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Why is there so much homophobia in Gorean role play sims and what can we do about it?

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Ardvinna wrote:


Pussycat Catnap wrote:

I don't know much about the US American history. Only the facts I learned in school and what I've read so far. I also don't know how much the flag of the Confederates can emotionally affect someone, but...

in
human history
, as far as it is known, the Nazi-regime caused the most destruction. During the II WW about 50 million people died.

Estimates of the Native population before the genocide run about 300 million across the two continents, with about 30 million in the territory of the USA, and maybe 5-10 million in the Carribean. At the end of the 'armed conflict' side of the genocide (1900, though the last military battle of the Indian wars in the USA was in 1917 when a previously unfound tribe was attacked by the US Calvary) the US had about 120,000 people Native left alive. Maybe 10-30 million left across the two continents, most of them South of the USA.

- There's your stark numeric reduction. But its over a period of time that also includes for births and attempts by these populations to come back or resist. The actual number slaughtered is much greater.

 

There are no penalties for glamorizing the Native Genocide. In fact our major NFL teams still promote it, and as children it used to be a common boys game to play 'cowboys and indians'.

Its considered a point of pride in much of the USA, 'how the west was won'. And in other countries in the Americas, things are even less pleasant. Forced sterilization ended in the USA in the 1970s, but its still ongoing in countries like Peru.

And then you have slavery... which has like numbers.

 The Conferderate Flag IS the flag of slavery. Its a flag made to defend slavery. Its come on the tail end of legal slavery - but it was formed for the purpose of defending slavery. The culture that defined and defended slavery in fundamentally linked to the one that waged the Native Genocide. This carries through mostly after the fact in what organizations now use that flag and what they hold out as standing for when they do so.

The Native Genocide itself was carried out by Europeans in general, and Americans in particular in the USA (one of the sparks of the US Revolution was the British signing a treaty with Native groups on the western frontier and pulling their troops off the frontier, putting them into the homes of 'suspect' colonials in coastal cities so that Colonists on the frontier would have no one to run to if they tried to erect "settlements" in native lands. At the time of the Revolution, the European power in place in the area was rethinking its way of relating to the 'savages', so you can't hold "Europeans" to task, mostly, after that point).

So one could say the 'flag' of it is the US Flag - but this would be like holding all Germans, including moderns, accountable for the Nazis - which would itself be a 'racist' judgment against Germans (who are near unique in reconciling with their past: modern Germans are to be admired).

The Nazis were a subset, and people who identify with their ideology still promote their icons. Much the same with the Confederate Flag; today its the symbol of what remains of organized hate groups. Here in the USA, quite often if you see one of these symbols, somewhere in the same set of people are folks carrying the other. Often the same person will have a 'nazi coffee mug' and 'dixie teddy bear' in hand... matching bumper stickers, or etc...

 

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That's a big side-track.

People like to lob onto my sidetracks because I challenge their biases or assumptions in my analogies and they don't like that. I'm a pattern thinker though - I need analogies to process a thought, so I compare and contrast all the time. I can see the forest but often miss that there are even trees around me.

 

Point of my example being: LLs doesn't act to remove hate groups from SL. Some of them persist for quite some time.

We might wish they did. They might even do so sometimes. But their track record on this is not as good as it could be.

 

One can easily argue the entire concept of Gor is a hate group against women... the entire 'sexy nake barbarian' fantasy concept does not need to have such an anti-woman bias at all. There's not need to even have a 'slavery' angle to still hold up all the 'titilating adventure fantasy'.

These concepts need not be linked. That they are, is the action of a disorganized misogynist hate-group.

The anti-LGBT bias is just a side effect of that, not itself an core part of the fantasy. But the fantasy attracts people of like mind (if you hold up one major prejudice, chances are you have an assortment of others as well, especially if thematically linked : disdain for multiple races, or disdain for multiple gender issues, or disdain for multiple religions, nationalities, etc...).

 

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Estimates of the Native population before the genocide run about 300 million across the two continents, with about 30 million in the territory of the USA, and maybe 5-10 million in the Carribean. At the end of the 'armed conflict' side of the genocide (1900, though the last military battle of the Indian wars in the USA was in 1917 when a previously unfound tribe was attacked by the US Calvary) the US had about 120,000 people Native left alive. Maybe 10-30 million left across the two continents, most of them South of the USA.

Where did you get these numbers? The pre-invasion estimates seem incredibly high - South America only had a population of 385 million in 2011 and it includes some of the largest cities in the world.

And what is your criteria for considering someone Native today? There has been extensive interbreeding all through the Americas, especially South and Central America. You've mentioned that you're half Asian and half Native American  - do you still count?

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Thankfully so many rampant homophobes have self-selected themselves into the Gorian world, leaving the rest of SL relatively open and accepting. If you really want to be dominated without homophobia, try gambling sims: gambling stacks the odds against your coming out on top.

 

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homosexual sex is not discussed in the books for what ever reason , i personally plaid aroud with flirting with the other girls, go to mix up the rp and it just seems its not culurarly a gorean thing , you will find alof of " typist' have a diffent avi sex then they are but thats about as close as you are going to get ,

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It's very simple, There is very little, if anything written in the books of John Norman about gor that even mentioned gay in gor, it was not even mentioned when speaking about panther tribes and panther tribes are all woman or female tribes.
Therefore assumed that there were no gay or lesbians in gor.
In a society such as gorean, gay and lesbian would be considered extremely undesirable, it would deeply offend the honor of many warriors and free woman, therefore, must be destroyed to remove this stain  on the honor on men and woman.
Also, you must remember, you cannot make anyone accept something they do not and will not accept, even in a virtual world.
In a male dominated society such as gor, gay and lesbians would find themselves very much unwelcome and unwanted,

 

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1 hour ago, Aztecaa said:

In a male dominated society such as gor, gay and lesbians would find themselves very much unwelcome and unwanted,

first a big congrats with restarting a dead thread ..

second...double congrats for the limited view on Gor, there are thousends of gays playing Gor RP in SL.

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On 4/11/2014 at 12:21 PM, Pussycat Catnap said:

 


Ardvinna wrote:

 

 

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

 

 

I don't know much about the US American history. Only the facts I learned in school and what I've read so far. I also don't know how much the flag of the Confederates can emotionally affect someone, but...

 

in
human history
, as far as it is known, the Nazi-regime caused the most destruction. During the II WW about 50 million people died.

Estimates of the Native population before the genocide run about 300 million across the two continents, with about 30 million in the territory of the USA, and maybe 5-10 million in the Carribean. At the end of the 'armed conflict' side of the genocide (1900, though the last military battle of the Indian wars in the USA was in 1917 when a previously unfound tribe was attacked by the US Calvary) the US had about 120,000 people Native left alive. Maybe 10-30 million left across the two continents, most of them South of the USA.

- There's your stark numeric reduction. But its over a period of time that also includes for births and attempts by these populations to come back or resist. The actual number slaughtered is much greater.

 

There are no penalties for glamorizing the Native Genocide. In fact our major NFL teams still promote it, and as children it used to be a common boys game to play 'cowboys and indians'.

Its considered a point of pride in much of the USA, 'how the west was won'. And in other countries in the Americas, things are even less pleasant. Forced sterilization ended in the USA in the 1970s, but its still ongoing in countries like Peru.

And then you have slavery... which has like numbers.

 The Conferderate Flag IS the flag of slavery. Its a flag made to defend slavery. Its come on the tail end of legal slavery - but it was formed for the purpose of defending slavery. The culture that defined and defended slavery in fundamentally linked to the one that waged the Native Genocide. This carries through mostly after the fact in what organizations now use that flag and what they hold out as standing for when they do so.

The Native Genocide itself was carried out by Europeans in general, and Americans in particular in the USA (one of the sparks of the US Revolution was the British signing a treaty with Native groups on the western frontier and pulling their troops off the frontier, putting them into the homes of 'suspect' colonials in coastal cities so that Colonists on the frontier would have no one to run to if they tried to erect "settlements" in native lands. At the time of the Revolution, the European power in place in the area was rethinking its way of relating to the 'savages', so you can't hold "Europeans" to task, mostly, after that point).

So one could say the 'flag' of it is the US Flag - but this would be like holding all Germans, including moderns, accountable for the Nazis - which would itself be a 'racist' judgment against Germans (who are near unique in reconciling with their past: modern Germans are to be admired).

The Nazis were a subset, and people who identify with their ideology still promote their icons. Much the same with the Confederate Flag; today its the symbol of what remains of organized hate groups. Here in the USA, quite often if you see one of these symbols, somewhere in the same set of people are folks carrying the other. Often the same person will have a 'nazi coffee mug' and 'dixie teddy bear' in hand... matching bumper stickers, or etc...

 

the united states was formed as a slave holding country the stars and stripes was a flag of slavery annnnd native american genocide was conducted under that flag.

it might interest you to know that were more than one company of native americans that fought for the confederates.

of course native americans had slaves too so maybe they joined the confederates to preserve their right to own slaves?

Edited by Phorumities
found a spelling mistake, there's probably more

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1 hour ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

image.png.677656824df4d8428cda2cbf3571eff9.png

 

Obviously a troll post just to revive a thread that touches on a controversial topic.

Well hats off to Aztecaa then, for the necro. I needed a laugh, and seeing the absolute idiocy of the thread title got me laughing.

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21 hours ago, Phorumities said:

the united states was formed as a slave holding country the stars and stripes was a flag of slavery annnnd native american genocide was conducted under that flag.

it might interest you to know that were more than one company of native americans that fought for the confederates.

of course native americans had slaves too so maybe they joined the confederates to preserve their right to own slaves?

The more you post, the more convinced I become that the water under the Tallahatchee Bridge wasn't as deep as everyone thought.

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15 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

The more you post, the more convinced I become that the water under the Tallahatchee Bridge wasn't as deep as everyone thought.

Actually (s)he's right on this one, some members of the southern tribes lived in manorhouses and were very happy to adopt the European ways... but I cannot see how it's related to the topic...

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On 7/2/2018 at 3:14 AM, Aztecaa said:

There is very little, if anything written in the books of John Norman about gor that even mentioned gay in gor, it was not even mentioned when speaking about panther tribes and panther tribes are all woman or female tribes.

There's nothing at all in Shakespeare's "The Tempest" about flying saucers and robots, but that didn't stop creative people from updating it to make "Forbidden Planet" in which Morbius (Prospero) dies at the hands of his own id. That departure from the original plot hasn't stopped anyone from recognizing the genesis of the story.

What a book means is as much determined by the reader as the author. John Norman is dead and his readers were rewriting long before that happened. They will make whatever they wish of his books. He gave them a pretty low bar to step over.

I will also point out, as Alwin has, that the premise of the OP is incorrect and so your answer is as mythical as the question.

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On 7/3/2018 at 6:17 AM, Fionalein said:

Actually (s)he's right on this one, some members of the southern tribes lived in manorhouses and were very happy to adopt the European ways... but I cannot see how it's related to the topic...

It seems that you are saying that whites brought the concept of slavery to America. Considering all your other posts I've read, this fundamental misunderstanding of history doesn't surprise me in the slightest

Unless I'm mistaken, almost all the tribes owned slaves. And... unless I'm mistaken, almost every race, tribe or ethnic group has owned slaves at one time or another.

In fact, some still do. I'd offer examples but I'd probably be accused of racism.

*shrugs*

Edited by Phorumities
added lines

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On 4/11/2014 at 1:49 PM, Theresa Tennyson said:

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

 

Estimates of the Native population before the genocide run about 300 million across the two continents, with about 30 million in the territory of the USA, and maybe 5-10 million in the Carribean. At the end of the 'armed conflict' side of the genocide (1900, though the last military battle of the Indian wars in the USA was in 1917 when a previously unfound tribe was attacked by the US Calvary) the US had about 120,000 people Native left alive. Maybe 10-30 million left across the two continents, most of them South of the USA.

 

Where did you get these numbers? The pre-invasion estimates seem incredibly high - South America only had a population of 385 million in 2011 and it includes some of the largest cities in the world.

And what is your criteria for considering someone Native today? There has been extensive interbreeding all through the Americas, especially South and Central America. You've mentioned that you're half Asian and half Native American  - do you still count?

Some people only claim an ethnic heritage to give themselves moral superiority when denouncing others.

It's obvious that Miss Catnip sees the entire course of human history as evil whites oppressing the rest of the world.

That interpretation of history is as simple as it is useless, but it's very popular none the less.

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1 hour ago, Phorumities said:

Some people only claim an ethnic heritage to give themselves moral superiority when denouncing others.

Buy yourself a mirror, will you ;)? ("Caucasian" is an ethnicity too, even if no one outside weirdoland calls it that way)

Edited by Fionalein
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1 minute ago, Fionalein said:

Buy yourself a mirror, will you ;)? ("Caucasian" is an ethnicity too, even if no one outside weirdoland calls it that way)

Everyone can lay claim to an ethnicity. 

Caucasian is one of the traditional racial divisions of mankind.

It always amuses me that people can talk endlessly about breeds of dogs, cats, horses, etc etc etc, but recoil in horror at the thought that humans can be similarly categorized.

 

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I can only compare roleplay to how one would set up a play in the real world. The theater owner decides upon a play, and hire a director whose vision is approved by the owner. They then start hiring actors. Upon rehearsal, one actor or actress start to ignore instructions from the director. He/she arguments that this "could have" happened even if not in script. It is also other theaters who performed the play different, so he/she demands the right to play the role as it was done in that other theater.

The director complain to the owner who fire the actor and has him removed. Was the theater owner wrong to do so?

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2 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

I can only compare roleplay to how one would set up a play in the real world. The theater owner decides upon a play, and hire a director whose vision is approved by the owner. They then start hiring actors. Upon rehearsal, one actor or actress start to ignore instructions from the director. He/she arguments that this "could have" happened even if not in script. It is also other theaters who performed the play different, so he/she demands the right to play the role as it was done in that other theater.

The director complain to the owner who fire the actor and has him removed. Was the theater owner wrong to do so?

If people were hired to roleplay in Second Life that would be an excellent metaphor...

Now what happens if, instead of one unreasonable actor, it was one unreasonable director? The word would start getting out about it and soon actors wouldn't audition there. Audiences would note that there weren't any good actors and they'd say, "Why should I pay to see this?" And eventually you have an empty theatre but the "vision" would be preserved...

So, is a vision a vision if it isn't seen?

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39 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

If people were hired to roleplay in Second Life that would be an excellent metaphor...

Now what happens if, instead of one unreasonable actor, it was one unreasonable director? The word would start getting out about it and soon actors wouldn't audition there. Audiences would note that there weren't any good actors and they'd say, "Why should I pay to see this?" And eventually you have an empty theatre but the "vision" would be preserved...

So, is a vision a vision if it isn't seen?

Isn't that what happens when a RP sim is empty and then closes down? An unreasonable director?

Re-enactment? The land/building and the scenery is owned or rented by a group or a person, and the setup is can be very precise, and the ones that come there must sign up that they follow the rules. I don't know much about this, but it sounds a bit like SL in RL

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On 1/7/2014 at 1:43 PM, Senobia Xenga said:

I think it has to do with Gor putting so much emphasis on being "Manly Men". Sweaty, chest thumping, grunting piles of testosterone hellbent on raping and pillaging. Anything less is, well - unacceptable or female, which are pretty much synonymous in Gor.

Right just because women are welcomed  in Gor, do not assume they are treated any better. My question would be why do you even want to be in the environment?

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15 minutes ago, Talligurl said:

Right just because women are welcomed  in Gor, do not assume they are treated any better. My question would be why do you even want to be in the environment?

It's really not our business.

Some of them want to use you
Some of them want to get used by you
Some of them want to abuse you
Some of them want to be abused

Sweet dreams are made of this
Who am I to disagree?
I traveled the world and the seven seas
Everybody's looking for something

SL is a safe place to test out things. Who would risk slave play in RL?

 

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12 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

It's really not our business.

No of course not, and I would never tell anyone they shouldn't do anything they enjoy in SL, I would only ask why to help my understanding.

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