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Wanted a In World Attorney to Handle Estate Matters

don Berithos

By don Berithos,
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Pussycat Catnap

Pussycat Catnap

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The TOS pretty much givers those renting land from others in SL no rights at all. Anything the landlord wishes to do is fair game, and the tenant has no recourse.

It is not 'Real Property' so not covered by any such laws. Nor is it Chattel Property and covered by those laws.

Its really a contract for services - but it comes with the caveat of no enforcement body (the lindens will not get involved), and the 'landlord' is actually not an owner, but also a person renting a service from LLs.

There really is no 'law' here for anyone to advice you on.

If you are the landlord, do whatever you want subject to how it could impact your business and personal sense of ethics. If you are the tenant - caveat emptor, only get involved with people you have reason to trust.

 

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don Berithos

don Berithos

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We are more interested in litigation of people that defame our groups residents and clubs If Secondlife wont get invoved theres no protection of your investments . There are TOS and Code of conducts thats are going on ,That need to be addressed on a daily basis . Are residents groups and investors deserve more than Secondlife is offering or currently doing .

We would set up a abrition board in Estate as well as a AR review panel . Secondlife and Linden Labs need to address the very basics of TOS and Codes of Conduct in World and those being shared out of world via Social media and Websites and Blogs.  Example posting in world residents chats on Blogs . Facebook twitter etc. .

Post that encourgae others to break TOS and to defame groups via Social Media , Blogs , Etc. Out of World . 

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So Whimsy

So Whimsy

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The posting of chatlogs outside of SL is NOT against the TOS.

If you'd like an actual attorney you will have to hire one in RL. Even if you do find a RL attorney in Second Life you will be charged RL wages for their work.

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don Berithos

don Berithos

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  1. Disclosure

    Residents are entitled to a reasonable level of privacy with regard to their Second Life experience. Sharing personal information about your fellow Residents without their consent -- including gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual preference, alternate account names, and real-world location beyond what is provided by them in their Resident profile -- is not allowed. Remotely monitoring conversations in Second Life, posting conversation logs, or sharing conversation logs without the participants' consent are all prohibited.

     

    Welcome to the Second Life world!

    We hope you'll have a richly rewarding experience, filled with creativity, self expression and fun.

    The goals of the Community Standards are simple: treat each other with respect and without harassment, adhere to local standards as indicated by simulator ratings, and refrain from any hate activity which slurs a real-world individual or real-world community. Behavioral Guidelines - The 'Big Six'

    Within Second Life, we want to support Residents in shaping their specific experiences and making their own choices.

    The Community Standards sets out six behaviors, the 'Big Six', that will result in suspension or, with repeated violations, expulsion from the Second Life Community.

    All Second Life Community Standards apply to all areas of Second Life, the Second Life Forums, and the Second Life Website.

    1. Intolerance

      Combating intolerance is a cornerstone of Second Life's Community Standards. Actions that marginalize, belittle, or defame individuals or groups inhibit the satisfying exchange of ideas and diminish the Second Life community as a whole. The use of derogatory or demeaning language or images in reference to another Resident's race, ethnicity, gender, religion, or sexual orientation is never allowed in Second Life.

    2. Harassment

      Given the myriad capabilities of Second Life, harassment can take many forms. Communicating or behaving in a manner which is offensively coarse, intimidating or threatening, constitutes unwelcome sexual advances or requests for sexual favors, or is otherwise likely to cause annoyance or alarm is Harassment.

    3. Assault

      Most areas in Second Life are identified as Safe. Assault in Second Life means: shooting, pushing, or shoving another Resident in a Safe Area (see Global Standards below); creating or using scripted objects which singularly or persistently target another Resident in a manner which prevents their enjoyment of Second Life.

    4. Disclosure

      Residents are entitled to a reasonable level of privacy with regard to their Second Life experience. Sharing personal information about your fellow Residents without their consent -- including gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual preference, alternate account names, and real-world location beyond what is provided by them in their Resident profile -- is not allowed. Remotely monitoring conversations in Second Life, posting conversation logs, or sharing conversation logs without the participants' consent are all prohibited.

    5. Adult Regions, Groups, and Listings

      Second Life is an adult community, but "Adult" content, activity and communication are not permitted on the Second Life "mainland." Such material is permitted on private regions, or on the Adult Continent, Zindra. In either case, any Adult content, activity, or communication, that falls under our Adult Maturity Definition must be on regions designated as "Adult," and will be filtered from non-verified accounts. Other regions may be designated as either "Moderate" or "General." For more information on how to designate land, events, groups, and classified listings, please carefully read the "Maturity Definitions."

    6. Disturbing the Peace

      Every Resident has a right to live their Second Life. Disrupting scheduled events, repeated transmission of undesired advertising content, the use of repetitive sounds, following or self-spawning items, or other objects that intentionally slow server performance or inhibit another Resident's ability to enjoy Second Life are examples of Disturbing the Peace.

    Policies and Policing

     

    Global Standards, Local Ratings

    All areas of Second Life, including the www.secondlife.com website and the Second Life Forums, adhere to the same Community Standards. Regions within Second Life are noted as Safe or Unsafe and should be designated by the SL account holder as either "Adult," "Moderate" or "General." Resident behavior within each region must conform to the respective local rating.

    Warning, Suspension, Banishment

    Second Life is a complex society, and it can take some time for new Residents to gain a full understanding of local customs and mores. Generally, violations of the Community Standards will first result in a Warning, followed by Suspension and eventual Banishment from Second Life. In-World Representatives, called Liaisons, may occasionally address disciplinary problems with a temporary removal from Second Life.

    Global Attacks

    Objects, scripts, or actions which broadly interfere with or disrupt the Second Life community, the Second Life servers or other systems related to Second Life will not be tolerated in any form. We will hold you responsible for any actions you take, or that are taken by objects or scripts that belong to you. Sandboxes are available for testing objects and scripts that have components that may be unmanageable or whose behavior you may not be able to predict. If you chose to use a script that substantially disrupts the operation of Second Life, disciplinary actions will result in a minimum two-week suspension, the possible loss of in-world inventory, and a review of your account for probable expulsion from Second Life.

    Alternate Accounts

    While Residents may choose to play Second Life with more than one account, specifically or consistently using an alternate account to harass other Residents or violate the Community Standards is not acceptable. Alternate accounts are generally treated as separate from a Resident's principal account, but misuse of alternate accounts can and will result in disciplinary action on the principal account.

    Buyer Beware

    Linden Lab does not exercise editorial control over the content of Second Life, and will make no specific efforts to review the textures, objects, sounds or other content created within Second Life. Additionally, Linden Lab does not certify or endorse the operation of in-world games, vending machines, or retail locations; refunds must be requested from the owners of these objects.

    Reporting Abuse

    Residents should report violations of the Community Standards using the Abuse Reporter tool located under the Help menu in the in-world tool bar. We review these abuse reports, and the identity of the reporter is kept strictly confidential.

     

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Fenimore Hapmouche

Fenimore Hapmouche

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"All Second Life Community Standards apply to all areas of Second Life, the Second Life Forums, and the Second Life Website."

 

Posting anything ouside of the SL properties named above is not covered by the community standards, hence, no violation. Linden Lab cannot apply rules and policies that apply to properties other than their own.

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Pussycat Catnap

Pussycat Catnap

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Fenimore Hapmouche wrote:

"All Second Life Community Standards apply to all areas of Second Life, the Second Life Forums, and the Second Life Website."

 

Posting anything ouside of the SL properties named above is not covered by the community standards, hence, no violation. Linden Lab cannot apply rules and policies that apply to properties other than their own.

They actually can, but choose not to because doing so would invariably be a tangled mess.

They can ban people for any lawful (*) reason, or for lack of reason.

 

So they could just say, ban X 'cause' as a result of X going onto website Y and posting 'stuff'.

- And then the drama would have a field day.

  

(*) They could not ban someone for an unlawful reason, for example intentionally banning all people of certain RL sexual identities, which in California is a protected class. Or for example, they couldn't just ban everyone who in RL is a certain ethnic group (waves hello to a certain somebody because OMG there I go making it ALL about race AGAIN. :P ).

Technically they COULD ban people for having LGBT or Black avatars - if they could prove this was NOT done because of anything related to RL (probably not possible to prove) and showed no bias against a RL protectd class (again probably impossible to win that argument) - and if they did, it'd probably spark a lawsuit somewhere that win or lose, would shake up the VR scene.

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UncommonTruth

UncommonTruth

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don Berithos wrote:

The author of  a blog that has posted someone elses convestaion  .. Has aready viotaed this because they had to be handed off to the auther if not there own and chat and a chat log of two other people hence it is covered . 

 

Again this isn't quite right. If it could be shown that the logs were passed within an SL site, you'd be right. But, they could have been passed in an email, or skype, facebook, or any other social media site and again be outside of the TOS. 

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Theresa Tennyson

Theresa Tennyson

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Is it just the sheltered life I lead, or are people in SL way sillier and more estranged from reality than average (which is really saying something)? 

Well it IS sort of the embodiment of Adam Savage's classic reply to being corrected on a fact: - "I reject your reality and substitute my own."

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Madelaine McMasters

Madelaine McMasters

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don Berithos wrote:

We are more interested in litigation of people that defame our groups residents and clubs If Secondlife wont get invoved theres no protection of your investments . There are TOS and Code of conducts thats are going on ,That need to be addressed on a daily basis . Are residents groups and investors deserve more than Secondlife is offering or currently doing .

We would set up a abrition board in Estate as well as a AR review panel . Secondlife and Linden Labs need to address the very basics of TOS and Codes of Conduct in World and those being shared out of world via Social media and Websites and Blogs.  Example posting in world residents chats on Blogs . Facebook twitter etc. .

Post that encourgae others to break TOS and to defame groups via Social Media , Blogs , Etc. Out of World . 

The TOS is not law, it's simply a two party contract of sorts that LL publishes to govern the behavior of customers using their products and services. And, as a two party contract, it has nothing to say about disputes between residents. Nothing.

As the author of the TOS, Linden Lab has no legal obligation to enforce it. They simply have a potential legal right to do so by ejecting residents who don't fullfull their part of the contract. LL is obligated to obey US and California law.

There are real world laws governing defamation of character, but they require real characters.

And so, because real laws operate between real entities in a real world, there can be no litigation within Second Life. Your "arbitration board" would necessarily be fantasy role-play, with no practical teeth, let alone legal chompers.

The last time I needed a lawyer to handle a business problem, she billed USD$600/hr (and she was well worth it). In my six years in SL, I've yet to spend a total of USD$600.

 

 

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Perrie Juran

Perrie Juran

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Is it just the sheltered life I lead, or are people in SL way sillier and more estranged from reality than average (which is really saying something)? 

Ebbe may go down in history for this quote:

"The customer is often wrong when asking for something specific. When they express a need, that’s right. When they tell us how to meet that need, it’s often wrong."

 

Ebbe may have been staying 'politically correct' when he said that.

 

p.s.   /me waves back at a certain purpose who for some odd reason things a certain person would disagree with something they actually agree with here. 

 

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KarenMichelle Lane

KarenMichelle Lane

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seanabrady wrote:

Kinda thinking that shopping for a lawyer on a forum is maybe not the best place to start. Maybe search for lawyers that specialize in online/community type issues. Seems an awfully expensive proposition.

I agree, looking under a rock would yeild more fruit [giggling as I write that]

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Tari Landar

Tari Landar

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don Berithos wrote:

The author of  a blog that has posted someone elses convestaion  .. Has aready viotaed this because they had to be handed off to the auther if not there own and chat and a chat log of two other people hence it is covered . 

 

Unless it was initially transmitted outside of sl.  In which case, it still is NOT covered by SL TOS.

For example, if I were to tell your best friend that you're a poopiehead, and your best friend then takes our conversation and sends it to your email. It would not break SL TOS.  It could *potentially be illegal somewhere outside of SL, but LL is not in control of those areas. So you would have to find out if sharing conversations is illegal wherever it took place, in rl, and then pursue it.

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Madelaine McMasters

Madelaine McMasters

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Posted

Perrie Juran wrote:

Pamela Galli wrote:

Is it just the sheltered life I lead, or are people in SL way sillier and more estranged from reality than average (which is really saying something)? 

Ebbe may go down in history for this quote:

"
The customer is often wrong when asking for something specific. When they express a need, that’s right. When they tell us how to meet that need, it’s often wrong."

 

Ebbe may have been staying 'politically correct' when he said that.

 

p.s.   /me waves back at a certain purpose who for some odd reason things a certain person would disagree with something they actually agree with here. 

 

I don't know if he's politically correct, but my career experience leads me to believe he's correct.

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Dresden Ceriano

Dresden Ceriano

Posted
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Hello, Don... you do realize that you don't need an attorney to file a small claims case, right?  As such, I'd be more than willing to don my Judge Judy avatar and adjudicate these issues accordingly.  Let me know if you're interested and I'll send you over the necessary paperwork.

...Dres *looks forward to judging you*

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KarenMichelle Lane

KarenMichelle Lane

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

don Berithos wrote:

We are more interested in litigation of people that defame our groups residents and clubs If Secondlife wont get involved theres no protection of your investments . There are TOS and Code of conducts thats are going on ,That need to be addressed on a daily basis . Are residents groups and investors deserve more than Secondlife is offering or currently doing .

We would set up a abrition board in Estate as well as a AR review panel . Secondlife and Linden Labs need to address the very basics of TOS and Codes of Conduct in World and those being shared out of world via Social media and Websites and Blogs.  Example posting in world residents chats on Blogs . Facebook twitter etc. .

Post that encourage others to break TOS and to defame groups via Social Media , Blogs , Etc. Out of World . 

The TOS is not law, it's simply a two party contract of sorts that LL publishes to govern the behavior of customers using their products and services. And, as a two party contract, it has nothing to say about disputes between residents. Nothing.

As the author of the TOS, Linden Lab has no legal obligation to enforce it. They simply have a potential legal right to do so by ejecting residents who don't fulfill their part of the contract. LL is obligated to obey US and California law.

There are real world laws governing defamation of character, but they require real characters.

And so, because real laws operate between real entities in a real world, there can be no litigation within Second Life. Y
our "arbitration board" would necessarily be fantasy role-play, with no practical teeth, let alone legal chompers.

The last time I needed a lawyer to handle a business problem, she billed USD$600/hr (and she was well worth it). In my six years in SL, I've yet to spend a total of USD$600.

Lets do some simple and irrelevant math shall we?

1 Club Leases a 4096 sqm parcel for lets say L$6000/mo

1 Club Owner hires a manager for lets say :$1000/wk

1 Club Manager hires for tips only Staff & DJ's for lets say L$0000/wk

1 Club Owner pays L$30/wk for basic parcel search enhancements

1 Club Owner puts up a donation thermometer to solicit for donations to offset costs and because of the nice mix of DJ's and staff an income stream of L$5000/mo

Extrapolating this to an annual income/expense we get:

Expenses:

L$6000 x 12 - L$72,000/yr

L$1000 x 52 = L$52,000yr

L$0000 x 52 = L$0000/yr but most active Owners actually donate to their staff tip objects so lets say L$52,000/yr

L$30 x 52 = L$1560/yr

Income:

L$5000 x 12 = L$60,000

So the real exposure to the owner is L$72,000/yr + L$52,000yr + L$00,000 + L$1560/yr - L$60,000 = [ L$65,560 or $265.43 USD.]

Add $210.00 USD to that if you tip your staff out of pocket as many owners do for a total loss per year of $475.43 USD

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SO YOU WANT TO HIRE A LAWYER TO PROTECT THE REPUTATION OF A BUSINESS THAT NETS A LOSS OF $265 USD PER YEAR

.....TAP TAP TAP.....IS THIS WORKING?

:P

 

I ran a successful club back ages ago with 2 partners and our goal was not profit oriented. We were happy to have a great Classic Rock experience for our VIPs and come close to breaking even. On paper we may have broke even a few months of the 3 years we were open but honestly we tithed into the club more pocket change to bolster it up because we were having fun.

NOTE Clubs are notorious money pits - both in Second Life and Real Life.

 

 

 

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