Linden Lab is building a NEW virtual world

[Ebbe Linden]

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Niecia Davi wrote:

 From what I read today about the upcoming new sl2 the scripting will change / prims will change and sculpts MAY be imported as mesh. This means dont buy anything that is prim/sculpt-based or scripted with LSL at this time they are trash and there will be NO PLACE in the NEW SL2 for them.  As it stands right now it would be like buying an old television set that does not pick up the new wavelength...useless...well useless in the near future...but means you buy it plan on trashing it.  Merchants might as well start giving prim/sculpt-based objects and LSL scripted objects away for free because Linden labs just rendered them useless.

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No we didn't. They will work in SL for many many years just fine. And then it will be a long time for you and anyone to decide to use next gen over a long period. By your suggestion nobody should ever by a phone. 

[Suspiria Finucane]

I realize there are many questions and missing some is expected. Here are ones I asked earlier.

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

Goal is to empower creators to do any content we can (including skeleton), but again, early...

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Can you say if this refers to in-world empowerment or external program empowerment? In my opinion, the in-world creation aspect of SL is something we've lost. The more in-world creation that is possible, the more attention span you garner.

Imagine how many hours are spent in external programs instead of occupying your virtual world.

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Also;

I was curious if you can say whether the brand Second Life will be on the new product and the old SL would be something like SL classic or SL legacy?

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[Madelaine McMasters]

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

Maybe I'll just leave these 

here

for a moment . . . :-)

 

• Following up on the answer above, do you see the Community Standards as remaining more or less stable?
   
• Will there still be free avatar accounts? (I assume that accounts will remain anomymous/pseudonymous.)
   
• if there are free accounts, will there be limits on the number of accounts (I think there are, theoretically, now, but if so it isn't enforced).
   
• Will there be built-in viewer building tools for things like mesh, comparable to what currently exists for prims, so that more creation can be accomplished in-world?
   
• Will the new VW feature a version of the LEA, so that support will continue for the arts on the new grid (this is an important question for me).
   
• The move to make the new world work for Oculus Rift notwithstanding, will the viewer UI continue to be relatively friendly and usable for those using more old-fashioned tech? (I.e., a mouse and keyboard)
   
• I am delighted and impressed by your answers here -- do you see other forms of consultation with residents in the future? And not just with the high-end land barons or content creators?

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If I'd known all you're asking about SL before joining more than six years ago, I'd probably never have hopped aboard. I learned when I was little that sneaking into the attic to unwrap and examine my Christmas presents was the worst form of expectation management. I want to be a noob again!

What I want to hear from Ebbe is that he's having a blast in his new job, and the team is excited. As he well knows, if they don't have the vision and drive to wow us, someone else will. So I'm not worried about what I'll do with my future spare time. Someone will get my attention.

But, it would be cool if that's Ebbe and the Lindens.

They spoiled me, but that's not my problem.

Just ask Mom.

;-).

[Suspiria Finucane]

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

 

I strongly suggest that you consult with the Firestorm team about their extra features and include as many of them as you can.

 

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It's interesting how people are trying to transition power from old SL to the new. No one has announced the new platform specifics so how does anyone know there will be a current viewer type at all? Firestorm may be quasi-popular in the old platform but that doesn't necessitate popularity in the new platform.

 

For all we know the features you speak of are the cause of some of the problems we have in SL today. I would hope LL strives for a standard viewing experience for everyone instead of incompatibility.

 

Why would a creator waste time trying to fix something instead of creating something new for a new world. I thought the idea of a new platform was to get rid of all the hacks, not recreate the same pattern of hacks.

 

 

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Mony Lindman wrote:

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Magnus Brody wrote:

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Mony Lindman wrote:

ok .. here i go :

 

- Linden Lab gimme a kiss

- "TBD but not as is"

 

.. would that sell ?

 

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Might need some work.

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OK .. the poem continues in SL 2 :

 

We can kiss here in the hall

aaa .. but there is no poseball ..

 

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Roses are red

Neeples are pink

Show me yours

and I'll buy you a drink

[Chris24fm Thorkveld]

HUNDREDS of applications development companies and organizations hit development targets every year - you just don't HEAR about it. The big failures are fun to talk about  - the successes and on-time completions - not so much.

Ebbe's pedigree encourages me in this area.

 

[Dillon Levenque]

I'm just a consumer. I also have real stuff I have to do so I must confess I've only read about half the posts in this thread. As long as it is, it's not even a patch on the one running across the street which is now well into four digits. I haven't read any of that one. I just don't have that kind of time.

Here is my consumer's take (and I have seen a few others in the sampling I've done here). Short term (as in over the next six months to a year) this has no effect whatever on my purchasing plans. In case anyone hasn't been reading any blogs anywhere there's something akin to the 1849 California Gold Rush going on with mesh avatars right now. It seems as if someone is introducing a new mesh avatar almost daily. After being content with the shape (and skin, most of the time) I've worn for going on four years, it's quite likely I'll wind up with a mesh avatar in the near future. I may wait for the dust to settle a bit but I'm pretty sure it will happen.

That means I'll need new clothes. New shoes. Probably new  hands and feet. New lots of things. I'll be spending money.I won't be hesitant to spend money decorating my place either, although to be quite honest I'm not much of a decorator. If I do decide I want something I'll buy it. Whether I can keep it and port it to the new SL doesn't matter a bit. I buy the things I buy in SL because I enjoy what they do. I consider what I spend here entertainment money.

The idea that SL might actually cease to exist is troubling, but if it happens it happens. I'll hate it, but I won't give a second thought to my inventory (although I will request a rebate—with no real hope—on whatever portions of my and my land group alts' yearly Premium fee can't be utilized.

I don't think my attitude is too far out of line with that of most consumers. I suspect the tens of  thousands of us can roll with whatever punches LL throws. That leaves, from what I've read here and other places, two groups with serious issues.

One group is the Content Creators. I capitalized to signify, in general,  people who have stores, who create things that are purchased by many, who devise new ways to use the world. We are all of us content creators in some sense, but I meant the ones who make things other people want to buy. I would think that group of people needs to be addressed by LL, since if their creations are not going to be portable to the new platform they stand to lose the benefits of  hours and hours—hell,  days and days—of work creating objects. If any one group deserves a bit of extra attention, it's this group.  The Lab should give them all the help they can to let them move their creations. I'm sure that won't be possible in all or perhaps even most cases, but there has to be a concerted effort to allow current SL Creators to port to the new SL.

The other group is the Real Estate agents, into which I lump everyone who has paid/is paying LL for land with the intent of renting/leasing/selling same to other people. I've seen them here commenting; I've seen them commenting elsewhere. Their* constant comment (I would pause for a sip of tea were I a tea drinker) is that LL should treat them special because of all the money they pay to LL. Somehow it never gets mentioned that all that money comes from consumers who rent/lease/buy the properties they hold. Did they once gamble on making money and pay for a region/sim/whatever? Sure. Does that entitle them to something? Hell no. They are land speculators. Anything can happen. That's why they call it speculation.

*I do not intend to damn all who own and speculate on SL land, and in fact the 'Real Estate Agent' complaints have been limited to a handful of people. It appears that most are aware of their situation and are prepared to deal with it in their own way, without expecting Linden Lab to somehow help them out.

 

edited to flesh out  a paragraph about creators

[JPatrick Maltese]

What I'm getting from this thread is another Major Upheval in Second Life! My oldfest Avi celebrates it's 9th year rez day next month (7/27/2005) a Premium Account for all nine years. It hasn't been easy, I have photos of inventory that has been lost (?) and I just suffered a month of being a Ghost for undisclosed reasons from Support! I have 2 other Avi Prem accounts & all three are not Mesh designs. I have been trying to master mesh avi design but with what I'm reading maybe I should wait for this New Grid/Viewer before designing yet another Prem Avi Account!

[Chris24fm Thorkveld]

Ebbe,

 

I have somewhere on 3 1/2 inch floppy a backup of an AWESOME Diablo II character....so my question to you -  since SL has combat-style games, and since Diablo II has combat, and since you used to work for Microsoft who used to own Blizzard who used to make Diablo II... I simply cannot understand why you cannot guarantee that my Diablo II character will work in your new world.

 

<GRIN>

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Parrish Ashbourne wrote:

coke classic was one of the biggest marketing success stories ever, may be SL will out do SL2 with the right marketing, I like SL legacy better sounds more Tron like, or how about the SL Matrix

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I'm not sure Coke Classic is the best analogy. It was, after all, the emergency response to the debacle that was "New Coke".

;-).

[Ebbe Linden]

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DesperadoReprise wrote:

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Of course they don't have any plans to disallow ageplay of the sort you describe.   They disallowed it seven or eight years ago, and people don't normally talk about making plans to do something they've already done.    

 

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But Ebbe has comitted here in these forums very recently that Sanitised Life will allow user freedoms as long as they are legal.

And depiction of sexual age-play is not illegal in California, with whose laws LL has to comply.

Is he lying, inconsistent, or incompetent?

"it's finally turned the tables"

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I said: 

We have no plans to disallow anything that's going on in SL and is legal. We're proud of the freedom we offer. 

rather than "...going on in SL..." I could have said "...adheres to SL policy..."

So now you can have fun with that for a while...

[Ebbe Linden]

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kiramanell wrote:

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Vivienne Schell wrote:

"i've seen entire sims from reputable builders disappear, precisely because LL introduced new things´"

The difference HERE is that almost any single asset format will change. The history of mesh or whatsoever has only proven that partial format changes alone didn´t have ANY positive impact on the overall growth of SL.

Now they gamble and hope to get away with a radical cut. I think they basically miss the fact that the vast majority of dedicated Second Life customers (not the loud minority on SLUniverse and elsewhere) is not really interested in any substantial changes of technology, but in their inventory and what they can do with it, how they can do something with it and - most important - what for? And since friday for how long?

Old dilemma: Techies vs. Philosophers/Business People. At LL the techies obviously dominate all other groups.

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My point exactly.

Not everyone can or wants to embark on a full 'do over.' Reading those blogs, it looks to me that we can pretty much kiss backwards compatibility goodbye (if, for nothing else, by logical inference: after all, the reason to start anew was to get rid of the old, inhibitive tech).

My entire sim is full of homes I bought, and then took many years sometmes to mod and decorate, and make my own, as it were. So, while not a 100% content-creator, I'm not sure I want to start all over again. And, like you say, what for? Just so some CEO with a wet dream can yank it out from under me again one day? As Bush once said: "Fool me once, shame on you! Fool me twice.... eh, also shame on you!" (or words to that effect).

Also, pray-tell, LL, what spectacular (not specular) new tech is being used?! In reality, I can't even get the Lindens to up the 512MB texture memory limit on the current incarnation of SL, out of fear ppl won't be able to run it. So, what makes them suddenly think the world is ready for Matrix 2.0 now?!

 

 

 

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So good news then that we will continue to improve SL and that we have no plans to shut it down. You can choose when you see it in the future. 

[Parrish Ashbourne]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

---

Parrish Ashbourne wrote:

coke classic was one of the biggest marketing success stories ever, may be SL will out do SL2 with the right marketing, I like SL legacy better sounds more Tron like, or how about the SL Matrix

---

I'm not sure Coke Classic is the best analogy. It was, after all, the emergency response to the debacle that was "New Coke".

;-).

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I think the debacle here is the all the people spreading panic over some thing that should be good news, I like the idea of NewSL and Classic SL or what ever you want call it,  just thinking it would be nice if the was some as simple as a name change to turn things around.

 

[Pamela Galli]

An in depth article on why the migration path is so critical, by SL's most insightful analyst, Gwyneth Llewelyn:  http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2014/06/27/next-life/  (She also came up with a pretty good name: NeXT Life.)

[Ebbe Linden]

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Dmitri Polonsky wrote:

"I'm here. Reading everything. But there are a lof questions I can't (or won't) answer at this time. And it's also good to see you all talking amongst yourselves and I've already seen that dialog trend in a positive direction. "

 

And herein lies a huge problem most custoemrs of SL have had for years, things that will not be discussed. It is my understanding that pruchased content will not be migrated over. That means a huge loss on investment for old timers such as me who have 9 years in SL. A tax for content will only succeed in squelching new creators form starting. I will be honest and say this sounds like yet more panderring to high dfollar customers with a total lack fo regard for the little guys,  This brings back reminiscences of a certain ex presidential candidate and his comments about the 47%. Ebbe if you want the view of a long time Sler about all this and where SL has been and mistakes made, feel free to contact me in world sometime. I would welcome a discussion with you about it, but one of Sls major probelsm has always been selectively applying ToS and following up AR's and bug reports selectively by financial status rahter then viewing it as all cusotmers are created equally. That is a mistake I would rather not see you continuing.

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Just keep using SL. In the future you can decide what to do when you have other options. 

[Gavin Hird]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

She also came up with a pretty good name: NeXT Life

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Don't you think NeXT Life is a bit on the morbid side, haha?

+ Steve Jobs is going to haunt it for using NeXT 

[Ebbe Linden]

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Dmitri Polonsky wrote:

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Mony Lindman wrote:

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

You asked: 

1 - What type of assets are more likelly to be transferable to SL2 and what probably not? (meshes, animations, sculpts, scripts, textures, builds made of normal prims, system clothing ?)

We don't have all the answers to this one yet, but several areas will have radical improvements and thus not possible to be fully backwards compatible. 

Mesh is ok (but with better lighting and other tech you may want to make tweaks)

Animations will change (major mprovements as we don't currently do it the way it should be done)

Sculpts (TBD, but not as is, but maybe converted to Mesh?)

Scripts (major improvement, so will change)

Textures ok

Prims (TBD, but probably not as is)

Avatars will be radically improved as well so a lot TBD 

Again, we will have years to sort this all out together...

2 - Is SL2 to be considerd "another grid" in which case the TOS of most full permission creators would prohibit the transfer to that grid? If that is the case, could LL speak a word of power and decide that for full permission items that CAN be transfered, the new SL should be considered as the "same grid" ?

ToS will not be an issue. 

3 - Will at least the L$ currency remain the same and will available balances be usable in both worlds?

Yes

4 - Will the 2 worlds be connected in any way and will an avatar be able to move from one to another with the same name and profile and groups and friends? And .. some of its inventory..

Identity and friends will be preserved. Inventory depends on above decisions under #1 but we clearly want as much of existing work to be possible to leverage as long as it will not impact how good the new platform can be. 

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Thanks for the answers, Im sure everyone needed them. If possible maybe a few details are still needed..

you say :  Sculpts (TBD, but not as is, but maybe converted to Mesh?)

Converting to mesh would not be a problem indeed but the advantage of sculpts is that they are only 1 prim each . Meshes have usually more. And in the present SL if i put scripts in a mesh it doubles the Li. Will this be the case also in SL2 ?

And as i asked about the TOS i didnt mean the SL TOS but the TOS of the full permission creators who all dont allow the use of their items in other grids. So the question remains: is SL2 "another grid" ? And i also asked at point 4: will an avatar be able to move from one to another (grid)? Your answer to the TOS question sugests that its the same grid but .. how would that work? In the same viewer ? I would need a little more clarity here plase..

Genrally it dosnt look very good for someone like me who spent over 2 million lindens on full perm animations and if i understand well they can not be moved to SL2, nor can they be somehow converted .. This will of course affect all animators and also all builder who make animated items.. Therfore I would be very interested to hear your oppinion about the other possible "option" I just posted (bottom of page 51)

Thanks

 

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I really saw no answers in his post except a lot of we don't know or cannot discuss. Meaning most likely assets will NOT transfer. I've seen 9 years of this kind of answers in SL.

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So you don't have enough information to make the decision to use a future product. That makes sense. So keep using the one you want to use until you get more information and then make a desicion on what to do. 

[Ebbe Linden]

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kiramanell wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

This isn't just a reply to your post, kiramanell. It's meant for all who are seeing doom and gloom because of the SL2 announcement.

If LL doesn't create a much better SL-like world, someone else will. If someone else did it, we'd all be saying how much better it is 'over there', and quite a largeish chunk of the population would go over, perhaps also maintaining a presence in SL as well for a while. Those that went over wouldn't be thinking how bad it is that we can't take the inventories along, because nobody would expect SL inventories to go over.

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Yeah, Except that someone else's Virtual World wouldn't go at the direct expense/cannibalization (pulling away of resources and ppl) of SL.

 

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So it's LL that is creating the better world. What's wrong with that? Nobody can find fault with that. AND some of the SL inventory

will

go over. What a plus! AND SL will continue to run as well. So we get it all - a better world, some inventory going over, and continuance of SL.

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As I said in chat, the other day: "Half a home is no home at all." It's cute if, say, all the mesh parts can be ported, but if the other prim-half stays behind (very realistic to still have prims in a somewhat older home), then you have totally broken build, and essentially just a pile of garbage.

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So you assume we could have the same amount of resources regardless of how hard it is to compete or that all projects are equal in potential value? Working on some products have much higher cost and lower return on investment than others. 

[Gavin Hird]

It would be interesting if Ebbe could give us a target profile of a user of "Newland", then we might be able to understand exactly what we are aiming at here? 

... in my head targeting new platforms (which means tablets and phones in that order) skews the current profile quite a lot

[Amethyst Jetaime]

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Suspiria Finucane wrote:

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

 

I strongly suggest that you consult with the Firestorm team about their extra features and include as many of them as you can.

 

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It's interesting how people are trying to transition power from old SL to the new. No one has announced the new platform specifics so how does anyone know there will be a current viewer type at all? Firestorm may be quasi-popular in the old platform but that doesn't necessitate popularity in the new platform.

 

For all we know the features you speak of are the cause of some of the problems we have in SL today. I would hope LL strives for a standard viewing experience for everyone instead of incompatibility.

 

Why would a creator waste time trying to fix something instead of creating something new for a new world. I thought the idea of a new platform was to get rid of all the hacks, not recreate the same pattern of hacks.

 

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The behind the scene tech will probably be quite different in the new SL2, that doesn't mean that the features the FIrestorm offers can't be features that SL2 offers, if they are applicable to the new platform, which no matter what SL2 is, many of them will be.  My suggestion on consulting with the FIrestorm developers was more on the lines of getting a comprehensive list of their extra features and what exactly they do, not writing the actual code which will probably be very different.

Why must there be a one size fits all viewer? If that were so important why have preferences in the SL viewer at all?

What is wrong with having a feature set for advanced users and content creators.?  Why not make things easier for us if a lot of new content has to be developed and a lot of legacy content has to be fixed?  Many of the extra features that firestorm offers allows creators to work faster with better quality results.

It is to your advantage too.  The faster I can create or update a creation of mine, the faster it will be available. SL2 must have as much content as possible as soon as possible if it is going to succeed with the masses.  It could all be in the same viewer, if there will be a viewer as opposed to a web based interface,  but the advanced feature sets would have to be "turned on" so as not to confuse people who won't need them or don't want them because they don't create content.

BTW, even though Fiirestorm has a lot of extra features the world looks the same to those of us that use it as it does to you.  LL changed the TPV terms to disallow any extra feature that makes that view different a while ago.   And if the extra features in it are causing problems, since it is all client side its only causing problems for the users, not you.

Who said the content that ports over that has to be updated with new scripts will be hacks?  A door is a door and has to operate pretty much the same way in SL1 and 2.  The difference is the LSL script in it now will have to be replaced with one that works in the new world.  Do you throw out updates you get on products you purchased already because they are all "hacks"?  If you migrate to SL2 are you going to refuse any updates of products you already own and like and start from scratch?  Maybe, but most people won't .

[Gavin Hird]

There is little point in discussing the features of the viewer before we even know the most fundamental feature set of Newland.

– No, a door does not have to open the way it does in SL1 and not even by script. ... as an example.

 

Thruth is that Firestorm, as every version 2 derived viewer, is a complete mess from a usability standpoint. Period. ;-)

[kiramanell]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

An in depth article on why the migration path is so critical, by SL's most insightful analyst, Gwyneth Llewelyn:  

http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2014/06/27/next-life/

 (She also came up with a pretty good name: NeXT Life.)

---

Looks like Gwyneth Llewelyn is a smart cookie.

"So what I see as a major problem is that SL starts losing residents and landmass very fast, well before 'NeXT Life' is due, and LL's revenue stream collapses."

Maybe not now yet, but I predict a snowball effect the closer we get to SL2: people will progressively start to make less large purchases in SL, and, conversely, content creators will progressive embark less on new, major projects for SL.

"They expect more revenues from 'NeXT Life' to compensate, but… will the users joining 'NeXT Life' (almost all coming from SL) compensate what LL will lose with a shrinking SL?"

I think many people will be like me, and 'wait it out' a bit first. After all, initially SL 2.0 will essentially be a ghost town, with nothing in it. And the folks running around in it will all be utter noobs when it comes to having to learn everything all over again. Sure, some mesh may be able to get ported; but, realistically, I think it will at least take 1 year (and that is being optimistic) before we'll see any content, like homes/furniture, that will be on par with what SL has to offer. Also, all complex script tools (rezzers, comprehensive vendors, fancy TV's, etc), LL will have obsoleted them all; so all of that will have to be recreated from scratch before you can count again on even a half-way 'business as usual' shopping experience.

So, what will people do in the interim? Stay in SL, most like, and maybe get a small plot in SL2, just to observe what's going on. So, there will be a kind of limbo, with down-spiraled sales in SL, and not much going on in SL2 yet. I wish LL good luck bridging that gap.

[Gavin Hird]

Not sure if that analysis brought much to the table. Mostly an incoherent series of ramblings and alternate praisings of HIFI and Facebook. 

SecondLife's strongest asset is the very big content base devloped by its users.  It will take the competitors years to get to the same level.

But that also is true for Newland (SLv2) unless you can transfer almost everything.  That is also the achilles' heel of Newland. 

 

SecondLife would be better preserved by horizontal scaling of the current world, which in reality means hypergridding to multiple instances preserverving full portability of content. This in combination with rapid developement of the backend for scalability, a completely rewamped viewer that also could support mobile devices, a new avatar with legacy uv support and new (custom) rigging, in addition to support for var regions would go a long way to revitalize SecondLife.  

I would also deprecate a few technologies that are performance killers, create a devloper group and get proper contracts in place for developers and distribution of creations, and let the developers in on future plans early on in the process of developing new technologies.)

I would also repackage the cleaned up backend for sale as standalone (with hypergrid support) to anyone including edu and corporate users, and give them the ability to make purchases and have delivery of items from the marketplace to their instance so they could share in the same content base. 

[irihapeti]

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Chris24fm Thorkveld wrote:

Ebbe,

 

I have somewhere on 3 1/2 inch floppy a backup of an AWESOME Diablo II character....so my question to you -  since SL has combat-style games, and since Diablo II has combat, and since you used to work for Microsoft who used to own Blizzard who used to make Diablo II... I simply cannot understand why you cannot guarantee that my Diablo II character will work in your new world.

 

<GRIN>

 

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jejejjeje (:

 

[kiramanell]

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

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So you assume we could have the same amount of resources regardless of how hard it is to compete or that all projects are equal in potential value? Working on some products have much higher cost and lower return on investment than others. 

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I appreciate a reply from the man himself, but I honestly don't know what you mean, here. I was pretty much just saying that being able to import half-a-home is, effectively, the same as not being able to import it at all. And thus, realistically, that I can forget about ever being able to port my many homes to SL2.

Unless you tell me I am wrong, of course (please, tell me I am wrong, LOL).