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Hello friends, I am here just to ask you about the current state of the abuse reports Second Life, for long a resident  is griefing, threatening and harassing people around as a so normal and commom task, clearly and obviously being reported because his attacks are not so "soft" and funny, impossible to tolerate, minutes ago I was griefed by it resident and ofended in extreme (i already filled the AR and holding the image of the attack as evidence), but it is not the 1st time that people say that reports of abuse do not seem to be being read or that nothing more is going on with griefers in Second Life, I would like to hear from you on this topic.

thank you very much. 

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First of all, you should remove the person's name from your post. Naming them in this manner is against community guidelines.

Secondly, have you blocked/muted this person? If not, why not?

Thirdly, it is my experience that ARs do get read. However, residents are not told the results or any action taken, so you are not going to know if or when something has been done. All this assumes that the person is actually griefing and/or violating TOS and this isn't just some resident dispute (LL does not get involved with personal disagreements). 

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First, naming another resident and making accusations against them is against the Community Guidelines for the forums. You could find yourself on the wrong end of a corrective action by doing so.  

I am sure all abuse reports are read.  That does not mean action is taken on them.  Indeed it sometimes seems a mystery that some ARs are acted on quickly and others languish.  I personally believe it has to do with the amount of information provided and the way the information is provided.  Be very detailed in time, place and events that transpire.  Keep emotion and hyperbole to yourself and just stick to facts.  By the way, that picture you are "holding" as evidence, that should have been included with your AR.  

Doing all the above, you still won't be told of the outcome.  

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littleharley wrote:

Hello friends, I am here just to ask you about the current state of the abuse reports Second Life, for long a resident  is griefing, threatening and harassing people around as a so normal and commom task, clearly and obviously being reported because his attacks are not so "soft" and funny, impossible to tolerate, minutes ago I was griefed by it resident and ofended in extreme (i already filled the AR and holding the image of the attack as evidence), but it is not the 1st time that people say that reports of abuse do not seem to be being read or that nothing more is going on with griefers in Second Life, I would like to hear from you on this topic.

thank you very much. 

Hello, I've been in SL for 6.5 years.  I know how to file an abuse report.  I started reporting a situation last fall, and it took LL five months to act on it! 

I filed report after report.  I took screen shots, I stuck to the facts.  I posted a link to the stated violation in the community guidelines.  I posted exactly what the violation was.  (The violation was clearly visible to anyone who would have remotely looked into the report I filed.  The violation was one that is actually listed as an offence)   I also filed reports every week.  I contacted live chat support, I filed more abuse reports.  (Live chat support can do nothing, but I tried them anyway)  Months, and months of this. 

ONLY after I had complained here in the forum several times that nothing was being done, in threads that our new CEO had replied to, (I was still filing ARs!) did the situation finally get corrected.

So, no, I don't think abuse reports get read or acted upon in a timely manner.  It's possible that under our new CEO that things have improved, as the situation in my case only was corrected after the new CEO came on board.   But, in all the years I've been in SL, the total lack of response to the multiple abuse reports I filed, for months, is the situation that just about had me quiting SL. 

 

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Thank you for sharing this Sylvia :)

"Some people think that relationships in SL are real...and some people pretend that they aren't."

 

I really love it!

 

sorry to the OP for this.. i couldnt not to stop by and thank Sylvia! 

and yes! ALL abuse reports are TC of, but as it says there clearly;

and as they advice you above, non full filled reports will not be investigated.

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I agree with you, Celestaill, and I disagree with any who say that all ARs are acted on, even if it takes a long time. I can neither agree nor disagree that all ARs are read though. None of us know that, so nobody should be posting that they are all read.

I've had ARs dealt with ok, and I've had the odd one that needed some extra action from me. One time had a somewhat similar experience to you in that no matter how many ARs I filed, and no matter how often I filed then, even getting to hourly, nothing was done UNTIL I contacted the person who was then the boss of the AR team. That got it sorted out in minutes.

I have no respect at all for those who deal with ARs, and not just because of that particular occasion. I believe that they intentionally do not do what they are paid by LL to do. It's one of the very bad things about LL - but only one of them.

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The most recent AR I submitted was about a fortnight ago, and it was acted upon within 24 hours.

From my own experience, Linden Lab will act fast if it is a matter that could cause a grid-wide problem. If something is reported to them that can be handled by muting/blocking someone, then it can take longer.

Like Phil, though, I cannot be sure all ARs are even read, let alone acted upon.

Generally speaking, verbal threats can be easily dealt with surely - block/mute, teleport away or ban from own land?  Nothing real-life threatening is happening is it? If so, real life police should be consulted. 

 

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Its actually not directly against the forum rules to name and shame.

Its against the forum rules to engage in harrassment here - which is decidedly different.

But a LOT of people who do one, are incapable of not doing the other, because they've only learned to debate or make a point by using hyperbole and ad hominems. Quite some number don't even understand the difference, from a speaker point of view; between a point based 'argument' or 'statement' and a personal attack - and can't distinguish it when its in their own words, but only when its directed at them.

So this incorrect rule gets stated a lot here.

 

That said... yes they read the ARs and they act on them - but there can be notable delay, and you don't get told the results.

Until someone can PROVE that they did not read or decide on a given AR, its illogical to accuse them of not doing their jobs. They may just decide a given AR does not rise to the level of taking punitive action.

 

 

Personally I think they should not only tell us the results, but post them on a public page somewhere, with names. Some MMOs have started doing that. But I'm not expecting LLs to agree with me on this point as frankly... griefing in SL is a very minor problem compared to most online formats. It might not seem that way when one is the target... but for the general size of the population, the number of these people is pretty small and their impact usually trivial.

 

My suggestion to the OP:

In every person's profile is a spot to lave a note that only you can see. Block people very freely anytime something occurs - without contacting them and without engaging. But first leave a note in that note spot saying why. Do that so that you can go through your block list every few months and unblock anyone who's note you left doesn't seem to apply anymore.

For example I've blocked people in past because something of their's was glitching and spamming me - so I didn't want them blocked forever... Other people I have blocked because they did things I found ethically beyond reproach, so I need to remind myself that its dangerous to re-engage with that person.

 

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

That said...
yes they read the ARs and they act on them
- but there can be notable delay, and you don't get told the results. 

The very best you can say is that some ARs are read and acted upon. Like the rest of us, you don't whether or not all ARs are read. They may be, but we don't know that they are.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


Pussycat Catnap wrote:

That said...
yes they read the ARs and they act on them
- but there can be notable delay, and you don't get told the results. 

The very best you can say is that
some
ARs are read and acted upon. Like the rest of us, you don't whether or not all ARs are read. They may be, but we don't know that they are.

Similar to people who say that Lindens never read the Forum.  What is rare is them responding, the odds being equivelant to maybe winning the lottery. 

If for nothing else, if I were to judge by this Forum, I bet some of the AR's get read just for comedic relief.  The number of "Mommy, he's looking at me again" AR's they must get has to be nuts.

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Marigold Devin wrote:
.

If something is reported to them that can be handled by muting/blocking someone, then it can take longer.

Like Phil, though, I cannot be sure all ARs are even read, let alone acted upon.


The situation that I mentioned was one where the person was revealing an alt of mine, by listing it in their Picks on their profile! They made a profile "Pick" that listed my main account...and then said, "and this is her alt" account.  Then on that same profile Pick, they made-up bogus stuff regarding the reason they were banned from my sim.

I may tell people who my alts are, but it's not permitted for other people to list my alts on their profile!

(The person also listed a woman who ran a club in my sim on their Pick, and bad mouthed her (in a defamation attempt),  as initially the person had been banned from her club which was located in my sim)   For that infraction, I advised the other woman to also file her own AR. 

I had already muted the person the day I banned them.   I made zero contact with them the whole time I was filing the AR's.  I took screen shots.  I clearly stated the violation.  But, it took months for the situation to change.  I literally was checking the profile pick daily, to see if it ever was corrected, as the Live Chat support said that sometimes a person will start up again after being cited for the violation.  But, no....the entire time that profile pick listing my main account and alt was there for all to see.  (Five months!)

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:


Marigold Devin wrote:
.

If something is reported to them that can be handled by muting/blocking someone, then it can take longer.

Like Phil, though, I cannot be sure all ARs are even read, let alone acted upon.


The situation that I mentioned was one where the person was revealing an alt of mine, by listing it in their Picks on their profile! They made a profile "Pick" that listed my main account...and then said, "and this is her alt" account.  Then on that same profile Pick, they made-up bogus stuff regarding the reason they were banned from my sim.

I may tell people who my alts are, but it's not permitted for other people to list my alts on their profile!

(The person also listed a woman who ran a club in my sim on their Pick, and bad mouthed her (in a defamation attempt),  as initially the person had been banned from her club which was located in my sim)   For that infraction, I advised the other woman to also file her own AR. 

I had already muted the person the day I banned them.   I made
zero contact
with them the whole time I was filing the AR's.  I took screen shots.  I clearly stated the violation.  But, it took months for the situation to change.  I literally was checking the profile pick daily, to see if it ever was corrected, as the Live Chat support said that sometimes a person will start up again after being cited for the violation.  But, no....the entire time that profile pick listing my main account and alt was there for all to see.  (Five months!)

I just hope (and think) that relatively few people will have bothered to read the picks on that person's profile.  And the person disclosing such information has made themselves look really, really bad, not you.

I know my words do little to comfort or reassure you about something that must have felt like a massive stone in your shoe.  There are some nasty barstards in the world with so little to do with their time but p1ss off others.

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Personally I think they should not only tell us the results, but post them on a public page somewhere, with names. Some MMOs have started doing that. But I'm not expecting LLs to agree with me on this point as frankly... griefing in SL is a very minor problem compared to most online formats. It might not seem that way when one is the target... but for the general size of the population, the number of these people is pretty small and their impact usually trivial.

 

LL used to have a web page that served as a "police blotter" for actions taken on individuals. It never gave names of avatars, but it gave date, region, infraction and action taken.  

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Kenbro Utu wrote:


Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Personally I think they should not only tell us the results, but post them on a public page somewhere, with names. Some MMOs have started doing that. But I'm not expecting LLs to agree with me on this point as frankly... griefing in SL is a very minor problem compared to most online formats. It might not seem that way when one is the target... but for the general size of the population, the number of these people is pretty small and their impact usually trivial.

 

LL used to have a web page that served as a "police blotter" for actions taken on individuals. It never gave names of avatars, but it gave date, region, infraction and action taken.  

It's still there, we just can't view it.  A couple of months ago somehow it's restrictions got removed.  We had a thread about it.  A large number of the AR's were for "lewd" names.  These people were instructed to contact Support for of all things, A Name Change!

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:


Pussycat Catnap wrote:

That said...
yes they read the ARs and they act on them
- but there can be notable delay, and you don't get told the results. 

The very best you can say is that
some
ARs are read and acted upon. Like the rest of us, you don't whether or not all ARs are read. They may be, but we don't know that they are.

Similar to people who say that Lindens never read the Forum.  What is rare is them responding, the odds being equivelant to maybe winning the lottery. 

If for nothing else, if I were to judge by this Forum, I bet some of the AR's get read just for comedic relief.  The number of "Mommy, he's looking at me again" AR's they must get has to be nuts.

I'm moving on to the theory that they read it all at some point unless we have proof they don't.

Listening to the recent Drax files interviews I'v heard them mention things a number of times that it appeared they were oblivious to. Sometimes with an explaination and sometimes not - its got me thinking they're at least driving with their eyes open.

I'm still in the back seat telling to make a left at the next corner and to stop tailgating that guy...

And maybe if the preview of the new avatars coming next week is any indication; they're even listening to some of that.

(we'll see once those are live).

 

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Kenbro Utu wrote:


Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Personally I think they should not only tell us the results, but post them on a public page somewhere, with names. Some MMOs have started doing that. But I'm not expecting LLs to agree with me on this point as frankly... griefing in SL is a very minor problem compared to most online formats. It might not seem that way when one is the target... but for the general size of the population, the number of these people is pretty small and their impact usually trivial.

 

LL used to have a web page that served as a "police blotter" for actions taken on individuals. It never gave names of avatars, but it gave date, region, infraction and action taken.  

Yeah. See I think if you get a smackdown, it should come with a big ol letter 'A' on your head. An analogy I'll make before those who disagree with me make it - because the 'shame' angle is the obvious reason NOT to do this.

I think that given WHAT is an abuse here, a greater interest in served in making it public, and using the "I don't want my name on that list unless its something I can defend in the community" fear to get folks to behave.

- That has worked in some MMO communities.

I'd like it to be like this:

05/07/2014 1:12pm SL Time: Pussycat Catnap - rezzing lolcats in violation of policy X at sim Y. Penalty: No catnip for 7 days.

- note how that does not say who would have reported me, or who I harmed. List the aggressor, not the victim. And tell everybody what the smackdown was.

 

 

 

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:


And maybe if the preview of the new avatars coming next week is any indication; they're even listening to some of that.

(we'll see once those are live).

 

I'd have to dig it out but it's got to be over a year ago that the invisiprims on some of the current crop was waved in their face.  I know,  priorities.

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:


Kenbro Utu wrote:


Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Personally I think they should not only tell us the results, but post them on a public page somewhere, with names. Some MMOs have started doing that. But I'm not expecting LLs to agree with me on this point as frankly... griefing in SL is a very minor problem compared to most online formats. It might not seem that way when one is the target... but for the general size of the population, the number of these people is pretty small and their impact usually trivial.

 

LL used to have a web page that served as a "police blotter" for actions taken on individuals. It never gave names of avatars, but it gave date, region, infraction and action taken.  

Yeah. See I think if you get a smackdown, it should come with a big ol letter 'A' on your head. An analogy I'll make before those who disagree with me make it - because the 'shame' angle is the obvious reason NOT to do this.

I think that given WHAT is an abuse here, a greater interest in served in making it public, and using the "I don't want my name on that list unless its something I can defend in the community" fear to get folks to behave.

- That has worked in some MMO communities.

I'd like it to be like this:

05/07/2014 1:12pm SL Time: Pussycat Catnap - rezzing lolcats in violation of policy X at sim Y. Penalty: No catnip for 7 days.

- note how that does not say who would have reported me, or who I harmed. List the aggressor, not the victim. And tell everybody what the smackdown was.

 

 

 

scarlet.jpg   

The unfortunate problem with naming is some people would wear their scarlet letters with pride.

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Its actually not directly against the forum rules to name and shame.

Its against the forum rules to engage in harrassment here - which is decidedly different.

These are two entirely different things and, yes, they are both inappropriate content as set forth by the Community Guidelines.  The latter falls under the category of "Harassment" and the former under "Interpersonal Disputes or Negative Personal Commentary".  We could certainly quibble about what Negative Personal Commentary actually means, especially since it isn't really explicitly spelled out in the CG, and whether or not naming and shaming would fall under its meaning... but, judging from the fact that almost every single time someone does this, their post or thread gets deleted, I'm quite comfortable accepting this occurrence as meaning that it is, indeed, as you said, "against the forum rules."

 


Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Personally I think they should not only tell us the results, but post them on a public page somewhere, with names.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable about the public page idea, but I do believe that there should definitely be more transparency regarding the whole AR process, both for the filers and those against whom one has been filed.  If nothing else, I see no reason why they couldn't just tell us what action or non-action has been taken.  An explanation of why they took whichever action they did would be nice, but I wouldn't count on that ever coming to fruition, since LL seems so very intent on deflecting accountability.

At the very least, they could just let it be known that it's been looked into, which would stop people having to come here and post threads such as this and, also, stop others from feeling they need to speculate on whether or not ARs are even read.

...Dres

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Its actually not directly against the forum rules to name and shame.

Its against the forum rules to engage in harrassment here - which is decidedly different.

These are two entirely different things and, yes, they are both inappropriate content as set forth by the Community Guidelines.  The latter falls under the category of "Harassment" and the former under "Interpersonal Disputes or
Negative Personal Commentary
".  We could certainly quibble about what Negative Personal Commentary actually means, especially since it isn't really explicitly spelled out in the CG, and whether or not naming and shaming would fall under its meaning... but, judging from the fact that almost every single time someone does this, their post or thread gets deleted, I'm quite comfortable accepting this occurrence as meaning that it is, indeed, as you said, "against the forum rules."

 

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Personally I think they should not only tell us the results, but post them on a public page somewhere, with names.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable about the public page idea, but I do believe that there should definitely be more transparency regarding the whole AR process, both for the filers and those against whom one has been filed.  If nothing else, I see no reason why they couldn't just tell us what action or non-action has been taken. 
An explanation of why they took whichever action they did would be nice, but I wouldn't count on that ever coming to fruition, since LL seems so very intent on deflecting accountability.

At the very least, they could just let it be known that it's been looked into, which would stop people having to come here and post threads such as this and, also, stop others from feeling they need to speculate on whether or not ARs are even read.

...Dres

^^my bolding^^

I don't think LL can win on this one.

We'd then (as we already do have to a degree) people coming here screaming why didn't LL crucify the accused?

We'd also have the accused coming and crying, "The punishment didn't fit the crime." Look at how much people cry about SIM bans!

And then there are us more regular posters who'd get accused of being Trolls and worse for not being sympathetic when the complaints poured in here.

I just don't see a way that LL can win on this issue even as much as I'd love to see the results myself.

 

 

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Its actually not directly against the forum rules to name and shame.

Its against the forum rules to engage in harrassment here - which is decidedly different.

These are two entirely different things and, yes, they are both inappropriate content as set forth by the Community Guidelines.  The latter falls under the category of "Harassment" and the former under "Interpersonal Disputes or
Negative Personal Commentary
".

Every single time people post something, folks jump in to say don't. I've seen some of those posts not get removed - when they avoided ad hominem and merely stuck to factual issues.

If I go and rez 30 self replicating particle generators on your land with pictures of something obscene... and you come here and post a screenshot of that, with an edit panel open showing me as the owner of the objects.

You have not harassed me.

You have not personally attacked me, in comment or otherwise.

You have not disputed me, personally or otherwise.

You just shown what happened and who did it. And I think this is where we will just end up disagreeing.

I see the 'attack' in the character and tone of what one says and how one acts. Basically if you're "unsporting" to others, creating a hostile atmosphere or going after people's reputations. But I don't see exposing truth, posting facts, as attacking a reputation.

I think you're seeing, unlike me, 'truthtelling' as engaging in a dispute.

This gets muddled so often because in most of the truthtelling posts, the poster also says things that are attacks like:

"X is a thief, X intentionally frauds people, X lied about Y, X is a hateful griefer."

- passing judgement. And that is where the harrass, attack, and dispute come in.

Very rare is the poster who seems able to say "this happened like so by such and such" without adding judgementalism to it.

 

 


Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Personally I think they should not only tell us the results, but post them on a public page somewhere, with names.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable about the public page idea, but I do believe that there should definitely be more transparency regarding the whole AR process,


What I desire here is accountability. Sure some will 'wear that badge with pride' but if folks saw that for example... Pussycat Catnap was cited with possession of Catnip a dozen times... they'd start hiding the catnip around me... :)

Or more pointedly, if someone is getting temp bans every few days for griefing sims - people would rightly put them on block lists ahead of time.

And that 'badge' would get isolating.

Consequence occurs. And once that's around, bad actors would feel more desire to shape up. Some would resort to throwaway alts of course... But you'd have to take such measures more than otherwise is normal to act out.

 

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Perrie Juran wrote:

I don't think LL can win on this one.

We'd then (as we already do have to a degree) people coming here screaming why didn't LL crucify the accused?

We'd also have the accused coming and crying, "The punishment didn't fit the crime." Look at how much people cry about SIM bans!

And then there are us more regular posters who'd get accused of being Trolls and worse for not being sympathetic when the complaints poured in here.

From my perspective, part of the benefit of publicly listing things like:

"X banned for 7 days for rezzing regenerating particles in violation of the maturity policy on a G-rated sim"

- When X comes in and says "I was unfairly banned" people can look and say "actually no, you were banned fairly."

 

In some other online communities; people who were banned have posted such, and developers have posted back actual logs of what the person did, and the warnings they got and the back and forth between them and support over it, all to say... "here is why that was fair" - which quickly caused people to change their opinion of the actions having been fair or not.

Also when we get accused for not sympathizing when the comments come into here... that will be a little harder to do when everyone can go look at some listing and see what for.

I feel not having it all transparent creates a cloud of suspicion on things. We end up suspect of each other, and suspect of the lindens.

 

But this was a side track... and its just my wishlist item, that you folks don't agree to. We all know its not going to happen anyway as LLs seems to be as anti-transparency as a company can get...

 

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This chart is way out of date, but it's interesting to see what LL use to do in response to ARs.   Looking at the chart it looks like you really have to mess up to over and over to get banned, after looking at 25 pages I din't see any banning.  Most just get a warning, and for the short suspensions, some people may have just not logged in that day any way and missed their penalty.  So even when LL dose respond one they will never tell you what was done, and the first few times they do something it won't have any effect that can be seen.

http://gridsurvey.com/blotter.php

 

If LL dosen't take care of it there's the options to block/mute/derender/bann from land.

If some one is a determined griefer then there's very little LL can do, griefers just keep making more new accounts which is why you see so many griefers that are 0 days old.  Actually that's a good sign that LL is at least trying to do some thing.

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:


Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Its actually not directly against the forum rules to name and shame.

Its against the forum rules to engage in harrassment here - which is decidedly different.

These are two entirely different things and, yes, they are both inappropriate content as set forth by the Community Guidelines.  The latter falls under the category of "Harassment" and the former under "Interpersonal Disputes or
Negative Personal Commentary
".

Every single time people post something, folks jump in to say don't. I've seen some of those posts not get removed - when they avoided ad hominem and merely stuck to factual issues.

If I go and rez 30 self replicating particle generators on your land with pictures of something obscene... and you come here and post a screenshot of that, with an edit panel open showing me as the owner of the objects.

You have not harassed me.

You have not personally attacked me, in comment or otherwise.

You have not disputed me, personally or otherwise.

You just shown what happened and who did it. And I think this is where we will just end up disagreeing.

I see the 'attack' in the character and tone of what one says and how one acts. Basically if you're "unsporting" to others, creating a hostile atmosphere or going after people's reputations. But I don't see exposing truth, posting facts, as attacking a reputation.

I think you're seeing, unlike me, 'truthtelling' as engaging in a dispute.

This gets muddled so often because in most of the truthtelling posts, the poster also says things that are attacks like:

"X is a thief, X intentionally frauds people, X lied about Y, X is a hateful griefer."

- passing judgement. And that is where the harrass, attack, and dispute come in.

Very rare is the poster who seems able to say "this happened like so by such and such" without adding judgementalism to it.

There is no such thing as a truth-telling post, simply because there's absolutely no way for us to decipher what the truth actually is... only LL can do that.  Screenshots can very easily be doctored, thus rendering them useless, unless they can be reinforced with actual evidence, such as the type that is only accessible to LL.

As such, someone posting what you might consider to be a truth-telling post, could very well be making the whole thing up in order to engage in Personal Negative Commentary, regardless of "the character and tone" of what they've said.

 


Pussycat Catnap wrote:


Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Personally I think they should not only tell us the results, but post them on a public page somewhere, with names.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable about the public page idea, but I do believe that there should definitely be more transparency regarding the whole AR process,


What I desire here is accountability. Sure some will 'wear that badge with pride' but if folks saw that for example... Pussycat Catnap was cited with possession of Catnip a dozen times... they'd start hiding the catnip around me...
:)

Or more pointedly, if someone is getting temp bans every few days for griefing sims - people would rightly put them on block lists ahead of time.

And that 'badge' would get isolating.

Consequence occurs. And once that's around, bad actors would feel more desire to shape up. Some would resort to throwaway alts of course... But you'd have to take such measures more than otherwise is normal to act out.

 

I just don't believe that the outcome of ARs which don't directly involve myself are any of my business.  I honestly couldn't care less to know about that for which you or anyone else is cited.  I feel that I can rest assured knowing that should you be getting temp bans every few days for griefing sims, eventually, you'll get perma-banned; at which point, you'll probably create an alt and continue with such behavior, just as it is now... and all without ever having to know a thing about it.

...Dres

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