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Culuf

just let cheaters win contests?

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i am not that old this is only account but spend so much time at clubs..
i am disappoint at recognize the contest cheaters

develop>avatar>show look at

i see people disappear same last name avatar (different username) clearly an alt tp in
can see where cursor goes for vote and they vanish. original avatar reappears

that is the obvious! but also see the alts together
same bunches you see where cursor goes. after contest disappear

is just too easy to see  cheaters

(excuse my english is a little bad) nothing we can do?

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i am not that old this is only account but spend so much time at clubs..
i am disappoint at recognize the contest cheaters

develop>avatar>show look at

i see people disappear same last name avatar (different username) clearly an alt tp in
can see where cursor goes for vote and they vanish. original avatar reappears

that is the obvious! but also see the alts together
same bunches you see where cursor goes. after contest disappear

is just too easy to see  cheaters

(excuse my english is a little bad) nothing we can do?

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Club contests have always been fixed.

Some try things like 'must be there at close of voting for vote to count'...

But its not worth the drama. If you are going to a place for the contest, you're there for the wrong reason - go there to enjoy yourself. Don't even enter the contest - let that be somebody else's drama.

 

 

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It is totally the Club owners perogative what they want to do about it.

Some club owners take steps to try to control it.

Other club owners may not care one bit.

Linden Lab certainly is not going to get involved.

So really there is nothing that you can do about it.

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I realised a long time ago that contests in Second life have an inbuilt tendency towards unfairness.  

1)  People can TP alts in to vote for them

2)  Club owners or managers can use alts as fake 'guests' in the same way, so they get to keep the prizes.

3)  If you want to win a contest, there's a disincentive to vote for the best entrant as that would reduce your own chances.

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I started using the Show-Look-At option  when I entered the military combat part of Second Life, although I do not spend time doing those activities, I still keep the option on. I like to see when people look at my avatar, perving on people, or like what this thread is about, to see people cheating.

I have seen a couple bots that have hid there show-look-at, they really try to hide themselves, making their avatars invisible.

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You could IM the host and tell them what you saw.  Not sure if they'd do anything about it though.  As said before, its up to the Owner and Management to instruct staff on cheats and to remove anyone caught cheating.  As it was also said some contests are rigged so the owner's alt wins and no money is actually paid to the attendees.

If you see obvious cheating and notify the staff and they don't remove that contestant from the contest, then vote with your feet and don't patronize that club.  There are plenty of clubs in SL. 

Personally I dislike contests altogether and choose to go to clubs where they don't have them.  At least the other people there are there for the music and to have a good time, not the money, and tend to be more friendly so my experience is much better. 

The time you spend entering contests and waiting around for a winner, which the chance of it being you is slim, could be spent much better getting an SL Job where you are at least know you are going to get some L's.  If you like clubbing look for a host job and get paid to club.

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I manage a club that does contests. We get the people that come in put their name on the board and leave. Sometimes they will come back before the voting other times not. Then there are the ones that have alts that vote. In our club we have the board set to split the prize. If you get at least one vote you win some. People make decent L going around to diffrent contests. It is a way to get people into a club. Unfortunantly some don't stay and others only show up when you have a contest. Also Dancers are tipped less durring a contest when the majority of people there are there only for the contest. Sad it happens that way. Just the way SL clubs work.

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Culuf wrote:

syo: i turned it on. i dont go with look at on all the time

No, you misunderstood me. In my opinion the feature is absolutly useless, because not only is it inaccurate but people can also turn of that others can see what they are looking at. So if someone wants to hide all the clues you have now on who is an alt of who, they can do that (if they would care).

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Re-iterating what I said in an ealier post, even if it became impossible to cheat in contests, that still wouldn't make them fair.

If you're in a 'best in black' contest to win a prize, which is presumably the reason you enter, you're tempted to vote for someone that you don't think is 'best in black', because if you did, that would reduce your chance of winning.  So to win 'best in black' it might be a good tactic to be a newbie and make a plain black outfit on the sliders, and everyone will vote for you because they don't think you'll win! 

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So, if it is not perfect, it sucks?  

Coping with the world  is one long process of dealing with imperfect information as best you can.  In RL and SL both.  For me, having some information about who is looking at me is useful, even if it is not perfect.

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Rhys Goode wrote:

So, if it is not perfect, it sucks?  

Coping with the world  is one long process of dealing with imperfect information as best you can.  In RL and SL both.  For me, having some information about who is looking at me is useful, even if it is not perfect.

Yes, it sucks. Not because its not perfect, but because its absolutly useless. This feature tells you not really what someone is looking at, not what they are really looking at. And people can turn it off, so others won't get to see anything from this half-correct information. Which if of course a wise step to take, if you want to keep yourself out of any drama caused by an attention seeker. "Hey are you looking at me?! Where do you look at?!!!" blablabla...dramadramadrama....thats all it gets used for.  Just look at this recently created thread about "privacy protection prims" and you see what I mean.

And as I say to people how care about "look-at": Its none of your business and now, go wear an alphalayer for your whole body.

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having hosted at a few clubs with contest I try to run a fair one. One way I have weeded out alts... If I even suspect someone has dropped in an alt or FEW I compare the profiles. What I have found is that MANY hop club to club with trheir alts to rig the contests in their favor. Sooooo, what many fail to do is HIDE their groups. I cannot tell you how many times I have compared profiles on suspected alts and seen the EXACT same groups listed  and in many cases in the same order too,.

When I am sure I have a guilty party I take it a step further.. ..... I'll IM each and just say hello, thanks for coming etc and se if or how long it takes for each of them to reply.Then I start removing them from the board.Now I have recieved a few IMing me back THEN  after thy see they are no longer on and demanding to know why and to be put back up. I just tell them I am well aware of their alts amd removed them so as to make the contest FAIR to our REGULAR VIPS. In almost every casthe alts start TPing out..... LOL

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ryo: i know what you mean & understand xD i just used for that time. believe me i agree with specially the egomaniacs that say "you were checking me out babe" uh.. i scope the room was just last person i looked at..

harleiquinn: is almost funny when all have same last names & that person or one of last name alts always win.  not funny more sad. not just about me! i go for fun and trivias but friends i meet get cheat and this is wrong :( 

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Syo Emerald wrote:


Rhys Goode wrote:

So, if it is not perfect, it sucks?  

Coping with the world  is one long process of dealing with imperfect information as best you can.  In RL and SL both.  For me, having some information about who is looking at me is useful, even if it is not perfect.

Yes, it sucks. Not because its not perfect, but because its absolutly useless. This feature tells you not really what someone is looking at, not what they are really looking at. And people can turn it off, so others won't get to see anything from this half-correct information. Which if of course a wise step to take, if you want to keep yourself out of any drama caused by an attention seeker. "Hey are you looking at me?! Where do you look at?!!!" blablabla...dramadramadrama....thats all it gets used for.  Just look at this recently created thread about "privacy protection prims" and you see what I mean.

And as I say to people how care about "look-at": Its none of your business and now, go wear an alphalayer for your whole body.

Actually there is a color code that can tell you accurately if someone is looking at you deliberately.  if someone is deliberately looking at you by using alt+zoom, the cross hairs turn pink or violet.  If they are gray it means they aren't deliberately focusing on you, you just happen to be in their line of sight.  Gray also is the color of cross hairs when you say something in local chat, it doesn't mean they are looking at you though.  Everyone's cross hairs focus on you, unless they locked their focus on some one or something else.  Yellow cross hairs mean the person is looking at you in mouselook.

There are other colors that mean different things.  Here is a link with a chart of all the colors and what they mean.

That said, using look at is just a recipe for drama.  If you don't want people looking at you then don't go where they can look at you. Everyone is free to look where they please.  

Using look at is helpful when someone is trying to get you to look at one of several things close together, say a particular sales prim on a wall of them,  Just get them to too alt+zoom on the specific one and look for their pink crosshairs

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Club contests have always been fixed.

Some try things like 'must be there at close of voting for vote to count'...

But its not worth the drama. If you are going to a place for the contest, you're there for the wrong reason - go there to enjoy yourself. Don't even enter the contest - let that be somebody else's drama.

 

 

 

 

 Ya, I remember I went to a show and they had contest... only a few people actually dressed in what was required, I happened to come like I was so someone said enter.. I did. (I dont usually) So I got 2 votes but the one who won was friend of club owner who was not as cool as I was..( lol )  this is why I dont bother. I am not popular and I dont got friends I would ask to cheat for me. Nor a bunch of alts So. I got 3rd place. I dont even bother mostly....  They are stupid unless you got lots of alts and or friends the only contest there is is how many friend you got or alts.

 

 

 

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Cerise Sorbet wrote:

the show look at page also explains why the pink crosshair is not a reliable indication of where a person is actually looking.

I turned this off bcause I was tired of my then BF (now ex)  always perving women.  Its more trouble in social situations then its worth. But priceless if you want someone to focus on an item you are and for building to help others.

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We're probably all familiar with people who IM us to vote for them, in retuen for them voting for you.  But at one club recently someone kept IM-ing demanding I vote for them!  Even after I pointed out that I wasn't in the contest and the board was locked, so I couldn't enter, I was still getting "why U not vote me?" sort of thing!

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Many here have said just accept it. I disagree. If a club manager is sloppy and unprofessional enough not to take steps when they see cheaters (and it's generally pretty obvious), they are likely that way in other aspects of the club as well. Find a better club. There are some basic steps that can be taken. Closing contest entry 30 mins-1 hour before voting and requiring both entrants and voters to be there at vote close helps a lot. group locking the contest also helps. Finally, an astute club owner will boot and ban people they see cheating. I've seen votes be stopped, people booted and then the votes restarted. If you're a club owner and are going to run contests, do it right or don't do it at all.

That said, choosing clubs by contest is probably not the best way to find one you'll have fun at. Pick ones that have people you like or a DJ who runs music you like or whatever. Worrying about earning L's from contests kind of takes some of the fun out of things. If you really need L's and can't afford to buy any, learn to DJ or build or script or hire on as a clothing model at a clothing store and earn them that way.

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crim mip: sorry for late reply! was really small club with dj's girlfriend same last name alt show when she poofs. very shady. my favorite is nice guarded club with 1-2 "bouncer" people to keep watch. but open time moved on four hours D: do you know of other place? also only sad for friends i have lots lindens ;)

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As a long time club owner and club owner mentor here are some insights:

Linden Labs has not direct stance on contests in Second Life unless they involve gambling and even thing it is minimal. However club or location owners will try for the benefit of everyone try to take steps to make contests as fair as they possablity can within the ToS. One such example of a program that did work to a point was RedZone. This program for those not aware worked well for gaining the information on if someone was using multipale accounts from the same IP to cause greif or rig contests. However the program was a violation of Linden Labs ToS on collection of information. There are acutally only so many things venue owners can do to promote "fair play" of contests. Centianly not having contests all together is an option for any location and some of those location are extreamly successful. What is not seen directy to residents which they take to be a riged contest is the level of tools creators have attempted to build into contest boards and anti-bot systems.

As it was pointed out some contests have an appearance of being rigged. Certanily a location that only has "staff" winning the contest weather the "staff" is working or just in the club as a guest is another factor, stands out to anyone that frequents a location. There are tools at play which do appear as a "rigging" the contest but are actually ment to help the staff of locations. As a great example some contest boards have a built in sensor which will scan a range around the board reading and comparing the nemes of the residnets to what are entered into the contest. Should there be someone in the contest who is not within the scan range the board will automaticly remove that person from the contest. This brings up  a point of contention if the person "crashes" and is not able to return soon enough to rejoin the contest and it has now gone to a voting stage. The first thought by human nature has is "I was here the whole time crashed once and now I just wasted all that time." It leaves a bad taste for the location to some people. However again once RULES or contest terms are posted there are few debates. Additionally active staff member are on the look out for if that is a case and do their best to promote a fair play but waiting to start voting.

The greatest challenge facing contest in Second Life is multiple accounts or "group" voting. Sadly there is not way to really avoid with complete accuracy "group" voting or what is called vote stacking with any tools venue owners or contest board creators have to work with. Now Multi-account or commonly called "ALT VOTING" is a different attack. Some location will referance IP number searches for those in their location. At first glance this sounds like a very accurent appoarch however it is not. IP checking does not allow for the fairness of multipale computers connected to the same router or in some cases connected to a server. In this case the IP number of several residents will show to be the same as only the main connection point is being read. Also, IP Checking does bring up points of privacy. Again refering back to the REDZONE system. It is in cases like that that Linden Labs does have ToS policies in place.

What truely makes contests "fair play" a challenge and in many ways a good thing to keep up with is the creativity factor Second Life offers. In many ways finding the "loop poles" in contests and the tools employed keeps a constent progression of how to improve the contest experiece in Second Life. Those people looking to game the contest will always look for a new way to do it while venue owners and creators look for ways combat and level the playing field to achive a perfect "fair play." The drive is much the same as the drive in the real world to improve a product, process, action, idea, or anything else. It promote thinking, adapting, and growing.

The end to all of this for "just let cheaters win contests." There are very few venue owners who look at contests and try to fix them for the location or a staff member to win. Most are caught in the knife edge point balancing how do we get traffic while not over spending to pay residents to visit our location. Fewer then 5% of clubs on the grid are actually making money by providing contests or even being open. With close to 8200 club or venue location active at any time of the year and at times the resident traffic at best around 58,000 avatars loged on the grid at a time contest just become another way for a location to even get noticed. So will cheaters of a contest win...yes from time to time they will however the bulk of location owners do a valent effert or promoting fair play in contests. Ultimatly it comes down to each persons since of integrity and honesty. If someone is out just to get the money, they will find a way. I point out one last factor to think of, a location that does say a contest with $500L as a prize. Maybe it is one winner, a three way split, or even split by contest vote count. The winners are recieving around $0.16 to about $2.00 in US currency. This is the same amount of money a person walks pass when not picking up each penny they will walk pass in a shopping center or while going down the side walk. It is the priciple of 'fair play" everyone is trying to achive not the money factor. If you really need $0.16 USD from an Second Life Contest and you have to bring on several alts to get it. You are not thinking about all the work you spent when all you had to do was pick up a few pennies.

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