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LaskyaClaren wrote:


<snip>

First, I doubt that the teen grid was losing money "hand over fist." It just wasn't big enough to be that big a drain. I am sure it is dwarfed in size by the number of empty mainland parcels now.

</snip>

13.4% to 14.2% of Mainland by area is abandoned parcels (details - 6th Jul 2013)

http://gridsurvey.com/index.php

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Perrie Juran wrote:


LaskyaClaren wrote:


<snip>

First, I doubt that the teen grid was losing money "hand over fist." It just wasn't big enough to be that big a drain. I am sure it is dwarfed in size by the number of empty mainland parcels now.

</snip>

13.4% to 14.2% of Mainland by area is abandoned parcels


Thanks. :-)

That's between 870 and 940 regions. A teen grid, or separate continent, wouldn't need nearly that much space, and it would generate some revenue, albeit not as much as a Moderate or Adult area.

 

ETA:

 

According to Wikipedia, "As of January 2, 2010, the Teen Grid had 93 Mainland regions, 7 resident-owned estates, and 97 educational/project estates."

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If I remember correctly, the merging of the teen grid coincided with the dumping of 30% of LL's workforce, which leads me to believe that it's merging had more to do with reducing the manpower needed to support two separate grids, than whether or not it was financially viable.  But, if it was in any way profitable to keep it open, I can't imagine why they wouldn't have just kept it open.  I believe it was most probably a combination of both factors which led to the decision to merge them.  I wouldn't think that, at this point, there would be much incentive to reopen it... since those factors haven't really changed.

...Dres

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Here's the thing. LL doesn't run all of the land in SL. There is no way to move all of the G sim to the same area (technically they could, but people would complain.) If I rented a sim I could have it as G M or A as I choose. LL does not set the land ratings the Sim renter does. I say renter as no one actually owns a sim in SL, we rent them from LL or someone else does.

Perhaps a small continent that was designated G land only would help, like they did with
Ursula
Zindra.

 

that is not the problem that needs to be solved. even if it was, there are plenty of contiguous G regions full of unoccupied land, on the original TSL continent.

the problem is that the teen community was shattered and abandoned, and if LL wants SL to have a functioning one it has to start over with building one, just like it did with the original SL and TSL populatoins.

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ObviousAltIsObvious wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Here's the thing. LL doesn't run all of the land in SL. There is no way to move all of the G sim to the same area (technically they could, but people would complain.) If I rented a sim I could have it as G M or A as I choose. LL does not set the land ratings the Sim renter does. I say renter as no one actually owns a sim in SL, we rent them from LL or someone else does.

Perhaps a small continent that was designated G land only would help, like they did with
Ursula
Zindra.

 

that is not the problem that needs to be solved. even if it was, there are plenty of contiguous G regions full of unoccupied land, on the original TSL continent.

the problem is that the teen community was shattered and abandoned, and if LL wants SL to have a functioning one it has to start over with building one, just like it did with the original SL and TSL populatoins.

While "G" rated does mean that the content can not be 'innapropriate' for 12 year olds, It still does not mean that the content will appeal to all age groups.

Because of the cost of land, unless somebody either sponsers something or a group of teens pool their resources, without outside support of some kind, not a lot of teen-centric content is going to happen.

There will be some but it will be very minimal.

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

If I remember correctly, the merging of the teen grid coincided with the dumping of 30% of LL's workforce, which leads me to believe that it's merging had more to do with reducing the manpower needed to support two separate grids, than whether or not it was financially viable.  But, if it was in any way profitable to keep it open, I can't imagine why they wouldn't have just kept it open.  I believe it was most probably a combination of both factors which led to the decision to merge them.  I wouldn't think that, at this point, there would be much incentive to reopen it... since those factors haven't really changed.

...Dres

I think this is all correct, Dres. The Wikipedia article I cited also quotes Rosedale as saying that it was the "challenge" of developing both main and teen grids at the same time -- whatever that actually means -- that was behind killing it.

Perrie is making much the same point in his post, above, and you're both right: there is probably not a great deal of immediate money to be made, by either LL or content creators, from a move to cater to teen SL residents.

But the point I'm trying to make, and that I think Obvious is also getting at, is that there is a long term advantage accruing from doing something more to attract, interest, and retain teens. They are, literally, the future of SL, and they are already predisposed to like much of what this platform has to offer because of their existing digital experiences and lifestyle.

The likelihood of a teen who tries Second Life and becomes bored by it because she/he can't find anything of interest or connect to a community of similar people ever coming back when they finally do hit 18 is probably pretty low. They'll remember the lack of community and interesting content, and simply dismiss the place out of hand. Nor will they be spreading the good word about it to their friends.

So, yes, there's probably little or no immediate profit to be made from catering to teens. But in the long term, LL is missing an opportunity to nurture its own future by neglecting potential future users.

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pooled land with groups would work very well, it does for other SL interest groups. old TSL had mainaldn owners, and even some private islands that weren't owned by schools. that is where LL would come in, to provide a beacon of sorts for these people to find one another. search won't do the job, not in a keyword pile where "teen" has become a synonym for "lusty wench". 

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LaskyaClaren wrote:


Dresden Ceriano wrote:

If I remember correctly, the merging of the teen grid coincided with the dumping of 30% of LL's workforce, which leads me to believe that it's merging had more to do with reducing the manpower needed to support two separate grids, than whether or not it was financially viable.  But, if it was in any way profitable to keep it open, I can't imagine why they wouldn't have just kept it open.  I believe it was most probably a combination of both factors which led to the decision to merge them.  I wouldn't think that, at this point, there would be much incentive to reopen it... since those factors haven't really changed.

...Dres

I think this is all correct, Dres. The Wikipedia article I cited also quotes Rosedale as saying that it was the "challenge" of developing both main and teen grids at the same time -- whatever that actually means -- that was behind killing it.

Perrie is making much the same point in his post, above, and you're both right: there is probably not a great deal of immediate money to be made, by either LL or content creators, from a move to cater to teen SL residents.

But the point I'm trying to make, and that I think Obvious is also getting at, is that there is a long term advantage accruing from doing something more to attract, interest, and retain teens. They are, literally, the future of SL, and they are already predisposed to like much of what this platform has to offer because of their existing digital experiences and lifestyle.

The likelihood of a teen who tries Second Life and becomes bored by it because she/he can't find anything of interest or connect to a community of similar people ever coming back when they finally do hit 18 is probably pretty low. They'll remember the lack of community and interesting content, and simply dismiss the place out of hand. Nor will they be spreading the good word about it to their friends.

So, yes, there's probably little or no immediate profit to be made from catering to teens. But in the long term, LL is missing an opportunity to nurture its own future by neglecting potential future users.

I understand what you're saying.  But, in all honestly, I couldn't bring myself to support the promotion of virtual worlds to under-aged individuals.  I believe, in a child's formative years, they should be encouraged to learn to socialize in the real world, before immersing themselves in a fantasy one.  Maybe that's just me.

...Dres

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

I understand what you're saying.  But, in all honestly, I couldn't bring myself to support the promotion of virtual worlds to under-aged individuals.  I believe, in a child's formative years, they should be encouraged to learn to socialize in the real world, before immersing themselves in a fantasy one.  Maybe that's just me.

...Dres

Ah, well. That's a different issue, of course.

I don't know precisely how I feel about this myself, but I'll try to articulate some kind of response.

Kids do immerse themselves in fantasy worlds, through imaginative games and such. And although they are mostly over playing "house" and such by their teens, they are still engaged in other kinds of fantasy, including, most obviously, video games. I think that's fine, myself, I guess: the problems arise not from immersing themselves in fantasy, but from getting completely lost in it. And I think that same could be said, in that regard, about many of the adults here.

As for online socialization generally . . . well, they already do that, via FB, or Twitter, or Snapchat, or whatever. SL is at least a more potentially creative platform than one that limits them to posting lolcats and YouTube videos, no?

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I might be old fashioned but, to me a teen should be out there socializing and seeing things, and not playing in a VW. I have a 7 yo to whom i allowed to play minecraft for about 3 months. The moment he started playing it he got absent. He woudnt even listen to what happend around. It was too inmersive for him, and him beeing a kid coudnt manage it. So i took that away from him, magically i got my kid back. So, again I do feel kids or teens, should be doing something else outside and not in sl or other vw.

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LaskyaClaren wrote:


Dresden Ceriano wrote:

I understand what you're saying.  But, in all honestly, I couldn't bring myself to support the promotion of virtual worlds to under-aged individuals.  I believe, in a child's formative years, they should be encouraged to learn to socialize in the real world, before immersing themselves in a fantasy one.  Maybe that's just me.

...Dres

Ah, well. That's a different issue, of course.

I don't know precisely how I feel about this myself, but I'll try to articulate some kind of response.

Kids 
do
immerse themselves in fantasy worlds, through imaginative games and such. And although they are mostly over playing "house" and such by their teens, they are still engaged in other kinds of fantasy, including, most obviously, video games. I think that's fine, myself, I guess: the problems arise not from immersing themselves in fantasy, but from getting completely lost in it. And I think that same could be said, in that regard, about many of the adults here.

As for online socialization generally . . . well, they already do that, via FB, or Twitter, or Snapchat, or whatever. SL is at least a more potentially creative platform than one that limits them to posting lolcats and YouTube videos, no?

I feel like ramblin'...

I'm in agreement with Dres on the value of kicking kid's away from the computer and out into the wild. Socialization is about more than just texting and pose balling, and virtual worlds fall flat on their nuances. I was excused from my college physics lab because I demonstrated a facility with the physical world beyond what was expected of me. How did that happen? Well, I was home schooled in a house with no video games, no television, no fancy toys (except for a 34HP diesel tractor), a puppet theater, telescopes, microscopes, oscilloscopes, stethoscopes and lots of scrap lumber and yard goods and two big playmates. I'm not sure SL would have been helpful to the childhood me. Interesting? I'm not even sure about that. The learning curve for hammer and nails, needle and thread, is hard to beat.

I can get completely lost in any world, not so much when playing house as when playing doctor.

Yesterday, I think on CBC's "As It Happens", I heard of a study of high school students language skills. They divided the students into those used their phones primarily for texting and those who actually spoke to each other.

Those who texted had better comprehension than those who voiced. The researchers theorize that texters have harder puzzles to solve when reading 1337, relying more on context to discern which of many potential interpretations to apply to what we see as 91883r15H.

Val, Hippie and I sometimes communicate via lolpuppies in Hippie's friends thread, and the neighbor kid off at college communicates his mood by sending me pictures of animals.

Surely you've heard artists claim that "limitations stimulate creativity". Google that phrase.

If there's an engaging mind (many teens have em!) on the other end of a conversation, the mechanism don't matter much.

;-)

 

 

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Regular social skills need to be learned. Its never the same to text someone tan to speak to someone looking at their eyes. Sounds old, I bet, but its true. Also for some kids I dont if all its very difficult to find interest in the real life after they spend their time playing in vw or whatever game online. And finally some kids mix reality with fantasy, even some adults do it. Saying this i mean if they get hurted in the game/vw they feel sad in rl. Ive seen this with minecraf. Again im not saying this goes for every kid, but at least mine, he seems happier when he is off games and internet. This comming from a mom that got rased in a higly tecnological home. I had a computer when no one around had it. My father sent me to learn how to program at age 8. I got to chat and play computer games when most of my friends didnt had a clue what was that. But to my sadness my parents always controled that i didnt spend much time in front of the pc. I understand now why. Next generation is a native generation, they will use all the tools no doubt and im not saying they need not to use them. Just saying that somethings are better to be left for when they grow up and can understand the full use an consecuences of what they do.

 

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

As for online socialization generally . . . well, they already do that, via FB, or Twitter, or Snapchat, or whatever. SL is at least a more potentially creative platform than one that limits them to posting lolcats and YouTube videos, no?


Nope, it's not. Sl isn't geared towards teens, so any potential it really has for being "more creative" doesn't much apply to teens.

Now if the teen grid were still available, and actualy marketed, perhaps, but not the sl we have today.  It, in fact, offers much of the same socialization potential as fb, twitter, youtube and anywhere else like that.

My kids are teens, and though they've seen me in sl, and even have their own OS, they have no desire to actually BE in sl. Part of that can be blamed on the fact that my children, although they love technology, can clearly see what social media and the internet in general does to kids their ages. They have no desire to be on fb, twitter, other VWs, etc.. They use youtube to find funny videos, and they do, obviously, use technology, but not to the extent most kids their ages do.  They don't even have their own cell phones, but they don't want them either.

Even my older teen would much prefer to be outdoors and actually interracting with humans face to face. To be honest, I'm really glad my kids don't seem to follow typical norms for kids their ages.  I'm glad they are the weird ones. I don't want them tethered to any electronic device, as they have their entire lives for that.  You're only a kid so long in life and if more parents helped their kids realize this......sigh...reality blows for kids these days, primarily because adults have screwed it up for them.  We don't make it any easier on kids by allowing them to get attached to technologyt ot he point that reality seems boring.  Reality should never be boring to the point that your virtual life(however it is you find that, VWs, social media, etc..) is more fun.  Sure virtual life is fun, but it should never be MORE fun than reality, especially as a kid.  Now of course there are some for whom reality just can't be as good as a virtual life, I do get that, but they don't make up the majority.  

I'm ranting now....

I don't think teens should be in sl, not because I don't like kids, or don't want to socialize with them, or don't think they deserve to have fun.. but because I don't think need yet one more virtual thing, or place, to tether to.  I think reality should be a lot more fun for them, and if their parents gave a rat's behind, they would too. So I blame the parents(even adults in the past) for making reality blow enough that kids NEED electronic devices, social media and VWs to "survive". I don't blame parents entirely, but mostly, I do. I know, because I am one and it would be real easy to let my kids get that tethered to technology. I choose not to, though, and it's a LOT harder than it seems at times.  Especially since I homeschool...and everyone knows what people say about homeschool kids and their lack of socialization ;) (it's a myth, but.. whatever, lol)

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Tari Landar wrote:

Especially since I homeschool...and everyone knows what people say about homeschool kids and their lack of socialization
;)
(it's a myth, but.. whatever, lol)


According to some, I am living proof that home schooled kids can't socialize! ;-)

Tari, I hope you (it sounds like it) are having as much fun as a home school parent as I had as a home school kid. 

... runs outside to play.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Tari Landar wrote:

Especially since I homeschool...and everyone knows what people say about homeschool kids and their lack of socialization
;)
(it's a myth, but.. whatever, lol)


According to some, I am living proof that home schooled kids can't socialize! ;-)

Tari, I hope you (it sounds like it) are having as much fun as a home school parent as I had as a home school kid.
 

... runs outside to play.

Hahahaha. Yes I know, my kids are the most anti-social beings in the world. Hence why I rarely see them from sun up to sun down-even in crappy weather. ;)

It's a bit funny to hear from other parents around here, as most have that same stereotypical opinion of homeschoolers. Though to most of them, my kids seem to be the exception, as my kids are the ones who get all the others around here outside and away from the tv, pc, video games, etc... The kids around here hate it when we go on vacation(which we are for the next two weeks, and leaving Sunday) because they have no one to play with. As much as my kids love technology, they really shy away from it during most hours of the day. I love that even my teens still play outside and enjoy being kids.

We absolutely love homeschooling, every aspect of it.  The world is our classroom, and it is absolutely awesome! This year has been a very interesting year though, as I'm going back to school myself to finish getting my degree.

Totally went off topic there.. YAY for derailment :D

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Tari Landar wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Tari Landar wrote:

Especially since I homeschool...and everyone knows what people say about homeschool kids and their lack of socialization
;)
(it's a myth, but.. whatever, lol)


According to some, I am living proof that home schooled kids can't socialize! ;-)

Tari, I hope you (it sounds like it) are having as much fun as a home school parent as I had as a home school kid.
 

... runs outside to play.

Hahahaha. Yes I know, my kids are the most anti-social beings in the world. Hence why I rarely see them from sun up to sun down-even in crappy weather.
;)

It's a bit funny to hear from other parents around here, as most have that same stereotypical opinion of homeschoolers. Though to most of them, my kids seem to be the exception, as my kids are the ones who get all the others around here outside and away from the tv, pc, video games, etc... The kids around here hate it when we go on vacation(which we are for the next two weeks, and leaving Sunday) because they have no one to play with. As much as my kids love technology, they really shy away from it during most hours of the day. I love that even my teens still play outside and enjoy being kids.

We absolutely love homeschooling, every aspect of it.  
The world is our classroom, and it is absolutely awesome!
This year has been a very interesting year though, as I'm going back to school myself to finish getting my degree.

Totally went off topic there.. YAY for derailment
:D

I loved family vacations (I'm an only). I think our first big camping trip was in 1976, when I got to eat strawberry snow (tastes like watermelon rind) in the Rockies above Estes Park Colorado. We were there during the Big Thompson Flood, which killed 143 people. Four years later, we were about 100 miles from Mount St. Helens when she blew. We camped at Yellowstone and watched a park ranger set a bear cage trailer in the slot next to ours. I once used Dad as a matress because our tent flooded and we had only two cots.

I've been inside the Stanford Linear Accelerator and leaned out of a helicopter (in the rain, owwie!) to drop virgin paper dolls into Mauna Loa. I enjoyed Bunraku in Kyoto and watched people eat live baby octupus (I won't link to that, but kids seem to love

. One bite was enough for me, I had to share with Mom and Dad ;-). I saw dapper businessmen in three piece suits reading porn comics on the Shinkansen, or passed out next to beer vending machinesI met the founders of Pixar long before it was a household name.

I've been hit by golf ball sized hail (big owwie!), seen tornadoes and witnessed lightning strike trees and houses. I've fed a cat by milking a cow. I've made simple crop circles in the moonlight.

And all of this because my parents shared your understanding that the world is our classroom. I'm happy for you and your kids!

ETA: Mom and Dad worked from home, so every day was "Take Your Daughter to Work" day!

:-).

 

 

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I thought LL put in an "18 years of age or older" rule. Someone told me that it is possible to be AR'd and banned for being under 18 in real life. But I am not positive. Just what I have heard.

 

Also, I was never around for teen grid. I joined last December and have since made 4 accounts. Not for the typical reasons of "hiding", but I like to RP, many different things. One avi for Neko RP, one for kid RP, one for regular socializing (based on my RL self), and one for handling all my business. Such as my credit card. And I must say, as a SL kid myself, there are lots of places for you to go as a teen. Even on G sims. There's a designated sim or few that are dubbed the "kids grid", which have a few of the known kid shops in it, along with its own city. There's also clubs like this. I've learned in my time on SL that just because YOU think the sim is dead, doesn't mean it is. It could be an Australian based sim, and you're running on SLT. Or, it could be a RP sim that works on a certain time frame. Some clubs have REAL hours. Like "open from 9am-12am SLT". Which means any times other than that, expect no one to be there. If I knew the advertising rules better, I would give you the name of a place or two. Very popular G rated clubs and areas. Just need to join groups and keep an eye on their notices to see when things are going. And even as a kid avi, I'm allowed anywhere, just with restrictions on my actions. But even so, most sim owners do not like kid avies. So I've had to go on this mission myself. Best of luck!

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sweetone14 wrote:

I thought LL put in an "18 years of age or older" rule. Someone told me that it is possible to be AR'd and banned for being under 18 in real life. But I am not positive. Just what I have heard.

 

Also, I was never around for teen grid. I joined last December and have since made 4 accounts. Not for the typical reasons of "hiding", but I like to RP, many different things. One avi for Neko RP, one for kid RP, one for regular socializing (based on my RL self), and one for handling all my business. Such as my credit card. And I must say, as a SL kid myself, there are lots of places for you to go as a teen. Even on G sims. There's a designated sim or few that are dubbed the "kids grid", which have a few of the known kid shops in it, along with its own city. There's also clubs like this. I've learned in my time on SL that just because YOU think the sim is dead, doesn't mean it is. It could be an Australian based sim, and you're running on SLT. Or, it could be a RP sim that works on a certain time frame. Some clubs have REAL hours. Like "open from 9am-12am SLT". Which means any times other than that, expect no one to be there. If I knew the advertising rules better, I would give you the name of a place or two. Very popular G rated clubs and areas. Just need to join groups and keep an eye on their notices to see when things are going. And even as a kid avi, I'm allowed anywhere, just with restrictions on my actions. But even so, most sim owners do not like kid avies. So I've had to go on this mission myself. Best of luck!

As a child av you are not allowed to go anywhere you want. If you go to a sex sim be prepared to be banned as child avs can not be around adult material.

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No, you're wrong. Child avies can not PARTICIPATE in adult situations. Meaning pose balls, and sexual play. Everything else is fair game.

 

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Avatar/Policies-on-child-avatars-on-mature-or-adult-sims/qaq-p/1331563

 

Policies towards child avatars are largely focused on the actions of the avatars, not the avatars themselves.

Child avatars are allowed within Second Life.[1] A child avatar, even within a mature or adult region (but not participating in adult (in this case, sexual) ) activities is allowed. A child avatar is allowed do everything any other avatar is, with the following exceptions:

Child avatars in sexual situations (sexual congress obviously, though it is unclear beyond this) are not allowed and abuse reportable (ARable).

Public promotion (classified listing, profile, etc.) of sexual situations with child avatars is not allowed and ARable.

Creating areas for the purpose of sexual ageplay is not allowed and is ARable. This includes having items with sexual content (sexual poseballs or equipment) in proximity to items traditionally associated with children (swingsets, etc.)

Indicating that the *real age* of a child avatar (as opposed to a stated SL/role playing age) is below main grid age is not allowed and ARable.

Child avatar nudity has been called into question as well. While no language specific to nudity was included in the initial policies, child avatar nudity of the genital or chest regions, including in otherwise non-sexual situations (skin vendors, for example) can be a violation. This also applies to parcel descriptions: nudity or "clothing optional" language can not be included in a parcel description on a kid-specific area.

Note that child avatars are allowed on PG, Mature, and even Adult public parcels, provided with the latter that they are adult verified. Note that this does not necessarily apply to private parcels where one has the option to eject or ban as desired. The allowance of child avatars on adult rated land such as Zindra does not invalidate any of the above rules.

As with all things, context is key, and err on the side of caution.

 

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Drake is actually right. While according to the ToS any forms of avatars are permitted to go anywhere an owner of an adult sim with pose balls would be stupid not to band child avatars. They do not want to be banned for promoting child play of that character.

 

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You need to be careful when reading the Forums and the Wiki.

The page you linked is NOT LINDEN LAB OFFICIAL.

The Official Policy States:

 

Are child avatars allowed on Adult regions?

"Yes, child avatars are allowed in Adult regions, as long as they are controlled by a person who has verified themselves to be at least 18 years old. However, the avatar should not be in proximity to sexual content or activity; and must obey the policy prohibiting sexual ageplay.

Since Adult regions by design will often contain sexual content, child avatars should use caution in visiting Adult regions."

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Adult_Content_FAQ#Are_child_avatars_allowed_on_Adult_regions.3F

The prohibition is not limited to just participating.  Child Ava's are not to be in proximity to such content either.

 

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sweetone14 wrote:

I thought LL put in an "18 years of age or older" rule. Someone told me that it is possible to be AR'd and banned for being under 18 in real life. But I am not positive. Just what I have heard.

 

Also, I was never around for teen grid. I joined last December and have since made 4 accounts. Not for the typical reasons of "hiding", but I like to RP, many different things. One avi for Neko RP, one for kid RP, one for regular socializing (based on my RL self), and one for handling all my business. Such as my credit card. And I must say, as a SL kid myself, there are lots of places for you to go as a teen. Even on G sims. There's a designated sim or few that are dubbed the "kids grid", which have a few of the known kid shops in it, along with its own city. There's also clubs like this. I've learned in my time on SL that just because YOU think the sim is dead, doesn't mean it is. It could be an Australian based sim, and you're running on SLT. Or, it could be a RP sim that works on a certain time frame. Some clubs have REAL hours. Like "open from 9am-12am SLT". Which means any times other than that, expect no one to be there.
If I knew the advertising rules better, I would give you the name of a place or two
. Very popular G rated clubs and areas. Just need to join groups and keep an eye on their notices to see when things are going. And even as a kid avi, I'm allowed anywhere, just with restrictions on my actions. But even so, most sim owners do not like kid avies. So I've had to go on this mission myself. Best of luck!

You can post them here or, if you're not sure, you can PM or IM them to the person.

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