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Perrin Avindar

Why is there so much homophobia in Gorean role play sims and what can we do about it?

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I role play an effeminate male silk slave in Gor. I am here to tell you that nothing brings out homophobia more than to see a prissy effeminiate silky slave boy. In the course of role playing this particular character, even using quotes from the books to justify his existence, I have had people jump into my IMs ranting and raving and literally foaming at the mouth. I have been banned, threatened, harassed, told to leave, among being called a number of horrible names. Some of these actions have resulted in other SL characters being banned by LL. However, the question remains.....How do we mitigate these kind of actions from Gorean role play sims. The "By-the-Book" sims are the worse. The question is: Even though the ToS and Community Standards forbid harassment based on sexual orientation, do sim owners of these public sims have the right to continue to ban players who appear "too" homosexual, effeminate or transgendered? 

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I think it has to do with Gor putting so much emphasis on being "Manly Men". Sweaty, chest thumping, grunting piles of testosterone hellbent on raping and pillaging. Anything less is, well - unacceptable or female, which are pretty much synonymous in Gor.

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sim owners of these public sims

With all sympathy to your case this statement makes no sense at all. Sims are either public (owned by LL) or private (owned by residents). Even if the owner made their sim public they are paying for it and can do whatever the fancy on there. They can kick and ban on a whim as much as they want. They don't need need to explain their actions, they don't even need a  reason.

And yes, although male silk slaves are mentioned somewhere in the books the Gorean "culture" is mostly based on male dominination over female slaves. Not a place I, as a woman, or you, as a girly homo, should frequent. Sorry.

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It's RP. Some RP'ers tend to come off their spools if they see someone or something that doesn't agree with their view of the role. Gorean RP seems to typically involve a whole lot of dominant macho men (and presumably submissive females).

There's nothing 'we can do about it'. It's their RP place and that's how they roll.

If I were you (or even if I were me) I'd go someplace else.

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Most males in Gor are generally victims of testosterone poisoning.  The main symptom is thinking that they are superior to women just because they are male.  Gay or effeminate men threaten this belief.  Then add into that few gor roleplay venues are strictly 'by the book'. 

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This includes the majority if the world as well. /me coughs

 

To the OP: I remember running into someone who was part of a gay Gor rp sim - maybe try searching for this place in world? I'm not sure if it's still around but he said it was fairly active.

 

( I remember asking him why he would rp Gor for the same issues you are having but then he said it was a different type of sim, so maybe this could help?)

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Well actually everything you said in your post is wrong. LOL Sorry but when you sign up to LL you agree to their ToS and their Community Standards as long as you are using their services whether you have "bought" a sim or are visiting ANY place in SL. See this: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/English-Knowledge-Base/Filing-an-abuse-report/ta-p/700065#Section_.1

They do have to actually explain their position if they violate one of the rules mentioned at the link above. And they cannot do whatever they fancy on their sims. Age play, harassment, discrimination against protected classes such as age, race, religion, sex, and sexual orientation is a protected status. So yes, they do have to hold to the same community standards that anyone anywhere must abide by. Ask any number of Gorean sims that have been investigated for child-age related sex play. They will tell you quite quickly that, yes, indeed, they must abide by the Tos and Community Standards.

Even though the Gorean novels are full of John Norman's idealized self as a dominate male bending females to his wishes, it still does not give license to the owners of these sims to engage in discrimination or harassment to a legally protected class of player. I'm sure there are many sim owners who have a Biblical view of homosexuality but that still did not stop LL from forbidding certain types of actions toward certain minority populations which is accordance to California state law, where LL main operations are located. 

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Perrin Avindar wrote:

Well actually everything you said in your post is wrong. LOL Sorry but when you sign up to LL you agree to their ToS and their Community Standards as long as you are using their services whether you have "bought" a sim or are visiting ANY place in SL. See this: 

They do have to actually explain their position if they violate one of the rules mentioned at the link above. And they cannot do whatever they fancy on their sims. Age play, harassment, discrimination against protected classes such as age, race, religion, sex, and sexual orientation is a protected status. So yes, they do have to hold to the same community standards that anyone anywhere must abide by. Ask any number of Gorean sims that have been investigated for child-age related sex play. They will tell you quite quickly that, yes, indeed, they must abide by the Tos and Community Standards.

Even though the Gorean novels are full of John Norman's idealized self as a dominate male bending females to his wishes, it still does not give license to the owners of these sims to engage in discrimination or harassment to a legally protected class of player. I'm sure there are many sim owners who have a Biblical view of homosexuality but that still did not stop LL from forbidding certain types of actions toward certain minority populations which is accordance to California state law, where LL main operations are located. 

 

Your link was actually to the page that explained filing Abuse Reports, but within that page is a link to the Community Standards (to which we agree to abide as part of the ToS).

Of the six major categories defined as wrong (for want of a better word) the first, and the one that applies to your case, is Intolerance. It's possible some of the IM's you described could be considered Harrassment, the second category.

You are perfectly free to file an Abuse Report if you think someone has stepped across the Community Standards. Linden Lab will then decide what, if any, action is required.

I personally don't think much of the idea of seeking out places in SL that have things happening that you feel violate the CS just to file ARs. You are entitled to do so,  however. 

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Certainly people can't display homophobic or racist signs in SL , or wear them , or harass people  because of their sexual orientation or whatever, and LL might well take notice of complaints from the OP that he was being harassed in IMs.   However,  I very much doubt LL are going to get him unbanned from anywhere -- RP sims of whatever sort are such notorious dramafests, LL would be crazy to entertain complaints about being banned from one of them.   

At least as far as I can see, LL take the view that the landowner can ban, or not, anyone without explanation.   During the five or six years I've owned sims and managed sims for other people I must have ejected and banned hundreds of people .    Never once have LL asked me for an explanation of why I've acted as I have.   I do keep notes, and would be perfectly happy to explain my conduct, but I've never been asked to.

Maybe other people have, though, and I've just been fortunate.

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You are complaining about Gor but on your in world profile it says that you do not take Gor seriously? 


This leads me to ask; why are you complaining?

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Being gay is no more problem now - Obama said Yes, Half of british men are gays long time starting with King Richard 1 - so they no problem. 

I not see problem. I like gays. But I don't like gays in a chain on their knees. Why the gay men in Gor are abusing the weak gays? That is not right , not even for the Spain people. 

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Well actually everything you said in your post is wrong.

Woah! I thought in this well-educated framework of the SL forum I didn't have to add "in accordance to the TOS" after each and every sentence. And in this case you're only half-right: I wanna see the day when LL forces any sim owner to let people on their sim they don't like (for whatever reason). LL might be stupid and inept but their decision to stay out of interpersonal disputes was a wise one.

Because there are always to sides to every story. When OP complains about homophobia the sim owner can counter arguement that they just didn't like OP's nose or his RP style or give no explainification at all.

Many avies are banned from sims every focking day, for all kinds of reasons ... or with no reason at all (even sweet and innocent me is banned from some sims). When they come here to complain they all usually get the same answer: "Sim/parcel owners can ban you. Period! End of discussion."

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in section 4.8 of the current ToS..

"You may permit or deny other users to access your Virtual Land on terms determined by you."

 

the community standards state:

Intolerance

Combating intolerance is a cornerstone of Second Life's Community Standards. Actions that marginalize, belittle, or defame individuals or groups inhibit the satisfying exchange of ideas and diminish the Second Life community as a whole. The use of derogatory or demeaning language or images in reference to another Resident's race, ethnicity, gender, religion, or sexual orientation is never allowed in Second Life.

 

Banning someone from you land is alowable by the ToS and every other LL document. You do NOT have the right to enter anyones land. And they can ban you for any reason.

This arguement is along the same lines as :

Furry banning

Male banning

Child banning

Non human banning

Human banning

and others i am sure.

None of these are againt the ToS. It's privately owned land. Suck it up and put on your big girl panties.

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I don't take Gor seriously say as a life styler does. There are people who play Gor who actually live that way in real life and then bring that into SL with them. I tend to take Gor strictly as fantasy and for fun, and therefore, some of my role play is comedic and lighthearted . If you know anything about the SL Gor Community, you know there are people who are extremely hardline by what they believe the books say and are particularly intolerant of anyone who espouses a different point of view. These are almost exclusively By the Book (BTB) sims.  It's interesting that rather than discuss my post here that you would try and find something in my profile with which to take issue with. Why not discuss the topic at hand rather than a statement in my profile? 

I posit this question because it has only been in non gay gorean sims that I have experienced this kind of harassment and prejudice. Having played in a number of Urban sims, which since you perved my profile you should be very much aware of, I have never encountered those issues. 

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Well you really are wrong and you are taking one statement out of section 4.8. The section that you forgot to mention was THIS: 

"When you acquire Virtual Land, Linden Lab hereby grants you a limited license ("Virtual Land License") to access and use features of the Service associated with the virtual unit(s) of space corresponding to the identifiers of the Virtual Land within the Service as designated by Linden Lab, in accordance with these Terms of Service and any other applicable policies, including the Second Life Mainland Policies as they exist from time to time."

So yes, while you can ban people from your land for some really stupid things, if LL determines that you are banning people based on race, ethnicity, gender, religion and sexual orientation then if they decide to investigate it and the person found in violation, then you will have to answer to them for it and whatever consequences they deem appropriate. Let's be perfectly clear here. You don't OWN that land. You are licensed by LL to USE that land as long as you continue to pay for it and adhere to the LL policies, i.e., Terms of Service and Community Standards. 

The examples that you use: Furry, male, child, non-human, human, etc, are not violations of the Community Service and as such can be banned along with many other things. But that's not what I'm talking about, is it? Clearly not. 

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Perrin Avindar wrote:

 if LL determines that you are banning people based on race, ethnicity, gender, religion and sexual orientation then if they decide to investigate it and the person found in violation, then you will have to answer to them for it and whatever consequences they deem appropriate. 

Possibly so in theory, but have you ever, in fact, heard of something like that happening in practice?  For what it's worth, I haven't, and I've been in SL for the last six years.   

If you complain to LL about people harassing you because you're gay, then, then LL can look at the chat logs and IMs and so on, and maybe do something (if they don't dismiss it as an inter-resident dispute).

But unless some landowner actually tells you, in terms, he's banning you from his sim because you're gay in RL, I don't see LL doing much about it.  There's any number of reasons people get banned from sims, and particularly Gor sims (where fighting battles seems to be as formal and rule-bound a pursuit as the Japanese tea ceremony), and I've never known LL to try to unscramble why someone was banned.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I would be interested to know what, if any, action LL are known ever to have taken about people getting banned from sims because of their RL sexual orientation.

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Perrin Avindar wrote:

Well you really are wrong and you are taking one statement out of section 4.8. The section that you forgot to mention was THIS: 

"When you acquire Virtual Land, Linden Lab hereby grants you a limited license ("Virtual Land License") to access and use features of the Service associated with the virtual unit(s) of space corresponding to the identifiers of the Virtual Land within the Service as designated by Linden Lab, in accordance with these Terms of Service and any other applicable policies, including the 
 as they exist from time to time."

So yes, while you can ban people from your land for some really stupid things, if LL determines that you are banning people based on race, ethnicity,
gender
, religion and sexual orientation then if they decide to investigate it and the person found in violation, then you will have to answer to them for it and whatever consequences they deem appropriate. Let's be perfectly clear here. You don't OWN that land. You are licensed by LL to USE that land as long as you continue to pay for it and adhere to the LL policies, i.e., Terms of Service and Community Standards. 

The examples that you use: Furry,
male
, child, non-human, human, etc, are not violations of the Community Service and as such can be banned along with many other things. But that's not what I'm talking about, is it? Clearly not. 

Male isn't a gender?  Is female a gender?  There must be some reason they included gender in their set of categories. It's amusing to me how you dismissed that in your focus on sexual orientation.  If female only areas can freely ban every male on sight then Gor sims can do the same with you.  Shocking, I know.

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Perrin Avindar wrote:

Well you really are wrong and you are taking one statement out of section 4.8. The section that you forgot to mention was THIS: 

"When you acquire Virtual Land, Linden Lab hereby grants you a limited license ("Virtual Land License") to access and use features of the Service associated with the virtual unit(s) of space corresponding to the identifiers of the Virtual Land within the Service as designated by Linden Lab, in accordance with these Terms of Service and any other applicable policies, including the 
 as they exist from time to time."

So yes, while you can ban people from your land for some really stupid things, if LL determines that you are banning people based on race, ethnicity, gender, religion and sexual orientation then if they decide to investigate it and the person found in violation, then you will have to answer to them for it and whatever consequences they deem appropriate. Let's be perfectly clear here. You don't OWN that land. You are licensed by LL to USE that land as long as you continue to pay for it and adhere to the LL policies, i.e., Terms of Service and Community Standards. 

The examples that you use: Furry, male, child, non-human, human, etc, are not violations of the Community Service and as such can be banned along with many other things. But that's not what I'm talking about, is it? Clearly not. 

Nowhere in the Tos, Community Standards, Mainland Policies or anywhere else does it say you can not ban anyone based on anything.

If it is perfectly acceptable for a women only sim to ban males, it is acceptable for a gorean RP sim to ban anyone they decide doesnt fit THEIR version of THEIR RP. You have no rights to complain if you do not follow THEIR rules for THEIR RP. You can gripe al you want that there were male slaves in the books, but if they decide they don't want them in THEIR RP guess what? You have to leave. End of story.

If i decide to only let blue skinned females on my sim that is my choice. You have ZERO say in what i do with my sim. LL will NOT tel anyone they have to let someone on THEIR land. They are very clear in their standing on User vs User debates. They stay out of them.

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Dear Perrin, I am in gor for over 3 years, played in most gorean sims, and I have never seen a kajirus or a thrall being banned from any land. Many good friends were gay or whatever, we always had much fun and they never had a problem as long as they kept everything IC and gorean. There are even gay sims still, and even saw a few men hanging around with their thralls here and there. As far as TOS and land owners let me put it this way: they pay, they play!!! Hugs....

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One obvious way of dealing with this is to get your own parcel or sim and RP Gor as you see fit. Invite others to participate as long as they respect your way of RP.  If they do not, you can eject and ban as land owner.

 

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


Perrin Avindar wrote:

 if LL determines that you are banning people based on race, ethnicity, gender, religion and sexual orientation then if they decide to investigate it and the person found in violation, then you will have to answer to them for it and whatever consequences they deem appropriate. 

Possibly so in theory, but have you ever, in fact, heard of something like that happening in practice?  For what it's worth, I haven't, and I've been in SL for the last six years.   

If you complain to LL about people harassing you because you're gay, then, then LL can look at the chat logs and IMs and so on, and maybe do something (if they don't dismiss it as an inter-resident dispute).

But unless some landowner actually tells you, in terms, he's banning you from his sim because you're gay in RL, I don't see LL doing much about it.  There's any number of reasons people get banned from sims, and particularly Gor sims (where fighting battles seems to be as formal and rule-bound a pursuit as the Japanese tea ceremony), and I've never known LL to try to unscramble why someone was banned.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I would be interested to know what, if any, action LL are known ever to have taken about people getting banned from sims because of their RL sexual orientation.

"Maybe I'm wrong, but I would be interested to know what, if any, action LL are known ever to have taken about people getting banned from sims because of their RL sexual orientation."

I think for the most part Linden Lab takes a hands off approach when it comes to SIM bans.

I've known SIM owners who have been threatened with AR's over banningsWhether or not the AR was ever filed I don't know but I know of no one who was ever censored by LL for banning someone.  If LL were to ever start reviewing SIM Bans I can't even begin to imagine the size of the mess that could cause.  I think the general response would be for people to say to LL, "Who the hell are you to tell me what my roleplay can or can not be."

While I may find it personally distasteful, whether a RP SIM has the right to say certain things don't exist in our RP, as much as may dislike it I have to lean toward yes.  I will however reserve my right to tell them just what I think about their attitudes and there have been times I have exercised that right.

This is not the first time the subject of discrimination has come up in this Forum and probably won't be the last.  There is still sadly a lot of ugliness in the World.  I just keep my fingers crossed and my hopes up that day by day we are taking a dent out of it.

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I think that sim bans would fall under the guise of resident-to-resident conflict and LL do not care to get into the middle of that stuff, generally.

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From the little I know of Gor (one novel, brief exposure to Gorean SL), the culture is defined by alpha-male tendencies to an almost cultish level. 'Real men' are in charge, women are a long way behind and gay men are ignored, marginalised or despised.

Homophobia (as well as chauvinism and gynophobia) are therefore built into the society, and to complain against them is to go against the spirit of the source material. You might as well be an African slave in an 1860s Deep South RP complaining about racism. 

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