section of the forums is at the bottom..

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Most new users will scroll the whole page for all categories anyway.

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Would you tell my wife to remove her silver collar in RL?

I would tell her that she is free to sacrifice her dignity to some fragile male ego that can only survive by supressing a woman, but that it's a bad idea nevertheless.

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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 They are acting like children.

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The child avatars that I encountered acted way more silly and nerving than real children, who often have the benefit of an unspoiled sanity and reason compared to many grown ups. Like: Ask children if they think it is a good idea to inhale poisonous smoke, to torture animals for cheap meat or to enslave their mother or sister.

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

 

Where is it illegal to pretend to be a master and have a slave?

 Was there not some civil war in the US to put an end to slavery?

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Would you tell my wife to remove her silver collar in RL?

I would tell her that she is free to sacrifice her dignity to some fragile male ego that can only survive by supressing a woman, but that it's a bad idea nevertheless.

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You need to get out more.. And also stop pushing your limits and restrictions on others.

[Thomas Galbreus]

I pushed? You asked and got an answer.

[Perrie Juran]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Would you tell my wife to remove her silver collar in RL?

I would tell her that she is free to sacrifice her dignity to some fragile male ego that can only survive by supressing a woman, but that it's a bad idea nevertheless.

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You need to get out more.. And also stop pushing your limits and restrictions on others.

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Actually I see it quite the opposite.

He is telling them to free themselves from the limits and restrictions you are wanting to impose on them.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Would you tell my wife to remove her silver collar in RL?

I would tell her that she is free to sacrifice her dignity to some fragile male ego that can only survive by supressing a woman, but that it's a bad idea nevertheless.

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You need to get out more.. And also stop pushing your limits and restrictions on others.

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Actually I see it quite the opposite.

He is telling them to free themselves from the limits and restrictions you are wanting to impose on them.

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So, anyone that participates in BD/sm has a fragile ego that can only survive by suppressing others? I did not know that. I shall have to bring that up at the next munch I attend.

[Gavin Hird]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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So, anyone that participates in BD/sm has a fragile ego that can only survive by suppressing others? I did not know that. I shall have to bring that up at the next munch I attend.

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I guess what you see is the normal response to such activites – soak it up! ;-)

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

I have given many reasons in the beginning of this thread why SL (current and new) needs to be broken up in parts to accomodate different legal, cultural and, of course also, the adult content aspects. It is in my view exceedingly difficult to combine these in one experience unless you are to offer a watered down "California dreaming" product that really don't appeal to anyone. 

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So... teengrid again? That didn't really work last time.

Teengrid languished - as less profitable and full of 'community issues' while not having access to adult grid's creatives (and vice versa).

I went to the old teen sims the day of the merger - and it was full of some very strange bugs due to parcels that had had been long ago set up with griefer scripts and then just left there... it was an amazing mess.

Oddly it was at the time also the most lag-free experience I'd ever had in SL, because it was a huge vacant lot avatar wise...

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

You have to search for the adult content on the MP... I have yet to see anything about enslaving or abusing women on the front page.. I wonder if the MP is like google, and it shows you things that are relevant based on previous searches...

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 Yes it is. Inworld search is likewise and this is why it is so broken for some people, and works just fine for others. Its also why some people go there and see nothing but trashy low quality tramp-boots. And others go there and find good product. You more or less get what you are looking for on the internet... But it might not be what you wanted to think you were looking for.

 

To the general 'Adult has got to go' theme, NOT in response to Drake who I think is on the 'pro-adult content' side (but I've yet to read everything).

 

In advertising, especially for TV, but also elsewhere... the demographic you want is 18-49. Older than that and appealing to them actually harms most brands... younger than that and you can sell to them if you make it appealing / acceptable to their parents - which can detract from its appeal to the actual demographic...

There really isn't a major market for 'family friendly'...

Why do Disney / Pixar have so few competitors... because the market is more or less saturated with one entry...

- How many movies can you stand to sit through with your kids between June and August? Disney owns that.

They do it by concealing enough adult references into the material that the parents can handle sitting through the latest princess-flick.

- Then they sell the toys... as items that the parents buy out of nostalgia and toss at their kids.

Filling that niche requires something very different from appealing to an older group.

"Family Friendly" used to be a toxic label... and now outside of Disney everyone shoots for PG-13: "family with a snarky edge."

Which is not to say you have to go full on Hustler or Disney...

But you need to recognize that adult spaces will have adult communication and you better not get in the way of that... or you can poison your brand.

A virtual world is more of a hangout space than a play space.

An MMO is like the 'gym' for the armchair bound - play space. It entertains, and can go for PG-13 to light R. It can also cross the age-gap a bit.

But the virtual world is more like a pub, bar, cafe, street corner - where people gather to socialize, hang out, and talk gossip. The more you constrain that, the less social it becomes... There's a reason the people who "hang out" at a Starbucks are not as interactive with each other as the people by the stoop down on the corner, or in the cafe in the art-district, or at the pub...

(I have a point here but I feel like I'm rambling so I'll move along for now, hopefully I'll be able to gather this thought up better on my next attempt.)

 

[Gavin Hird]

You're entering mobile client space with SLv2. The audience is 7+ once the app is in the app stores. 

[Innula Zenovka]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

You're entering mobile client space with SLv2. The audience is 7+ once the app is in the app stores. 

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Unless the ToS are changed rather drastically for SLv2, that will not be the case for the audience for any SLv2 app, assuming one is ever made.  

Have LL actually announced their intention to make an app for the new platform?

[Gavin Hird]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Have LL actually announced their intention to make an app for the new platform?

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They have said tens of millions to hundreds of millons users and new platforms. There is no other space to move into but mobile if that is your target. 

[Innula Zenovka]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Have LL actually announced their intention to make an app for the new platform?

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They have said tens of millions to hundreds of millons users and new platforms. There is no other space to move into but mobile if that is your target. 

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So you are inferring this?  They haven't actually said anything about making an apple app for the new platform?   

I mean, speculation apart,  we know Ebbe Linden has said, in response to a  question about Adult Content in the new environment,  that he expects that anything that's permitted in SL at the moment will be there in SLv2.    

What little has actually been announced should, to my mind, be given rather more weight than should be given to mere conjecture about what might happen if something else happens.   

[Gavin Hird]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Have LL actually announced their intention to make an app for the new platform?

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They have said tens of millions to hundreds of millons users and new platforms. There is no other space to move into but mobile if that is your target. 

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So you are inferring this?  They haven't actually said anything about making an apple app for the new platform?   

I mean, speculation apart,  we know Ebbe Linden has said, in response to a  question about Adult Content in the new environment,  that he expects that anything that's permitted in SL at the moment will be there in SLv2.    

What little has actually been announced should, to my mind, be given rather more weight than should be given to mere conjecture about what might happen if something else happens.   

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I believe he later corrected that to what is permitted under California law. Obviously what is permissible is largely dependant on the age for participation. 

Apple is not the only company running app stores? ;-)

... but as the market leader in tablets, currently the only supplier in the space with a 64-bit processor and with the significant graphics performance increase they have acheived on the A7 processor in comgination with Metal and Swift (10x draw calls over OpenGL), it is unlikley there will not be an offering in the Apple app store when they enter the mobile space. 

[Perrie Juran]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Would you tell my wife to remove her silver collar in RL?

I would tell her that she is free to sacrifice her dignity to some fragile male ego that can only survive by supressing a woman, but that it's a bad idea nevertheless.

---

You need to get out more.. And also stop pushing your limits and restrictions on others.

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Actually I see it quite the opposite.

He is telling them to free themselves from the limits and restrictions you are wanting to impose on them.

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So, anyone that participates in BD/sm has a fragile ego that can only survive by suppressing others? I did not know that. I shall have to bring that up at the next munch I attend.

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I didn't say that at all.

But just because you are able to find willing  victims  participants who will submit to your will still does not make it right.

 

[Perrie Juran]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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So, anyone that participates in BD/sm has a fragile ego that can only survive by suppressing others? I did not know that. I shall have to bring that up at the next munch I attend.

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I guess what you see is the normal response to such activites – soak it up! ;-)

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In the post that you quoted, Drake was responding to me, and I never said that.

So what you  are seeing is his normal response. 

And in this case it was not a reasoned response.

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Monalisa Robbiani wrote:

There need to be two products, two brands, two marketing strategies etc. to make this work.

 

Right now, if you mention SL in a work or business related situation, people either have never heard about it or, if they have, it's like you suggested youporn as a tool or field to look into. It's best not to mention it at all.

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I blogged about my "SL is a game" stance sometime back in a way that is relevant to this perception.

My notion there was that "the outside world is going to see it as something no matter what you do... you cannot change that, so embrace the label."

PART of that is relevant here.

No matter WHAT is done, any virtual world is going to be seen as "for the sexxy time' by the outside world unless it takes active steps to prevent adults from even using it outside the presence of children to police the adults...

(that sounds flipped, on purpose...)

Minecraft is probably the only virtual world that escapes the 'scarlet letter' because it more or less looks like "Legos; the MMO' to "the outside world". (At least that is what I thought it was the first time I saw it mentioned).

Ie: it is either "for kids only" or its a hive of pron, XXX, and worse...

So they might as well just accept that the outside world is not going to give them a pass no matter how much they try to clean things up... and instead change things with more gradual nuanced solutions...

Like how the internet has more or less mainstreamed itself despite its early days when it was seen as mostly about XXX-businesses.

 

Self-censoring is not the solution. You won't change outside opinions by doing that.

 

And the two products / brands thing was tried... I'm not keen that teen grid got merged into SL, but I understand why - the 'clean' brand just wasn't viable... because the world more or less does view a virtual world as some kind of 'sexxy time with Borat and that guy in the office who likes Japanese Anime' place...

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Have LL actually announced their intention to make an app for the new platform?

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They have said tens of millions to hundreds of millons users and new platforms. There is no other space to move into but mobile if that is your target. 

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Unless you move into this thing I've got called the internet. I hear you can talk to just about anybody on that - even weird guys in Turkey who just want to meet 'teh ladies' and say "I kiss you".

You're sounding a tad like Hamlet there with the 'app or bust' meme.

Also... Android apps don't have to be distributed in a closed system. I could post one on the internet somewhere for just about ANYTHING and Google couldn't do anything to stop me.

- So you CAN go the app route... just not via Apple's "criticize our slave-labor camps and get blocked" system.

 

You could also, with skilled HTML5 coders, package a viewer into a web-browser and circumvent Apple's corp-control... And in this case, I am using HTML5 not to meant HTML5, but the "interwebz buzzword" that actually encompasses a huge range of browser based technologies...

 

[Monalisa Robbiani]

"Self-censoring is not the solution. You won't change outside opinions by doing that." Oh really? Apple does that, Google does that, Yahoo does that, Facebook does that ... EVERY mass market online service actually does that, otherwise it will get stuck in a redlight niche from the very beginning.

[Perrie Juran]

 

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Monalisa Robbiani wrote:

"Self-censoring is not the solution. You won't change outside opinions by doing that." Oh really? Apple does that, Google does that, Yahoo does that, Facebook does that ... EVERY mass market online service actually does that, otherwise it will get stuck in a redlight niche from the very beginning.

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yep