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KatTruewalker

Loss of No Copy Items due to landlord repossessing land

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KatTruewalker wrote:

The point was... those virtual goods had value and they were the property of the young man who lost them, the company tried to argue that as they were virtual, they remained the property of Runescape.  The court determined otherwise.

 

My point being that the goods lost belong to me and removal of those goods without my consent may be deemed as theft.  I think this is very pertinent given that people invest a great deal of hard earned money into virtual goods, don't you?

 

There is one flaw with your argument, really, and it is the flaw LL will most likely stand behind. Those items were not "removed" without your consent. You agreed they would be returned to you(which is what the landlord did, returned them to you) should you renege on your agreement as per the covenant you agreed to(as well as the TOS, but we'll deal with the rental contract first). While a landlord in rl cannot "keep" your items, they CAN lock you out and hold those items, after a specified amount of time, until you either pay or they legally evict you. They do have every right to do that, in most places(I realize this does not apply everywhere, but it does apply to many places). But, that's really not here nor there with your case. In this case, your landlord did NOT keep your items. The landlord did not hold them hostage until you pay, etc.. The landlord did everything as they should according to the contract you agreed to. You broke the contract, not the landlord. So you should first, and foremost, be angry with yourself. Not logging in more than  once a week, is no excuse. I know how that goes and I often have times I need to do the same. I am STILL obligated to pay what I owe, when I owe it, according to whatever contract I may have agreed to. That's my responsibility as a tenant. It is not the landlord's job to make certain you keep up your end of the deal. It's absurd to even suggest let alone actually believe, they should.

However your landlord has come on now and cleared up that they waited DAYS for you, after rent was due, to do something about it. That was ample time, in my opinion. Many landlords would not allow that much time, much less be kind about it. The fact that you don't get your messages sent to your email, despite the option being available to all residents in sl, is also, not the landlord's fault. You could have seen the messages sent, if you'd check that one little box(which, incidentally is also quite helpful when it comes to the message cap we allhave, though unrelated, it's a nice feature many, if not most, residents use).

Your real beef is(rather, should be) with not only yourself for causing this mess, but the system for not returning no copy items, if they are indeed actually gone. Lately the inventory serves have been having a real rough time, lots of maintainence. It is possible the items just have not come back to your inventory yet. it's also possible they were, as most put it "eaten" by the system, which can happen to no copy items. This is NOT the landlord's doing. You should not be angry at the landlord for giving you even more of a chance than most would to keep your end of a deal. You should not be angry at the landlord for the glitches the sl servers and platform may have. That is misguided anger, at best, at worst, it will make you someone no one wants to rent to. All of the responsibility here, with regard to your problem, except for the possible disappearance of no-copy items, sits squarely on your shoulders. You were given ample warning. I've actually rented from Aztek before myself, and I know the system sends you warnings BEFORE your rent is due-WELL in advance. You also get warnings after it's due. It's not the landlord, or sl, or ll, that is respnosible for you making certain you don't shirk your responsibilities.

LL may be able to recover your lost items, if they are really lost. They also, may say they are not able to. If that is the case, be even angrier with yourself for causing a situation to arise wherein those items COULD be lost. Because you wouldn't be in this position otherwise. Perhaps a hard lesson learned, but a lesson nonetheless. This is a 100% preventable problem that you caused for your own self. No one made it happen, but you.

As an aside, the landlord has NO idea that you have "no copy" items out. They have no need to know that, and not even any way of knowing that. Those are your items, not theirs, so only you can tell that.(unless they were to go around, on your land, inspecting everything, which seems even more absurd than expecting them to let you continue to use the land without paying for it).

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KatTruewalker wrote:

You were offline when i sent the original im and I have yet to read your advice on clearing cache etc. I am unable to reply or read these messages, unless I am actually logged in to SL.

 However the items are definitely not in my inventory.....

Hmm, so, you logged into SL, looked in inventory, and did not see the missing items...correct? 

But, since then, you haven't been inworld?   I'd recommend logging into SL at the soonest possible opportunity, look at your Lost and Found, and if your missing items are not there, follow Aztek's helpful advice and clear cache.  That very often solves the issue of missing items. 

Then if you still don't have your items, file a ticket. 

Here's the clearing cache instructions, if you need them: 

http://wiki.phoenixviewer.com/fs_cache_clear

 

(If you're not on Firestorm, don't worry that is says "Firestorm and/or Phoenix", the technincal path is the same regardless of the viewer)

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Yes, you're absolutely right about the little check box, but I think you misinterpreted my original question.

Which was :-

'Iwant to know what recourse, other than legal action, I can take for the return of my no copy items which were deleted or taken when the landlord repossessed the land I was renting.'

The items disappeared as a consequence of the landlord repossessing the land, I have no quibble about my rent being 3 days late, or his right to return said items, what I want to know is how I get them back.  As I mentioned previously, I'm perfectly happy to pay the money owed, I've paid rent well in advance before.  What I am not happy about is those items disappearing and having to accept the loss of 10k L, which equates to quite a few GBP.

I am not prepared to sit here and accept that it's a gltich and they're gone for good, I certainly wouldn't accept that in real life.  Why should virtual items that I paid for, be any different?

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Thank you, Celestiall, I'll try that as soon as possible, I looked at the page for filing a ticket but the preset options didn't seem to cater for items that had disappeared, maybe I'm looking in the wrong place.

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KatTruewalker wrote:

The point was... those virtual goods had value and they were the property of the young man who lost them, the company tried to argue that as they were virtual, they remained the property of Runescape.  The court determined otherwise.

 

My point being that the goods lost belong to me and removal of those goods without my consent may be deemed as theft.  I think this is very pertinent given that people invest a great deal of hard earned money into virtual goods, don't you?

 

If I am getting this right, Runescape was not a defendant in this case.

The case went to the Supreme Court because one of the boys appealed his conviction.

The boy's Defense tried to argue:

The key arguments against the incident being defined as ‘theft’ considered by the court they were as follows:

  1. Virtual items are not goods but an ‘illusion’ of goods made up of bits & bytes i.e. they are data
  2. Virtual items are Information
  3. The point of the game is to take objects from each other
  4. The virtual items are and remain the property of the publisher of the game not the victim or the defendant - hence they could not have been stolen     (link)

 

But note very carefuly this statement in the Courts ruling:

"-the rules of RuneScape do not cover obtaining objects in the manner that occurred in this case: the objects were taken from the victim outside the context of the game itself."  (my emphasis)  (link)

Your loss occurred WITHIN the context of the "game" itself.

 

eta:clarity

 

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KatTruewalker wrote:

Yes, you're absolutely right about the little check box, but I think you misinterpreted my original question.

Which was :-

'Iwant to know what recourse, other than legal action, I can take for the return of my no copy items which were deleted or taken when the landlord repossessed the land I was renting.'

The items disappeared as a consequence of the landlord repossessing the land, I have no quibble about my rent being 3 days late, or his right to return said items, what I want to know is how I get them back.  As I mentioned previously, I'm perfectly happy to pay the money owed, I've paid rent well in advance before.  What I am not happy about is those items disappearing and having to accept the loss of 10k L, which equates to quite a few GBP.

I am not prepared to sit here and accept that it's a gltich and they're gone for good, I certainly wouldn't accept that in real life.  Why should virtual items that I paid for, be any different?

It's a known "glitch" and has been for ages. But part of the reason it's a glitch, still, is because it's not consistant. It doesn't always happen to no copy items, it's just a possibility. It can't even always be reproduced.

I didn't misinterpret your question, I know what you were asking, I just commented on all of it and not part of it. Others already told you the recourse you have, as did part of my post. I'm not even sure you'd actually have a legal leg to stand on in the first place-since your actions caused the problem. So your only recourse, if you want to call it that, is to hope LL helps you via a support ticket, if the items are truly lost. They may, or may not. You should still also read the TOS again, however. Because by agreeing to it, you also agree that things happen in sl, at times(that would include a glitch) and LL is no more obligated to return those items should something go awry than anyone else would be. I know it's a particular of the TOS that many don't like, or agree with, but by saying "I agree" and continuing on enjoying sl, you already absolved them of responsibility. I always recommend to others that if there is something they feel that strongly against in a TOS, they shouldn't agree to it.

You put yourself into this position, not the landlord, not LL and not the system. You created the situation where a glitch *could possibly happen.

One of the beauties of these forums is that when you post, others are likely to respond to all that you say, not just the parts you want them to comment on. You did still call your landlord unscrupulous and try to paint the landlord in a bad light, which imo was not right in the least, and was dishonest. That sort of thing rubs people the wrong way, especially when the landlord is actually being quite kind to you. Perhaps I'm an odd duck for thinking that way, but I rather like being an odd duck.

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KatTruewalker wrote:

I am not prepared to sit here and accept that it's a gltich and they're gone for good, I certainly wouldn't accept that in real life.  Why should virtual items that I paid for, be any different?

Actually, in real life I believe things left on repossed property either get auctioned off by the land owner or dumped on the curb.

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:


KatTruewalker wrote:

I am not prepared to sit here and accept that it's a gltich and they're gone for good, I certainly wouldn't accept that in real life.  Why should virtual items that I paid for, be any different?

Actually, in real life I believe things left on repossed property either get auctioned off by the land owner or dumped on the curb.

That is pretty much how it works where I live.

 

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Honestly as an landlord myself I can't agree with your logic here.

 

You stopped paying rent; i mean once you stop paying any lease they have the right to reposess your items.

If you stop paying your morgage for your car or house;   they can repossess your home or car that's an acceptable term; you don't own the place or car until you pay off your morgage. The same applies to Second Life; if you stop paying your rent with an landlord they have the right to return your items if you don't remove them yourself.


You should of removed your items when you left; that way the landlord doesn't need to click the return button and you wouldn't of lost your no copy items.

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KatTruewalker wrote:

I will check my inventory very carefully, but I'm saddened that this sort of behaviour doesn't raise more outrage in the SL community, you're happy to spend hard earned real money and see it all disappear at the whim of an unscrupulous landlord?

 

It's that sort of attitude which is allowing developers to get away with these over restrictive and blatantly despotic eula's in the first place.  Yes, I know, I read it before I signed too.  It's really about time some of these were scrutinised more publicly by consumer associations and highlighted for their unfairness.

OMG REALLY? You are a child thinking this way.  Get a grip. You didn't spend your "hard earned money" and pay the rent and that is what caused it all to happen.  

In the meantime the landlord is supposed to not rent out the land again and lose money waiting for a deadbeat to show up to claim precious items?  If you couldn't pay the amount owed in time you should have contacted the landlord and made payment arrangements if he would work with you and if not, removed all you stuff from the land before your rent ran out.  More than likely you didn't lose a thing, as others have pointed out.  But if you did, it's all on you not the landlord. You have only yourself to blame.

Don't like it?  Buy some mainland and see if LL will allow you to stay on your land without paying.  Here's a clue: they won't.  Not only that, if you don't pay your account will be suspended so you can't even sign into SL until you do pay,  LL does not guarantee your inventory will be there when you are reinstated either so you could lose everything not just a few things. 

This is SL.  You don't need a house to survive.  You are not entitled to one if you don't pay for it. Under the circumstances you'd be  laughed out of court if you sued.

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This is another of the LEGION in SL who simply will NOT learn what coalesced objects are and how to find returned things. They will not even consider the possibility that all their returned stuff is in fact sitting in their Lost and Found -- after all, they glanced in there once and did not see it, so it's not there. 

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Kat, your items are in your Lost and Found folder if you take the time to go and look. Are you familiar with the icon for 'coalesced' items? That's what you're looking for. Do you really think you should have recourse when you didn't honor your end of the contract to pay the rent for your land? Your landlord didn't take or delete your items, they are in your inventory. Yes, sometimes no-copy items disappear into the ether -- but it's very uncommon in reality, and even if that did happen it's hardly your landlord's fault.

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Things might have changed since then but a few years ago I had a huge house filled with lots of expensive furniture and when the landlord returned my items, they didn't all get back to me. I dug through my inventory and coalesced items and did find a lot but I was still missing a good bit of furniture.

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

Don't like it?  Buy some mainland and see if LL will allow you to stay on your land without paying.  Here's a clue: they won't.  Not only that, if you don't pay your account will be suspended so you can't even sign into SL until you do pay,  LL does not guarantee your inventory will be there when you are reinstated either so you could lose everything not just a few things. 

Firstly, LL allows you thirty days before they take action on you for being delinquent.  I know this because, last month, for the first time ever, I realized I didn't have the money in my account to pay my tier fee and would be in arrears for over a week, at best.  At which point, I kind of panicked, called the concierge line and that's the information they gave me.

Secondly, I doubt that, even if I had been blocked, I would have lost any inventory.  I say this, because I know people with accounts that have been blocked for such things, for a few months at least, and they had no issue with unrecoverable inventory.  You might be thinking of someone that cancels their account and tries to get it back after a much longer period of time.... like say years.

...Dres

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you have seven days to pay your tier and then you are blocked from logging in. After that, you have no access to any lindens and must pay your delinquency via credit card or other form of outside payment. If you remain delinquent after 30 days, your region/land is reclaimed and your account remains blocked.

You can pay your delinquency 30, 60, 120, whatever days and your account will be restored, but your land will be gone. If it was a full region, it will have been shut off and any objects that were on there will have been lost. They are not returned.

An account is never truly deleted, but often the inventory is purged after a period of time.

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Gaz Dirval wrote:

you have seven days to pay your tier and then you are blocked from logging in.

I was told by concierge that I had thirty days before being blocked, which I'm rather more inclined to believe, since I went at least ten days before I deposited the money to cover my tier and was never blocked.

...Dres

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Gaz Dirval wrote:

you have seven days to pay your tier and then you are blocked from logging in.

I was told by concierge that I had thirty days before being blocked, which I'm rather more inclined to believe, since I went at least ten days before I deposited the money to cover my tier and was never blocked.

...Dres

I'm honestly not sure if they've changed how they handle things, but I know for a fact at one time it really was 7 days and then you'd be blocked from logging in. That's how it was in 2008-2010 at least. But they, of course, could have easily changed how they handle that now and not updated the info to reflect that. Who knows, it's LL, lol. I would never count on a 30 day allowance, even if someone at the lab told me that. By all intents and purposes, they have the right to block you after 7 days, even if they don't choose to do so, because it's the info they put out there.

In the end no matter what they will not guarantee all your stuff is ever truly safe from deletion/glitch/error/whatever someone might want to call it. That's one area the TOS is clear on. I too, doubt, inventory would just up and disappear if a block like that were to occur. But if it ever did, they've got their butts covered with that little bit in the TOS. So, there is always that possibility-even if remote.

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Tari Landar wrote:


Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Gaz Dirval wrote:

you have seven days to pay your tier and then you are blocked from logging in.

I was told by concierge that I had thirty days before being blocked, which I'm rather more inclined to believe, since I went at least ten days before I deposited the money to cover my tier and was never blocked.

...Dres

I'm honestly not sure if they've changed how they handle things, but I know for a fact at one time it really was 7 days and then you'd be blocked from logging in. That's how it was in 2008-2010 at least. But they, of course, could have easily changed how they handle that now and not updated the info to reflect that. Who knows, it's LL, lol. I would never count on a 30 day allowance, even if someone at the lab told me that. By all intents and purposes, they have the right to block you after 7 days, even if they don't choose to do so, because it's the info they put out there.

In the end no matter what they will not guarantee all your stuff is ever truly safe from deletion/glitch/error/whatever someone might want to call it. That's one area the TOS is clear on. I too, doubt, inventory would just up and disappear if a block like that were to occur. But if it ever did, they've got their butts covered with that little bit in the TOS. So, there is always that possibility-even if remote.

You could be right... perhaps it's the fact that I called and told them that I'd be paying it eventually which spared me the ban hammer, but that's not the way the person with whom I spoke made it sound.  Either way, three days is a very short period of time to be returning people's stuff, imho.  I'm not saying that the onus isn't on the renter, on which I truly believe it is.

...Dres

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I was one of those people that disappeared from SL suddenly, due to ill health, but I left behind my beautiful and much loved house and furniture. For a little while I'd paid my rent so if I didn't come in for a while I'd be covered. Sadly, this wasn't the case and I have only just returned. In my Lost and Found folder are 2 or 3 piles of boxes still to be opened. In my furniture folder are the odd bits and bobs of my house for eg the front door and another door and various little objects like pictures etc. 

It has never once crossed my mind to go chasing my old Landlord because my house and grounds are a jumble in my inventory. Sometimes you have to stop, take a deep breath and spend as long as it takes going through your inventory looking for your items, or in the search box if your items had a title put that in. 

In all my time in SL, with all the Landlords I've dealt with I've never met one who has done what you think yours has. Hopefully you'll find your items. If you open a jumble of boxes the last time I had to do that they rezzed in the same position they were in on the land, which can be a bit of a pain chasing around for them,

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Tari Landar wrote:


Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Gaz Dirval wrote:

you have seven days to pay your tier and then you are blocked from logging in.

I was told by concierge that I had thirty days before being blocked, which I'm rather more inclined to believe, since I went at least ten days before I deposited the money to cover my tier and was never blocked.

...Dres

I'm honestly not sure if they've changed how they handle things, but I know for a fact at one time it really was 7 days and then you'd be blocked from logging in. That's how it was in 2008-2010 at least. But they, of course, could have easily changed how they handle that now and not updated the info to reflect that. Who knows, it's LL, lol. I would never count on a 30 day allowance, even if someone at the lab told me that. By all intents and purposes, they have the right to block you after 7 days, even if they don't choose to do so, because it's the info they put out there.

In the end no matter what they will not guarantee all your stuff is ever truly safe from deletion/glitch/error/whatever someone might want to call it. That's one area the TOS is clear on. I too, doubt, inventory would just up and disappear if a block like that were to occur. But if it ever did, they've got their butts covered with that little bit in the TOS. So, there is always that possibility-even if remote.

You could be right... perhaps it's the fact that I called and told them that I'd be paying it eventually which spared me the ban hammer, but that's not the way the person with whom I spoke made it sound.  Either way, three days is a very short period of time to be returning people's stuff, imho.  I'm not saying that the onus isn't on the renter, on which I truly believe it is.

...Dres

There is an official policy:

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Delinquency_policy

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Gaz Dirval wrote:

Then an exception was made for you.  It was 7 days as of end of last year anyway.

The revision history in the official policy (linked above) shows it was changed from Seven days to Thirty days January 27, 2012.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=Linden_Lab_Official:Delinquency_policy&diff=1162197&oldid=1142804

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If you're not prepared to accept that items can be lost due to technical glitches then I have two things to say;

1) You didn't read the TOS that you are automatically bound by as soon as you log in.

2) You need to stop buying no-copy things in SL.

Because there WILL be glitches and you WILL lose things. It happens to everyone. What everyone else does is file support tickets. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. If it doesn't, c'est la vie. 

Another thing you can try is contact the sellers of the items you lost and (politely) request re-delivery.

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Jazleen Raynier wrote:

I was one of those people that disappeared from SL suddenly, due to ill health, but I left behind my beautiful and much loved house and furniture. For a little while I'd paid my rent so if I didn't come in for a while I'd be covered. Sadly, this wasn't the case and I have only just returned. 

Hope you are Ok now Jaz

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Actually its not True, if a Land Lord, wants to be a Jerk, there is a way to delete items off a persons land legally I mean Destroy no Copy Items  for good.

Its called Admin > God Tools under this option the region owner, or anyone with Estate rights can perm delete anyones objects from the region not retuning them to a persons inventory.

Even if a persons items is retruned due to server issues items can be lost.

This is a reason in Second Life why when I played SL I would always avoid NO- Copy items from merchants, do this in the future incase you loose your items for this reason.

 

* As far as Law & TOS, the Laws would apply based on Sever Location of the actual servers, and or where the company is located, sure you could try to SUE Linden Lab, or other companies but you have to use Loop Holes in the TOS, and use things that were never clearly stated in the Terms OF Service of a online game.*

Take online gold sellers for example buying gold is illegal, but back aways I purchased gold for a game  and the GM reclaimed it because the goods came from an illegal source, I paid for Legal goods to be delivered to my account, so because I use a third party seller, or my Credit Card, I contact them get my money back every time within 30 days, these type of cases could be taken to a court.

Take for example the company said on their Terms & Conditions that my account could get banned for buying gold with real money, but didn't say my gold would get removed, so I used it as a loop-hole to reclaim my money when they refused to deliver my goods properly and legit as they promised.

The most another country could do as far as RuneScape anyways is ban players from playing it from their country  if the servers were located in the U.S there really isn't anything that can be done although I agree there should be laws with online MMO's which keep players accounts protected from illegal reclaim of items and hackers like Linden Lab for example lost items all the time, no inventory backup, Linden Lab should have a service where that player can reclaim any and all content, or have inventory restored when they need.

 

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