Marketing Second Life: We Can Do Better

[LaskyaClaren]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

I think this may be the magic bullet.

People think of creativity as building or scripting, etc. -- but the

RP is no doubt the most popular form of creativity in SL, even when it is not called or recognized as RP

. People take objects that others may have made/scripted, whatever, and incorporate them into various roles and RP environments -- historical settings, sci fi, anime, love nest, family home, fantasy, bordello, etc.

This is SL's market -- a very diverse one, but with this fundamental attraction to RP in common (for most if not all).

 

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I agree absolutely. And I don't think it even needs to be 

marketed

as RP. All that needs to be done is to show what is possible.

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Exactly -- I would not have had any idea what 3D RP was when I joined. But renting a little house, then decorating it -- that was RP for me.  Every house, every piece of furniture, every boat, every car, every outfit, every skin or hair -- all parts someone uses in creating their own RP environment, whether for private or public enjoyment. 

 

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Right. And yet so much of LL's marketing, even in the past, has tended to emphasize replicating RL. Remember that nice white suburban family they featured a few years ago when they introduced Linden Homes?

It's not that having a comfy little suburban bungalow, or forming a relationship with someone isn't also a form of RP. It is, mostly. And that, again, is fine.

But focusing on it doesn't highlight the important differences between what we are in RL, and what we can do in SL.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

I think this may be the magic bullet.

People think of creativity as building or scripting, etc. -- but the

RP is no doubt the most popular form of creativity in SL, even when it is not called or recognized as RP

. People take objects that others may have made/scripted, whatever, and incorporate them into various roles and RP environments -- historical settings, sci fi, anime, love nest, family home, fantasy, bordello, etc.

This is SL's market -- a very diverse one, but with this fundamental attraction to RP in common (for most if not all).

 

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I agree absolutely. And I don't think it even needs to be 

marketed

as RP. All that needs to be done is to show what is possible.

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This hardly differentiates SL from other role-play environments. And those other environments often have familiar (or easily accessed) canon/fanon as guidance. Remember when SL tried marketing to the vampire crowd? How'd that go? We probably don't really know how it went, only how we in the forums reacted to it.

Meanwhile...

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/04/29/first-footage-of-world-of-darkness-vampire-mmo-shown

[Pamela Galli]

I agree -- the focus in any ad, I am thinking, should not be one any one RP, but on the diversity of RP opportunities. A collage of opportunities.  Because SL is like that elephant, with all those different parts that the blind men described. It is not any one part but the sum of them.

[Perrie Juran]

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Phoebe Avro wrote:

I worked in a shop some years ago and one of the reps that used to visit us once told me he used to work for a cosmetics company, The first thing you learn he said is that you are selling a dream and its all in the packaging and advertising!

Now also do you remember that movie the original Total Recall , where Arnie goes to the company to buy a virtual holiday?

Where he was asked if he would not prefer an adventure instead of a boring old holiday, where he could be a secret agent on a mission ?

Well that's SL, you can be anything here you want to be^^  and you can have that adventure!

This is what LL should maybe promoting exactly what SL is ..... A Second Life

 

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When I worked in the music industry as a label rep what they told us we were doing was "selling a prepackaged emotional experience."

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Interesting. Part of me is gagging quietly, but interesting . . .

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Why?  If you think about it isn't that a lot of what muisc is about?  Why do people make music? Why do people listen to music?  Granted I understand the problem that some people have with the so called greed of the music labels.  But in and of itself, why would that be a bad thing?

Last summer I went to a presentation by Peter Ashley and he talked a bit about the music industry back in the Sixties.  He said at that time many of the industry execs considred the Rock Musicians a necesary evil.  A lot of the money they were making they were using to fund "Real Music" projects, mainly classical music.  It was an interesting perspective from some one who was on the inside of many things that went on back then.

 

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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ETA. How someone of my particular ideological leanings managed to find herself creating a thread about more effective marketing is actually a bit beyond me. Maybe I'm a little ill . . . ? ;-)

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Open ended sentences can be dangerous.  We could fill in the blank this way:

"Maybe I'm beginning to see the error of my ways........."  

[Pamela Galli]

I have friends who love Day Z so much they boot up their iMacs in Windows to play it :-)  It offers RP opportunities, sounds fun...

Except you die. How annoying. If you want to kill and/or be killed, there are better places than SL. And you can only play in an immutable environment someone else designed. A single environment, not a diversity of them from which to choose.

If you want to make your own environment* or customize it or make up your own rules, without constraints, SL is the place. I think that is the difference -- the amount of creative freedom. 

 

*Or at least have access to the designer of the environment even if you did not design it yourself.

 

ETA: I am betting SLers are the kind who didnt like coloring books nearly as much as a nice blank sheet of paper.

[Dillon Levenque]

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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ETA. To illustrate what I've said above. I created this account in August, and I've been active with it since about December. And I have not ONCE yet been propositioned or run across a sex pose ball.

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Hey, baby. Wanna have a little fun? ;-)

 

 

 

(I was afraid if that comment sat out there unanswered much longer you'd get a complex)

[MizzFuzzyMoran]

bah for peeple who agree with your world your imagination you are not showing much

you are all thinking inside thebox and trying to wrk out how to fix what already exists

instead of starting with what youve got you should be thinking if sl didnt exist what would you want it to be

then sell that

 

[Dillon Levenque]

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MizzFuzzyMoran wrote:

bah for peeple who agree with your world your imagination you are not showing much

you are all thinking inside thebox and

trying to wrk out how to fix what already exists

instead of starting with what youve got you should be thinking if sl didnt exist what would you want it to be

then sell that

 

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Not really. The OP questions how to SELL what already exists. The rest of this Forum, and many of the others, deals with how to fix what already exists.

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

ETA: I am betting SLers are the kind who didnt like coloring books nearly as much as a nice blank sheet of paper.

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Except the users seem to be changing.  Many of the new signups seem to just want a glorified chatroom.  They want an easy learning curve (good luck with that) and the world handed to them on a platter without any effort on their part.  If that is what the advertisements target, then that is what they get - people who expect you to entertain them and if you don't, they leave (or pout, sulk, complain).

The problem of retention probably needs to be addressed before more people are invited in.  I like the idea of themed welcome areas, but it won't matter how many people see an ad and sign up if we can't get them to continue logging in. 

Starting with a coloring book may be what some need to stay, then offering the blank sheet of paper and full palette of colors to mix up when/if they are ready.  A new user may need some structure while they are learning how it all works, a goal, a way to level-up. Too bad mentors aren't available anymore.

[MizzFuzzyMoran]

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

Not really. The OP questions how to SELL what already exists. The rest of this Forum, and many of the others, deals with how to fix what already exists.

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wot already exists isnt selling

so you got to make somethig up that peeple want

even the best marketing will evenchually fail if it tries to sell something that peeple dont want

which is waht has happened to sl

the retension rates are the evidense

[Dillon Levenque]

Most people believe the poor retention rate is a result of SL's steep learning curve and the lack of a really coherent introductory or tutorial sequence. The information is all there, it just hasn't been organized by LL in a structure that a new user can step through.

Marketing SL as a slex machine might not attract the sort of new users willing to take the time to learn. Making a point of showing more of Second Life's possibilities (coupled with creating a real and useful tutorial) might improve the retention rate.

[MizzFuzzyMoran]

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

Most people believe the poor retention rate is a result of SL's steep learning curve and the lack of a really coherent introductory or tutorial sequence.

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most peeple have failed disastrusly to do anything about retension despite spending lots of time and money and using peeple who were supposed to be experts at that sort of thing

i say it is becuase the marketing sold something that sl isnt and peeple found out quickly

you have to sell something that peeple want that you can deliver

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

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MizzFuzzyMoran wrote:

bah for peeple who agree with your world your imagination you are not showing much

you are all thinking inside thebox and

trying to wrk out how to fix what already exists

instead of starting with what youve got you should be thinking if sl didnt exist what would you want it to be

then sell that

 

---

 

Not really. The OP questions how to SELL what already exists. The rest of this Forum, and many of the others, deals with how to fix what already exists.

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Which is why I've been questioning the value of trying to sell SL at all. If I had a defective, misdirected or uncompetitive product, the last thing I'd do is try to make more people aware of it. I'd go quiet (which costs nothing), work like mad to get the thing to a marketable state, then start making noise again.

Although I have my opinion about whether SL is defective (yes), misdirected (yes) and uncompetitive (yes), I have little certainty that my opinion reflects reality. I've gone through most of my life harboring vastly different opinions than the general public. I am not typical. I'm probably attracted to atypical people. So I don't think I know who SL is suited for, nor whether there are enough of them to support SL's growth if only they knew about it.

While we continue to repeat Rosedale's mantra of "Your World, Your Imagination" here, Philip is now all about "emotional bandwidth" over at High Fidelity.

[MizzFuzzyMoran]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

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MizzFuzzyMoran wrote:

bah for peeple who agree with your world your imagination you are not showing much

you are all thinking inside thebox and

trying to wrk out how to fix what already exists

instead of starting with what youve got you should be thinking if sl didnt exist what would you want it to be

then sell that

 

---

 

Not really. The OP questions how to SELL what already exists. The rest of this Forum, and many of the others, deals with how to fix what already exists.

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Which is why I've been questioning the value of trying to sell SL at all. If I had a defective, misdirected or uncompetitive product, the last thing I'd do is try to make more people aware of it. I'd go quiet (which costs nothing), work like mad to get the thing to a marketable state, then start making noise again.

Although I have my opinion about whether SL is defective (yes), misdirected (yes) and uncompetitive (yes), I have little certainty that my opinion reflects reality. I've gone through most of my life harboring vastly different opinions than the general public. I am not typical. I'm probably attracted to atypical people. So I don't think I know who SL is suited for, nor whether there are enough of them to support SL's growth if only they knew about it.

While we continue to repeat Rosedale's mantra of "Your World, Your Imagination" here, Philip is now all about "emotional bandwidth" over at High Fidelity.

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see it isnt just me

 

[LaskyaClaren]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

---

Pamela Galli wrote:

I think this may be the magic bullet.

People think of creativity as building or scripting, etc. -- but the

RP is no doubt the most popular form of creativity in SL, even when it is not called or recognized as RP

. People take objects that others may have made/scripted, whatever, and incorporate them into various roles and RP environments -- historical settings, sci fi, anime, love nest, family home, fantasy, bordello, etc.

This is SL's market -- a very diverse one, but with this fundamental attraction to RP in common (for most if not all).

 

---

I agree absolutely. And I don't think it even needs to be 

marketed

as RP. All that needs to be done is to show what is possible.

---

This hardly differentiates SL from other role-play environments. And those other environments often have familiar (or easily accessed) canon/fanon as guidance. Remember when SL tried marketing to the vampire crowd? How'd that go? We probably don't really know how it went, only how we in the forums reacted to it.

Meanwhile...

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/04/29/first-footage-of-world-of-darkness-vampire-mmo-shown

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Well, two things make SL different from most other MMO or RP environments. The first is, of course, the diversity of possible experiences, which is mostly what we've been harping on about here. The second is the ability to build, which is something we haven't discussed, and maybe should.

As for the vampire thing, that was not well-received for all sorts of reasons. 

 

 

• Bloodlines had already soured most residents on vampires.

   

• Lke the "Avatar" promotion that followed, it was too obviously and cynically an opportunistic attempt to jump on a bandwagon

   

• It was very poorly done

   

• It was too tightly focussed, and didn't address the other things possible

I don't think any of the suggestions here have pointed toward a repetition of those mistakes, even if the focus has been upon RP.

Your remarks sort of suggest that you are giving up the ship. Can you see no alternatives yourself?

[LaskyaClaren]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

When I worked in the music industry as a label rep what they told us we were doing was "selling a prepackaged emotional experience."

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Interesting. Part of me is gagging quietly, but interesting . . .

---

Why?  If you think about it isn't that a lot of what muisc is about?  Why do people make music? Why do people listen to music?  Granted I understand the problem that some people have with the so called greed of the music labels.  But in and of itself, why would that be a bad thing?

Last summer I went to a presentation by Peter Ashley and he talked a bit about the music industry back in the Sixties.  He said at that time many of the industry execs considred the Rock Musicians a necesary evil.  A lot of the money they were making they were using to fund "Real Music" projects, mainly classical music.  It was an interesting perspective from some one who was on the inside of many things that went on back then.

 

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Well, what I'd like to think music is "about" is an interactive engagement with the music that personalizes it through our own interactive engagement with it, rather than a passive consumption of a "prepackaged" product. The emotions it produces should be subjective and personal, and not the automatically generated effects (or affects) of a cleverly-programmed product that has been designed as much by focus groups as by artists.

As for the "marketing" part, that's the "necessary evil" so far as i'm concerned, because it isn't about communication and engagement nearly so much as it is about producing Pavlovian responses in as many people as possible.

[LaskyaClaren]

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Ardvinna wrote:

I don’t know if I can contribute something productive here, because I have very few knowledge about marketing, but I will try.

What other people told here yet about the

Welcome-Areas

is of great importance. This is the first „area under construction“, and this has to be ameliorated.

Here is a need for mentors and tutors (in different languages?). There must be an attention for the different interests, At the very beginning also the geography has to be shown. Perhaps even the history of sl.

I think, there should be explained all the possibilities:

communication , (international) social interaction in all its varieties, creation, but also the wide range for playing (as mentioned here before):

RP, Ego shooter, Third shooter, also the simulations of driving, flying and boating.

 

For the young, non-adult people especially:

The fun to be creative in different areas:

Explanations how the programming and the technic works;

How to create textures, 3D-Models, animations and sounds, machinima;

How to be productive in design, the process of creativity here.

 

Marketing for a more positive image:

Pictures:

I have seen snapshots in the posts, which are far far more beautiful, and attractive than the pictures of LL-marketing. Perhaps panorama pictures would be nice. So LL could make a contest among the photographers here.

The search function of the marketplace is uncomfortable (yes, this is an euphemism.). There must be much better filters like on a site like ebay.

There is no single university from y country here in sl any more, as far as I know. There are university sims from other countries, the most are US-american, but when I am in sl, they are empty. So the aspect of education should be more highlighted. This would change the perception of sl a bit.

In my opinion the art sims, and art events should be far more promoted.

 

Once I was on a PTSD-sim in sl. The visit deeply impressed and affected me.

So the fact, that there are also „theraputical sims“ is less or not known, even among the people in sl. (Certainly these sims should be protected areas). The fact, that sims are used to help people was for me one of the most positive impressions I got of sl!

So I hope, I didn’t waste your time, and at least I contributed one or two points here.:smileyhappy:

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Wow. Far from "wasting our time," Advinna, you make some really great points here.

I liked your focus on some of the non-commercial forms of interaction that SL offers -- educational, for instance, or therapeutic. Why wouldn't we shed some light on that as well?

And your point about the difference in quality between some of the best pics that appear here or on the feeds, and the really bland images that appear in most LL marketing is really well-taken!

[LaskyaClaren]

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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ETA. To illustrate what I've said above. I created this account in August, and I've been active with it since about December. And I have not ONCE yet been propositioned or run across a sex pose ball.

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Hey, baby. Wanna have a little fun? ;-)

 

 

 

(I was afraid if that comment sat out there unanswered much longer you'd get a complex)

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LOL

Thanks Dillon; it's appreciated. :-)

In my own defence, let it be said that I couple of weeks ago I was asked to dance at a club by BOTH a 4m. tall minotaur AND a floating spherical robot!

[Perrie Juran]

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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ETA. To illustrate what I've said above. I created this account in August, and I've been active with it since about December. And I have not ONCE yet been propositioned or run across a sex pose ball.

---

 

Hey, baby. Wanna have a little fun? ;-)

 

 

 

(I was afraid if that comment sat out there unanswered much longer you'd get a complex)

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LOL

Thanks Dillon; it's appreciated. :-)

In my own defence, let it be said that I couple of weeks ago I was asked to dance at a club by BOTH a 4m. tall minotaur AND a floating spherical robot!

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I always remember the time I was propositioned by a Neko and a Purple Unicorn for a threesome.

I hadn't been sufficiently corrupted by SL at that time. 

[LaskyaClaren]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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ETA. To illustrate what I've said above. I created this account in August, and I've been active with it since about December. And I have not ONCE yet been propositioned or run across a sex pose ball.

---

 

Hey, baby. Wanna have a little fun? ;-)

 

 

 

(I was afraid if that comment sat out there unanswered much longer you'd get a complex)

---

LOL

Thanks Dillon; it's appreciated. :-)

In my own defence, let it be said that I couple of weeks ago I was asked to dance at a club by BOTH a 4m. tall minotaur AND a floating spherical robot!

---

I always remember the time I was propositioned by a Neko and a Purple Unicorn for a threesome.

I hadn't been sufficiently corrupted by SL at that time. 

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Does it occur to you that they thought YOU were the exotic one, O Martian?

It's kind of nice to be someone's special kink, isn't it? ;-)

[Perrie Juran]

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

When I worked in the music industry as a label rep what they told us we were doing was "selling a prepackaged emotional experience."

---

Interesting. Part of me is gagging quietly, but interesting . . .

---

Why?  If you think about it isn't that a lot of what muisc is about?  Why do people make music? Why do people listen to music?  Granted I understand the problem that some people have with the so called greed of the music labels.  But in and of itself, why would that be a bad thing?

Last summer I went to a presentation by Peter Ashley and he talked a bit about the music industry back in the Sixties.  He said at that time many of the industry execs considred the Rock Musicians a necesary evil.  A lot of the money they were making they were using to fund "Real Music" projects, mainly classical music.  It was an interesting perspective from some one who was on the inside of many things that went on back then.

 

---

Well, what I'd like to think music is "about" is an interactive engagement with the music that personalizes it through our own interactive engagement with it, rather than a passive consumption of a "prepackaged" product. The emotions it produces should be subjective and personal, and not the automatically generated effects (or affects) of a cleverly-programmed product that has been designed as much by focus groups as by artists.

As for the "marketing" part, 

that's

the "necessary evil" so far as i'm concerned, because it isn't about communication and engagement nearly so much as it is about producing Pavlovian responses in as many people as possible.

---

I don't want to stray too far off topic even though it does relate because we are talking about Marketting.

I see two sides to that.  The one side is people only listening to what they are being fed.

But looking also at me music collection I have a huge variety to choose from.  I can pick and choose which experience I want to live or relive.  And after all, why do people ask a band to do a certain song again or go to hear a particular Symphony more than once.

Any time it's the second performance of a piece it has become prepackaged unless the artist really changes it up.

[Phoebe Avro]

One thing to point out is a vast amount of people that come to sl have no desire to build or create and never do!

[LaskyaClaren]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

I don't want to stray too far off topic even though it does relate because we are talking about Marketting.

I see two sides to that.  The one side is people only listening to what they are being fed.

But looking also at me music collection I have a huge variety to choose from.  I can pick and choose which experience I want to live or relive.  And after all, why do people ask a band to do a certain song again or go to hear a particular Symphony more than once.

Any time it's the second performance of a piece it has become prepackaged unless the artist really changes it up.

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 I take your point, but still disagree somewhat. (And yes, this does relate to marketing and SL, I think).

You're right that some people -- perhaps most people? -- choose to be passive consumers of whatever they are given. Perhaps we might draw a parallel there between a simple first person shooter with an uncomplicated narrative line of the sort that appeals to so many players, and an open-ended place like SL where we build our own narratives?

I'm also going to disagree that the second experience of a work of music -- or of literature, art, or anything else that can evoke intellectual and emotional responses -- is "prepackaged" because it is the same as the first. For one thing, our experiences of art and music and literature are highly contextual: the responses they evoke at any given point owe a great deal to our own subjective experiences at the moment that we are accessing them. So, if I hear a particular song while I am "sad," let's say, that song can actually become associated with sadness for me. It may always evoke sadness in the future, and the memory of that particular moment, but a memory is different from an actual experience: the evocation of that moment and the music are now rolled together in a very different set of associations, emotions, and thoughts, than they were when I was actively sad listening to it.

I think, also, that the best music (and art and literature) repays a second, or third, or tenth experience, because we are always discovering new things about it. The first time I hear a piece of music, I may allow it to wash over me as a complete effect. The second time, I might notice something more particular about it -- the rhythm of the piece, or a particular counterpoint that it employs.

This doesn't happen all of the time, of course. But it happens often enough with the best art and music.

And this is maybe relevant to SL as well, because the place is quite literally never the same, however often I log in. There aren't a great many "games" about which one can say that.

[LaskyaClaren]

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Phoebe Avro wrote:

One thing to point out is a vast amount of people that come to sl have no desire to build or create and never do!

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Very true!

And yet people who don't know how to paint go to art galleries!

I think that it is the fact that it is a place that enables creativity that makes it attractive, even to those who will never build themselves?

[Perrie Juran]

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

I don't want to stray too far off topic even though it does relate because we are talking about Marketting.

I see two sides to that.  The one side is people only listening to what they are being fed.

But looking also at me music collection I have a huge variety to choose from.  I can pick and choose which experience I want to live or relive.  And after all, why do people ask a band to do a certain song again or go to hear a particular Symphony more than once.

Any time it's the second performance of a piece it has become prepackaged unless the artist really changes it up.

---

 I take your point, but still disagree somewhat. (And yes, this 

does

relate to marketing and SL, I think).

You're right that some people -- perhaps most people? -- choose to be passive consumers of whatever they are given. Perhaps we might draw a parallel there between a simple first person shooter with an uncomplicated narrative line of the sort that appeals to so many players, and an open-ended place like SL where we build our own narratives?

I'm also going to disagree that the second experience of a work of music -- or of literature, art, or anything else that can evoke intellectual and emotional responses -- is "prepackaged" because it is the same as the first. For one thing, our experiences of art and music and literature are highly contextual: the responses they evoke at any given point owe a great deal to our own subjective experiences at the moment that we are accessing them. So, if I hear a particular song while I am "sad," let's say, that song can actually become associated with sadness for me. It may always evoke sadness in the future, and the memory of that particular moment, but a memory is different from an actual experience: the evocation of that moment and the music are now rolled together in a very different set of associations, emotions, and thoughts, than they were when I was actively sad listening to it.

I think, also, that the best music (and art and literature) repays a second, or third, or tenth experience, because we are always discovering new things about it. The first time I hear a piece of music, I may allow it to wash over me as a complete effect. The second time, I might notice something more particular about it -- the rhythm of the piece, or a particular counterpoint that it employs.

This doesn't happen all of the time, of course. But it happens often enough with the best art and music.

And this is maybe relevant to SL as well, because the place is quite literally never the same, however often I log in. There aren't a great many "games" about which one can say that.

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Oh, I'll agree from the listener's end there can always be new things to discover.

I've never accepted the 'art for arts sake' arguments.  For an artist to say, "Oh, I just thought it would be interesting to do," doesn't fly with me.  Maybe if they are learning a technique.  But I'd still ask, "why are you learning it?"  Even if it was just to preserve the history of something, why preserve that history?