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Perrin Avindar

Why is there so much homophobia in Gorean role play sims and what can we do about it?

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Q1: Why is there so much homophobia in Gorean RP?

I'm going to go with the general flow of answers provided up until this point: all those macho-macho men have it in their itty bitty heads that men are the bees knees, entitled to receive two grilled cheese sandwiches when they ask for one and served on a platter of freshly shaved va-jay-jays. Homophobia by itself shouldn't be a threat, but feminine behaviors in men would be a straight up mockery of everything the iconic Gor man stands for. An effeminate male is to the common Gor man as an adulterous stripping nun is to a good, God-fearing Catholic--and let's be frank, if the dude wasn't a slave before he started being effeminate, in characterly in any realistic setting he'd be enslaved on those grounds alone. His shlong is pretty much wasted at that point, and it may as well be castrated so he can embrace the womanly lifestyle he has chosen thus far. 


So yes, I can imagine to those BTB individuals, your presence in their sim didn't fit their sim standards--and perhaps, not even their life standards. A shame. I think the idea of a stereotypical effeminate gay male slave would be a HILARIOUS one, especially if he were bought out by a chick or a straight dude.

 

Q2: What can we do about it?

Well. 

What makes the internet so wonderous and frightening at the same time is that it allows for isolated pockets of individuals to collect and share the same ideas, and homophobia is just one of the many topics that people like to barnacle up on. You could pass on a few digital pamphlets to your homophobic Gorean 'buddies' on how gays aren't responsible for AIDS and that there isn't a secret gay agenda, but it's questionable whether or not they'll take the time to read it, since they've already formed strong opinions over the subject.

Most agendas to tackle homophobia start with school kids, in much the same way I imagine that racism and other such social issues are tackled. Grown adults are stubborn creatures and tend to only come around after they've had POSITIVE experiences with members of the gay community.

When these BTB people feel threatened by your presence on their sim, then there's no room for a positive experience to be formed. Your presence is invasive and will continue to be so until it is removed. The best thing you can do is to exit the sim on your own accord, let the opposite side explain why they are upset, and then in a calm and collected manner, acknowledge that their opinion / view is valued even if only because it's their own, and that you'll respect it--and then, politely offer to explain your own persepctive. If they don't want to listen, that's cool. If they do--well, that's where change can happen, because that's when they're potentially going to be open minded.

 

 

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If you had actually read any of the books, you'd have noticed there is not a single mention of homosexual behaviour in them.

So a silky boy would be a lust object for some female owner, NOT a male owner. A male owner would throw that boy in chains and put them in a mine or on the oars of a ship, or if he's lucky have him pull a plow with the bosk.

Yes, there is "gay gor" but that's decidedly NOT BTB Gor. If you want to be a male slave in true Gorean roleplay, expect to be treated harshly, with great disdain and disregard for your comforts and wishes.

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Certainly people can't display homophobic or racist signs in SL , or wear them , or harass people  because of their sexual orientation or whatever,

then please explain the large number of overtly racist sims. Black supremacist groups and sims, black slave breeding places, etc. etc. abound and thrive, and have for years.

There's even a thriving underground of Nazi roleplay groups, though I'm not sure how accepted those are with LL (they might just regularly reform after being shut down once again).

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Incidentally.

In 1964, Lester Maddox (the 75th Governor of Georgia) claimed that he wasn't a racist, but that the restaurant he owned was PRIVATE PROPERTY and therefore he could do what he wished with it. According to laws protecting against public discrmination, he was WRONG. From Wikipedia:

Maddox became a martyr to segregationist advocates by leasing and then selling the restaurant to employees rather than agreeing to serve black customers. He claimed that the issue was not hostility to blacks but constitutional property rights. He even built a monument to "private property rights" near the restaurant. Maddox closed the Pickrick on August 13, and reopened the business on September 26 as the Lester Maddox Cafeteria, where he pledged to serve only "acceptable" Georgians. During a trial for contempt of court on September 29, Maddox argued against the charges because he was no longer offering service to out-of-state travelers or integrationists. On February 5, 1965 a federal court ruled that Maddox was in contempt of court for failing to obey the injunction and assigned fines of two hundred dollars a day for failing to serve African Americans. Maddox ultimately closed his restaurant on February 7, 1965 rather than integrate it; he claimed that President Lyndon Johnson and communists put him out of business.

Last year the New Mexico Supreme Court affirmed a decision to sue a female photographer for refusing to photopraph a same-sex commitment ceremony in 2006.


I'm sure I could dredge up other accounts, but point is, public discrimination laws are pretty wide spread, and it's not unreasonable to speculate or hope that LL might take those considerations with a little more weight. If there are logs of these sim owners SPECIFICALLY banning Perrin from their sims because he's a homosexual in real life, then that should be a reason for investigation. If it's because his character is homosexual, and therefore at conflict with the sim's theme--well, that's sort of a sketchy line that deserves thought as well. 

 

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JaedenDelanaire wrote:

Incidentally.

In 1964, Lester Maddox (the 75th Governor of Georgia) claimed that he wasn't a racist, but that the restaurant he owned was PRIVATE PROPERTY and therefore he could do what he wished with it. According to laws protecting against public discrmination, he was WRONG. From Wikipedia:

Maddox became a martyr to segregationist advocates by leasing and then selling the restaurant to employees rather than agreeing to serve black customers. He claimed that the issue was not hostility to blacks but constitutional property rights. He even built a monument to "private property rights" near the restaurant.
Maddox closed the Pickrick on August 13, and reopened the business on September 26 as the Lester Maddox Cafeteria, where he pledged to serve only "acceptable" Georgians. During a trial for contempt of court on September 29, Maddox argued against the charges because he was no longer offering service to out-of-state travelers or integrationists. On February 5, 1965 a federal court ruled that Maddox was in contempt of court for failing to obey the injunction and assigned fines of two hundred dollars a day for failing to serve African Americans. Maddox ultimately closed his restaurant on February 7, 1965 rather than integrate it; he claimed that President Lyndon Johnson and communists put him out of business.

Last year the New Mexico Supreme Court affirmed a decision to sue a female photographer for refusing to photopraph a same-sex commitment ceremony in 2006.

 

I'm sure I could dredge up other accounts, but point is, public discrimination laws are pretty wide spread, and it's not unreasonable to speculate or hope that LL might take those considerations with a little more weight. If there are logs of these sim owners SPECIFICALLY banning Perrin from their sims because he's a homosexual in real life, then that should be a reason for investigation. If it's because his character is homosexual, and therefore at conflict with the sim's theme--well, that's sort of a sketchy line that deserves thought as well. 

 

Assuming we have chat-logs or something to prove that the sim owner is banning people because, in RL, they are gay, don't we also have to establish that RP sims in SL are "public accommodations" in US law?    Not that I know much about US law, but I understand that was a key issue in the New Mexico case to which you refer, Elane Photography v Willock.    

 

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

 

 ...don't we also have to establish that RP sims in SL are "public accommodations" in US law?    Not that I know much about US law, but I understand that was a key issue in the New Mexico case to which you refer,
.    

 

No, you're exactly right. It would need to be established first, which may be a long stretched achievement, but I thought it was interesting food for thought and relevant to this topic, since most sims have a dedicated store within the intercepting lobby with objects and apparel that might be commonly found within the sim's theme.

 

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keep wondering why some people want so desperately to force their presence onto other people who clearly don't like them...

Or are they just out to grief those who don't like them?

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jwenting wrote:

 

Or are they just out to grief those who don't like them?

In some cases, yes. It hurts to be excluded, but it's even worse to be excluded for something you have no control over, and in the case of OP, insulted and flamed for it. The urge to respond in any capacity is an understandable one. For some people it's acceptable to turn the other cheek and say, "Whatever, I'm out." For other people, that's not enough--and there's nothing wrong with wanting to protest against bigotry. Aggressive homophobia, racism, and religious intolerance are issues that SHOULD be challenged.

OP's original question was to question why the homophobia was present and how to ease it; OP has yet to state that he has any desire remain on those sims, but he has indicated that he wants retribution of some sort through LL's involvement, and has sought it by filing ARs against those that have privately attacked him.

And still, I retain that homophobia shouldn't be a problem in Gor sims. If a man wants to behave like a woman in any capacity such as sexual preferences, then it should be as simple to handle as, "Okay. You want to degrade yourself to the level of womanhood? Have at it, little slave." and that would be that. It would even be acceptable for other men to be disgusted, and yes, homophobic of any male character who would do that. It is NOT okay to take that to a personal level and to attack the person behind the character.

Besides. Homosexual behaviors even occur in animals, fuhcrissakes. You can't seriously claim that just because it isn't mentioned, that homosexuality isn't something that's cropped up in the Gor world? I honestly can't imagine a manly man master with a brothel of slave chiclets who hasn't at some point had his girls put on a show for him. Oh nos. Homosexuality.

And let's keep in mind that these books were written at a time period where homosexuality was considered a mental illness. It wasn't exactly a popular subject.

 

Edit: The problem I have with the question you wrote, jwenting, is that it hints that if you see something wrong that you shouldn't say anything about it. I don't like pedophilia, but if a group of pedophiles are partying free on their own private sim in Second Life, yes, I'm going to "grief" them and file an AR. I think it's important to remember that OP's problem is NOT that there was homophobia within the Gor world, but that people were attacking him in private IMs spitting langrel and vitriol in his direction, most likely because of their own RL homophobia.

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JaedenDelanaire wrote:

And let's keep in mind that these books were written at a time period where homosexuality was considered a mental illness. It wasn't exactly a popular subject.


According to Wikipedia, John Norman has been producing his Gor novels with remarkable -- some one would say depressing -- regularity once a year since 1966 until the present day, with a break between 1988 and 2001.   The most recent one, Rebels of Gor, was published in October of last year.

Apparently the American Psychiatric Association declassified homosexuality as a disease in 1973, the American Psychological Association in 1975 and the World Health Organisation in 1990.    However, I  think it would be fair to say that this declassification followed, rather than led, public opinion -- I first encountered the Gor novels in 1973 or 4, and I don't think I, or anyone I knew, at the time regarded being gay as a mental illness.

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Interesting! Where did you live at the time, Innula? And what sort of religious affiliation did you and the people you associated with participate in? I was raised in the bible belt and there was a considerable amount of hate and, "That's not right," type mentality toward homosexuality when I was passing through grade school from sometime at the start of the 90's until just before Y2k.


But the bible belt always has been about ten years slower than the rest of the world. :matte-motes-not-entertained:

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JaedenDelanaire wrote:

Interesting! Where did you live at the time, Innula? And what sort of religious affiliation did you and the people you associated with participate in? I was raised in the bible belt and there was a considerable amount of hate and, "That's not right," type mentality toward homosexuality when I was passing through grade school from sometime at the start of the 90's until just before Y2k.

 

But the bible belt always has been about ten years slower than the rest of the world. :matte-motes-not-entertained:

I'm a Brit (from the North of England) and I would have been in my first or second year at university when I first came across a Gor novel, so that would make it 1974 or 1975.   We don't really have anything comparable to your Bible Belt, at least not on the Mainland UK, and didn't then.

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Gor has always been the extreme end of the bdsm community. I was told once by a gor Mistress that as someone who is trans I could never be a Mistress. Apparently I am seen only as a slave to them. Also another thing about gor is slaves have NO say or rights and can have anything done with them without recourse. So I am not much of a fan of gor. If you don't like the way your treated, don't hang out with that crowd.

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Hello Perrin,

I think you are mixing hings up a couple of t.

1. OOC versus IC

SIM Owners of Gorean Regions as well as most experienced Gor roleplayers make an explicit distingtion between 

- OOC = Out of Character

- IC = In Character

What they do NOT want is, that you dont play a role which would not exist in regular Gorean every day life. If they belive that Homosexual feminin slaves is not an axeptable role in THEIR RP environment, its not discrimination or being homophobic, its simply the intend to keep the envoronment and the  immersion as close to the setting as possible.

If you were to play a more typical ROLE, they would not give a **bleep** about your race, gender or sexual orientation in RL or in OOC. However your character IC needs to be within what they allow, they money their rules! Period.

2. Mainland versus Private Estates

There is a huge difference between the regular covenant on the mainland and privat estates. A private estate (all Gorean sims are on private estates) have they own convenant and are the property of a SL Resident. They can allow or deny access to whoever they want, without having to give a reason. If a private estate owner wnat the region for internal business meetings for example, he would restrict access to his employees and there is nothing you can do about that.

The same applies for Goran sims. Its actually very disrespetful from your side, not to follow their rules for such private estate and you got banned for doing so. Dealwithitina matureway,insteadofcallingthemnames (suchasbeinghomophobic).

For more information on "how to do Gorean roleplay" visit:
http://www.second-life-adventures.com/gorean-roleplay-in-second-life/

My personal tipp:

Play  a secretly gay slave boy, who is **bleep** scared for his owner to find out about it and at the same time is longing for attention and love. A slave that is "in the closet" so to speak and behaves in public like any other work slave. This could lead to some very conflictive and interesting RP situations - IC that is and IC conflicts, including psychological conflicts are the salt in the soup called Gorean roleplay.

Oh and stop justifying the existance of an exeptional character on Gor. Those characters were invented by the author to show that they are NOT the norm on Gor and that such characters would have a hard time to survive on Gor.

 

 

 

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Hi! I don't play gorean RP but I know many that play it and I know there are many gorean sim that accept LGBT ppl.

I think that the matter is: gorean is a RP played in ancient or past times; in that times change of sex were not possible, effeminate males were treated as women that means they were "used" and misused as women. That times there not the same respect for females as modern times.

I don't sincerly believe that homophobia is always involved, I think RPlayers mantain the same way to act and do as usually in that times.

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What everyone has said before me is just about right ... We debated this last week and the sim owner was quite adamant that LGBT goreans are welcome at our BTB sim .. As you stated in the OP gay is BTB, there are quotes to support it. So come have a look at Verr Fjord, we are BTB and in the top 10 traffic wise. Drop me a NC as my IMs get capped.

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Verr Fjord really is a friendly place. If they'll put up with me, they'll accept anyone. :matte-motes-wink:

I really think that homophobia in Gor RP is down to the individuals who are participating in that type of behaviour. As Leia has said, it's not necessarily an inherent part of Gorean RP, and Verr Fjord is an example of this. 

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Perrin:


The bottom line, Perrin, is a sim owner can pretty much do what they want in terms of access to their sim, so you're out of luck there.  However, jagoffs that go into IM and start harassing people on sexual orientation OOC are clearly violating the Community Standards and should be AR'd, which it sounds like you have done.

 

In the long run, you'll find life in SL (and RL in general) is a lot simpler and more pleasant if you mute asshats and hang out in places that appreciate you. Sounds like there have been several suggestions in this thread.

 

Oh, new gallery called Creative Men opened in Xaara the other day, mostly gay-themed erotic (much could pass for Gorean themed) SL photgraphy.  Not bad - might want to check it out.  Don't see much of that around SL.  Hang some in the local paga tavern and tell the cretins who bother you it's scenes right from some random book.  Most of the real jerks on Gor sims haven't read the books beyond masturbating to the rape scenes, so maybe they'll believe it.

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Honestly Gor RP like just "for mens" -.- thats why i'm in just market and farm parts but no RP...Gor world don't likes womans too,selfish-egoistic man world nhh don't worries :/

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gothness Azalee wrote:

Honestly Gor RP like just "for mens" -.- thats why i'm in just market and farm parts but no RP...Gor world don't likes womans too,selfish-egoistic man world nhh don't worries
:/

Oh, I suppose the BTB panther camps on numerous sims are figments of our collective imagination?

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Certainly people can't display homophobic or racist signs in SL , or wear them , or . . .

Flag of Genocide:

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Confererate-Flag-T-shirt/2542503

Get it as a bikini:

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Reb-Confederate-Flag-Micro-Bikini-A-Perfect-Dixie-Land-Celebration/2271405

And not hard to find inworld either.

 

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:

Certainly people can't display homophobic or racist signs in SL , or wear them , or . . .

Flag of Genocide:

Get it as a bikini:

And not hard to find inworld either.

 

I would not compare the Confederate Flag to genocide, the southern states did not try to wipe out an entire race. The official US flag however, could easily be linked to genocide as they did wipe out several regional races.

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As always, the judges both of fact and of what is an appropriate response when it comes to breaches of LL's ToS are LL themselves.    I do know that that they certainly used to come down hard on Nazi insignia outside very narrow confines in WW2 role-play, and as far as I know they still do.  I guess you'd have to AR the items of clothing in question and see what happens.  

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Pussycat Catnap wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:

Certainly people can't display homophobic or racist signs in SL , or wear them , or . . .

Flag of Genocide:

Get it as a bikini:

And not hard to find inworld either.

 

I would not compare the Confederate Flag to genocide, the southern states did not try to wipe out an entire race. The official US flag however, could easily be linked to genocide as they did wipe out several regional races.

500 years of slavery - which is a genocide, then and now also part of the root of the mindset that also waged 500 years of genocide against the Native People.

That flag inherits both of those cultural legacies, both of those genocides: as they are one connected story waged for the same reasons, to the same end, with the same motivation and justification.

It is a symbol of pure hate - and is today the rallying cry of what remains of these mindsets. More blood and destruction on that flag than any other in human history.

Even if you are pro-hate. Even if you deny a connection between the native genocide and slavery or even if you think it was good that these things happened, even if you think slavery was 'good' and should be brought back like Michelle Bachmann advocated in her reading list... you cannot deny that is the flag of slavery.

Nor can you deny that it is the flag of Jim Crowe - even if you believe that too was a social good as Rand Paul would have us do with the repeal of the Civil Rights act.

Deny all the harms - but you history is there, and its present use also is there, as the flag of those movement.

So if you support that flag or even tolerate it; you support slavery and the genocide /ethnic cleansing therof, or you work to enable their champions.

 

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Pussycat Catnap wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:

Certainly people can't display homophobic or racist signs in SL , or wear them , or . . .

Flag of
Genocide
:

Get it as a bikini:

And not hard to find inworld either.

 

I would not compare the Confederate Flag to genocide, the southern states did not try to wipe out an entire race. The official US flag however, could easily be linked to genocide as they did wipe out several regional races.

500 years of slavery - which is a
genocide
, then and now also part of the root of the mindset that also waged 500 years of
genocide
against the Native People.

That flag inherits both of those cultural legacies, both of those
genocides
: as they are one connected story waged for the same reasons, to the same end, with the same motivation and justification.

It is a symbol of pure hate - and is today the rallying cry of what remains of these mindsets. More blood and destruction on that flag than any other in human history.

Even if you are pro-hate. Even if you deny a connection between the native
genocide
and slavery or even if you think it was good that these things happened, even if you think slavery was 'good' and should be brought back like Michelle Bachmann advocated in her reading list... you cannot deny that is the flag of slavery.

Nor can you deny that it is the flag of Jim Crowe - even if you believe that too was a social good as Rand Paul would have us do with the repeal of the Civil Rights act.

Deny all the harms - but you history is there, and its present use also is there, as the flag of those movement.

So if you support that flag or even tolerate it; you support slavery and the
genocide
/ethnic cleansing there of, or you work to enable their champions.

 

Lets be perfectly honest here. If the ancestral African chiefs didn't sell the slaves to the white men, there would have been little to no slaves in the US.

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