Marketing Second Life: We Can Do Better

[LaskyaClaren]

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

Stuff that gets people riled up....

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 Well, it's good to see you haven't loss your knack!   A talent it is...  ; )

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Well, one tries to keep in practice.

Although I might perhaps note that Sy was really the only person in this thread to take it to that level. In a thread with 175 posts, that seems to suggest . . . that I'm not trying hard enough?

;-)

[Derek Torvalar]

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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Derek Torvalar wrote:

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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Derek Torvalar wrote:

Awww my lovely painting got removed. And they called it 'porn'!

Philistines!

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What did you expect? The Impressionists are SCANDALOUS!

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Then there is no hope.

And leave Rob 'Falstaff' Ford alone! He is a man of the people!

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I'll just insert this after the end:

"This advertisement was paid for by the Committee to Elect 

Anyone

But Rob Ford."

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You can add Kathleen Wynne's name to that too!

 

[LaskyaClaren]

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Derek Torvalar wrote:

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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Derek Torvalar wrote:

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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Derek Torvalar wrote:

Awww my lovely painting got removed. And they called it 'porn'!

Philistines!

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What did you expect? The Impressionists are SCANDALOUS!

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Then there is no hope.

And leave Rob 'Falstaff' Ford alone! He is a man of the people!

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I'll just insert this after the end:

"This advertisement was paid for by the Committee to Elect 

Anyone

But Rob Ford."

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You can add Kathleen Wynne's name to that too!

 

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Not a big fan, I'll admit. But if "anyone" includes Hudak, I'm out. :-)

[Celestiall Nightfire]

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

The rhetoric you've identified,..... particularly associated with elements of the right. It is the rhetoric of division, of divide and conquer.

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*Laughs*  Oh please....may I point you to the rhetoric of the left?!   Pretty please with sugar on top?   It's chock full of....you know.....those elements!   (...rhetoric of division, of divide and conquer.)   along with insults, etc.  

(You do know Sy's not on the right....right?  But, since you're so far to the left.....you'll cast him there)

[LaskyaClaren]

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

The rhetoric you've identified,..... particularly associated with elements of the right. It is the rhetoric of division, of divide and conquer.

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*Laughs*  Oh please....may I point you to the rhetoric of the left?!   Pretty please with sugar on top?   It's chock full of....you know.....those elements!   (...rhetoric of division, of divide and conquer.)   along with insults, etc.  

(You do know Sy's not on the right....right?  But, since you're so far to the left.....you'll cast him there)

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Every ideology has a rhetoric, Celestiall, and that definitely includes the Left. I find much of it equally annoying, divisive, and stupid (if not always quite so hate-filled).

And I actually didn't call Sy a right-winger. I've really no idea what he is: I was simply noting the similarity between the language he uses, and a kind of rhetoric that has become really characteristic of a particular brand of conservative.

(And please note, also, that I said elements of the Right).

[Derek Torvalar]

See what happens.

They take away the Art and the whole thread devolves into political bickering.

 

[LaskyaClaren]

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Derek Torvalar wrote:

See what happens.

They take away the Art and the whole thread devolves into political bickering.

 

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And the Sugar.

[Derek Torvalar]

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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Derek Torvalar wrote:

See what happens.

They take away the Art and the whole thread devolves into political bickering.

 

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And the Sugar.

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That's what I was referring to. Ohhh you thought I meant the Seurat. An honest mistake.

[LaskyaClaren]

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Derek Torvalar wrote:

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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Derek Torvalar wrote:

See what happens.

They take away the Art and the whole thread devolves into political bickering.

 

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And the Sugar.

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That's what I was referring to. Ohhh you thought I meant the Seurat. An honest mistake.

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My apparent lack of comprehension was studied and entirely deliberate, I assure you. :-)

[Celestiall Nightfire]

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

The rhetoric you've identified,..... particularly associated with elements of the right. It is the rhetoric of division, of divide and conquer.

---

*Laughs*  Oh please....may I point you to the rhetoric of the left?!   Pretty please with sugar on top?   It's chock full of....you know.....those elements!   (...rhetoric of division, of divide and conquer.)   along with insults, etc.  

(You do know Sy's not on the right....right?  But, since you're so far to the left.....you'll cast him there)

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Every ideology has a rhetoric, Celestiall, and that definitely includes the Left. I find much of it equally annoying, divisive, and stupid (if not always quite so hate-filled).

And I actually didn't call Sy a right-winger. I've really no idea what he is: I was simply noting the

similarity between the language

he uses, and a

kind of rhetoric

that has become

really characteristic

of a

particular brand

of conservative.

(And please note, also, that I said 

elements

of the Right).

---

I didn't notice anything that seemed conservative in his write up.   Argumenative, yes.  But, conservative?   Huh?   (Dillion was way closer with "elitist"...which is not the same as conservative)

What language?  What chararactersitics?   What "brand"?     Can you provide some examples?  Perhaps links to articles, threads, or political commentary?      As I'm not seeing what you claim.  

 

[LaskyaClaren]

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

The rhetoric you've identified,..... particularly associated with elements of the right. It is the rhetoric of division, of divide and conquer.

---

*Laughs*  Oh please....may I point you to the rhetoric of the left?!   Pretty please with sugar on top?   It's chock full of....you know.....those elements!   (...rhetoric of division, of divide and conquer.)   along with insults, etc.  

(You do know Sy's not on the right....right?  But, since you're so far to the left.....you'll cast him there)

---

Every ideology has a rhetoric, Celestiall, and that definitely includes the Left. I find much of it equally annoying, divisive, and stupid (if not always quite so hate-filled).

And I actually didn't call Sy a right-winger. I've really no idea what he is: I was simply noting the

similarity between the language

he uses, and a

kind of rhetoric

that has become

really characteristic

of a

particular brand

of conservative.

(And please note, also, that I said 

elements

of the Right).

---

I didn't notice anything that seemed

conservative

in his write up.   Argumenative, yes.  But, conservative?   Huh?   (Dillion was way closer with "elitist"...which is not the same as conservative)

What language?  What chararactersitics?   What "brand"?     Can you provide some examples?  Perhaps links to articles, threads, or political commentary?      As I'm not seeing what you claim.  

 

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Um, again, I didn't say that Sy was conservative. I said that his class-based stereotypes and language was characteristic of a particular kind of conservative rhetoric.

And I did give a very concrete example: Rob Ford has built his political career on demonizing the citizens of Toronto's downtown as an effete intellectual elite, and "championing" the city's blue collar suburbs. So effective a strategy has it been, that the city's voting patterns, in the last mayoral election, broke down almost exactly along those geographical lines, with the downtown voting pretty solidly against him, and the suburbs for him.

I'm sure you can find other examples of the same phenomenon, with a little help from Google. I wish I could take credit for the idea, but it's been around a while.

[Celestiall Nightfire]

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

---

LaskyaClaren wrote:

---

Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

---

LaskyaClaren wrote:

The rhetoric you've identified,..... particularly associated with elements of the right. It is the rhetoric of division, of divide and conquer.

---

*Laughs*  Oh please....may I point you to the rhetoric of the left?!   Pretty please with sugar on top?   It's chock full of....you know.....those elements!   (...rhetoric of division, of divide and conquer.)   along with insults, etc.  

(You do know Sy's not on the right....right?  But, since you're so far to the left.....you'll cast him there)

---

Every ideology has a rhetoric, Celestiall, and that definitely includes the Left. I find much of it equally annoying, divisive, and stupid (if not always quite so hate-filled).

And I actually didn't call Sy a right-winger. I've really no idea what he is: I was simply noting the

similarity between the language

he uses, and a

kind of rhetoric

that has become

really characteristic

of a

particular brand

of conservative.

(And please note, also, that I said 

elements

of the Right).

---

I didn't notice anything that seemed

conservative

in his write up.   Argumenative, yes.  But, conservative?   Huh?   (Dillion was way closer with "elitist"...which is not the same as conservative)

What language?  What chararactersitics?   What "brand"?     Can you provide some examples?  Perhaps links to articles, threads, or political commentary?      As I'm not seeing what you claim.  

 

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Um, again, I didn't say that Sy was conservative.

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I never indicated that you said Sy was a conservative.  I quoted what you said!   I then wrote:   "I didn't notice anything that seemed conservative in his write up".   As you had written:

"I was simply noting the similarity between the language he uses, and a kind of rhetoric that has become really characteristic of a particular brand of conservative."

So, you're saying what he wrote reads like that of a, "particular brand of conservative."

 

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

 I said that his class-based stereotypes and language was characteristic of a particular kind of conservative rhetoric.

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and I asked for example or links that would show this. 

Do you have any articles, commentatirs or write-ups that you can link to, which will give examples of this, "class-based stereotypes and language was characteristic of a particular kind of conservative rhetoric."?     As I only have your word for it.  

 

 

 

 

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

And I did give a very concrete example: Rob Ford has built his political career on demonizing the citizens of Toronto's downtown as an effete intellectual elite, and "championing" the city's blue collar suburbs. So effective a strategy has it been, that the city's voting patterns, in the last mayoral election, broke down almost exactly along those geographical lines, with the downtown voting pretty solidly against him, and the suburbs for him.

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I've no clue who Rob Ford is, nor have I read anything he's said or written.  So, are you able to link to articles, commentatires, or write-ups that quote him?   Also, is this guy the only one you can think of to illustrate the, "particular brand of conservative."?   As that seems rather narrow to create a brand....that you now claim is also being presented through Sy's writeup.

 

 

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

I'm sure you can find other examples of the same phenomenon, with a little help from Google. I wish I could take credit for the idea, but it's been around a while.

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Show me!   Links to articles, commentaries, or quotes. 

 

 

 

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Derek Torvalar wrote:

See what happens.

They take away the Art and the whole thread devolves into political bickering.

 

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Too bad that wasn't "art."

[Perrie Juran]

 

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Derek Torvalar wrote:

See what happens.

They take away the Art and the whole thread devolves into political bickering.

 

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Too bad that wasn't "art."

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Perhaps we should try some music instead.

[Derek Torvalar]

Might be worth a try. 

Though I should have guessed that topless/nude Avs would not go over here.

I wonder if I had chosen a nice Rubens nude to recline on and hid the Av naughty bits if that would get pulled too?

Probably.

[Perrie Juran]

 

As long as we are on the topic of Banner adds, this popped up while browsing the Forum.

Are they hinting at something?

</Humor Break>

[Eve Greymoon]

I was so excited to see this thread!  Bear with me if I have repeated some things others have said.

I am SLs target demographic. Or I should be.  I have time, I have entertainment dollars to spend, I like fashion, art, music...I have NEVER not once seen an ad for SL outside of SL. NOT ONCE.  You should be advertising in the places that will reach me and the professionals like me.

Vogue magazine to reach those who would love to wear the clothes they can never afford to own in RL.  Business publications both online and real world, to reach those people stuck in hotel rooms at night with nothing to do.  In flight magazines! Features on Yahoo Shine or in Forbes online. Homebound mom's...pinterest is popular for a reason. Figure out how to reach them so they can come to SL and create the homes they can't afford in RL.  You get the idea I think.

Expand your idea of what SL is, and who would be interested.  Take the time to understand who uses SL every day, and how best to reach those like them. SLex surely exists, but there are also thriving fashion communities, art communites, music, etc. I have done guided meditation, gone to church, poetry readings...read the blogs about SL, the most popular ones are travel and fashion. This should tell you something important!

Focusing on the avatar is fine...but make them look like the high end avatars many of us create, not the cartoony characters I frequently see in your advertisements.  Same with the environments. You have to entice people, make them drool, make them want it.  The ads you show in your initial post? They don't give anyone any idea at all what SL is about.

Frankly, I don't know how you could expect to know how to market SL unless you spend some serious time there.  I suspect part of the problem is that most of the marketing team doesn't. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. The fact that you think the images you showed us in your initial post are representative of SL in any way proves that.  Those are so 3 years ago. 

 

[Eve Greymoon]

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

Is playing up the 'relationships" and "slex" side of things really achieving much? This is what people 

already

think when they think of SL. Why preach to the converted?

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The problem is though, they're not converted. You shouldn't be advertising to people IN SL already.  They know what it is. You have to reach those outside of SL.  It's rare to find someone outside of SL who's ever even heard of it.  Advertisements don't get you there.  PR does. Articles, features, etc, on all kinds of media.  Radio, television, magazines, online and off. Your goal should be to make "Second LIfe" a household name like any other social platform. YOu don't get there by "advertising".

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Eve Greymoon wrote:

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

Is playing up the 'relationships" and "slex" side of things really achieving much? This is what people 

already

think when they think of SL. Why preach to the converted?

---

The problem is though, they're not converted. You shouldn't be advertising to people IN SL already.  They know what it is. You have to reach those outside of SL.  It's rare to find someone outside of SL who's ever even heard of it.  Advertisements don't get you there.  PR does. Articles, features, etc, on all kinds of media.  Radio, television, magazines, online and off. Your goal should be to make "Second LIfe" a household name

like any other social platform.

YOu don't get there by "advertising".

---

Who says it is a social platform? If I want to sit on my land with ban lines up and breed my cats and never see another SLer, that is my right. How can you call it a social platform with all of the threads about SL bieng empty and lifeless? If all of these SIMs are vacant of life how is it a social platform? Hell, there are people that come to SL and just build for other Grids. SL is what YOU make it to be for YOURSELF. Not for anyone else.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

Can i get a reuben on wheat?

[Eve Greymoon]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Eve Greymoon wrote:

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

Is playing up the 'relationships" and "slex" side of things really achieving much? This is what people 

already

think when they think of SL. Why preach to the converted?

---

The problem is though, they're not converted. You shouldn't be advertising to people IN SL already.  They know what it is. You have to reach those outside of SL.  It's rare to find someone outside of SL who's ever even heard of it.  Advertisements don't get you there.  PR does. Articles, features, etc, on all kinds of media.  Radio, television, magazines, online and off. Your goal should be to make "Second LIfe" a household name

like any other social platform.

YOu don't get there by "advertising".

---

Who says it is a social platform? If I want to sit on my land with ban lines up and breed my cats and never see another SLer, that is my right. How can you call it a social platform with all of the threads about SL bieng empty and lifeless? If all of these SIMs are vacant of life how is it a social platform? Hell, there are people that come to SL and just build for other Grids. SL is what YOU make it to be for YOURSELF. Not for anyone else.

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Down boy.

 

[Sy Beck]

Rob Ford?  Seriously?  And I thought all the gags had already been bagged in this thread.  Oh well, the steady rise of Canadian comedy back to the dizzy heights of Jim Carrey has to begin somewhere I suppose, though I thought Rob Ford was doing a sterling job in his one man show.

However, back on point.  My point remains that you want more advertising or the same budget redirected to appeal to the people who may like the things that you do, which with any cursory glance over your numerous posts on your various avatars is literature and feminism, hence I suspect your dislike of the said ad, a graphic of scantily clad women at the beach; not enough words and not enough clothes for your taste, probably.  I would have given you far more credance for your views if you had proposed this before, rather than as knee jerk reaction to something that you find disagreeable, but which has been the theme of LL's advertising of SL for many, many years.

Your appeal that LL's advertising should reflect everything that is noble and good in SL didn't ring true with me.  I saw somebody whose sensibilities were upset at an advertisement and knowing that they couldn't ban or alter it wanted their own lifestyle views/choices given equal priority and prominence, but knowing that too would not be possible or even fair went for the egalitarian tub-thumping appeal that all interests and perspectives should be reflected in LL's advertising of SL as long as it was agreed by some unknown, un-named group of people that these things are, to their minds at least, "worthy".  Therefore, if you can't beat it, then drown it out and dilute it.

Of course this presents you with a problem.  It is impractical to try and represent everything, let alone represent them equally.  So who is to decide what's worthy to be featured or rather advertised, and for LL, why would they or should they do so?  Remember, LL subsidise or give sims gratis  to educational establishments or "artistes" so it's not as if those who want such things are flocking in their masses to see them or even support them financially.  So who is the one to be discriminatory, elitist and classist and say, 'these are the things I deem worthy that I think somebody else should support so that I may continue or increase my enjoyment."

It may surprise you, but I side with the argument that SL is more than SLex and relationships and that using scantily clad women in ads is the equivalent of peddling crack in advertising, but I wouldn't tell LL who or what to target in their advertising.  It maybe, "Your world.  Your imagination", but it's, "Their business.  Their Policies".  And if the overwhelming majority of the top twenty sims are consistently Adult ones then they [LL] probably have a better idea of their clients and where best to put their marketing buck.  So far at least their acumen in this has made it possible for them to sponsor many of the things that you enjoy.

Anyway, here is a brief example of what marketing looks like when you try to encompass all views and persuasions.  Enjoy the idealism of all encompassing marketing.

 

P.S. Oh btw, you started the ad hominen

The Jerk

P.P.S Who also has spent most of his life with political rhetoric and can assure you that it derives more in the last 30 years from marketing rhetoric than any ideological belief.

P.P.P.S I rarely look at the forums so do not expect any further contribution unless I'm enjoying a particulary good bottle.

P.P.P.P.S Thank you Celeste, for, well, being Celeste.  If more right-wingers were like you then sensible people could move more to the left and have a rational debate with you x :smileywink:

[Phoebe Avro]

The main problem i think is LL seem to have a different idea of what SL is than its residents do, that's not surprising since Lindens don't spend time in SL

I have never understood why LL never advertise SL.

 

 

[Dillon Levenque]

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Phoebe Avro wrote:

The main problem i think is LL seem to have a different idea of what SL is than its residents do, that's not surprising since Lindens don't spend time in SL

I have never understood why LL never advertise SL.

 

 

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That made me smile, because I remember Deltango saying something to me just like that, a few years back: "Sometimes I think LL just doesn't get SL".

These days, I think she may not use the 'sometimes', and I tend to agree. It's like they have no idea what's going on here.  I found it encouraging that the new CEO actually had a child who'd been inworld (and misbehaved, apparently). Perhaps things will change.

[LaskyaClaren]

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Eve Greymoon wrote:

I was so excited to see this thread!  Bear with me if I have repeated some things others have said.

I am SLs target demographic. Or I should be.  I have time, I have entertainment dollars to spend, I like fashion, art, music...I have NEVER not once seen an ad for SL outside of SL. NOT ONCE.  

You should be advertising in the places that will reach me and the professionals like me.

Vogue magazine to reach those who would love to wear the clothes they can never afford to own in RL.  Business publications both online and real world, to reach those people stuck in hotel rooms at night with nothing to do.  In flight magazines! Features on Yahoo Shine or in Forbes online. Homebound mom's...pinterest is popular for a reason. Figure out how to reach them so they can come to SL and create the homes they can't afford in RL.  You get the idea I think.

Expand your idea of what SL is, and who would be interested.

 

Take the time to understand who uses SL every day,

and how best to reach those like them. SLex surely exists, but there are also thriving fashion communities, art communites, music, etc. I have done guided meditation, gone to church, poetry readings...

read the blogs about SL, the most popular ones are travel and fashion. This should tell you something important!

Focusing on the avatar is fine...but make them look like the high end avatars many of us create, not the cartoony characters I frequently see in your advertisements.  Same with the environments. You have to entice people, make them drool, make them want it.  The ads you show in your initial post? They don't give anyone any idea at all what SL is about.

Frankly, I don't know how you could expect to know how to market SL unless you spend some serious time there.

 I suspect part of the problem is that most of the marketing team doesn't. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. The fact that you think the images you showed us in your initial post are representative of SL in any way proves that.  Those are so 3 years ago. 

 

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Thanks for this, Eve. This is a great post, and I think I agree with most if not all of it. I've highlighted the bits that I thought were particularly pertinent. I especially liked your point about the most popular blogs being fashion and "travel" (the latter frequently really being a version of "art" blog, in that they tend to showcase really beautiful or interesting sims).

I also like your point about focusing attention upon those things that SL can provide that we can't necessarily have in RL, which is surely the whole point of it being a "second" life. You've given an interesting marketing twist to the theme!