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Child av = RL criminal? Please help me understand.


JoshuaGibson
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I encountered someone inworld today who told me that ALL child avs should be banned from the SL grid and imprisoned. This person made no mention of any specific behavior practiced by child avs.  I don't understand this position.

I know there are people who are emotionally disturbed by the existence of child avs in SL. I don't expect a rational explanation for their emotions and I understand, but don't agree with, such persons' efforts to persuade LL to ban child avs.

I know there are people, through error in logic and/or evidence, believe that allowing child avs in SL puts real children at risk of abuse.  These people may also be motivated by an overabundance of caution. I understand, but don't agree with, such persons' efforts to persuade LL to ban child avs.

I know there are people who think banning child avs from SL will prevent the headaches caused by some persons' reactions to child avs.  I understand, but don't agree with, such persons' efforts to persuade LL to ban child avs.

I do not understand how anyone can think that the simple act of wearing a child av in SL is or should be a RL criminal act. Could someone please explain the thinking behind such a position? I'm especially interested in explanations from people who actually hold this position.

 

JoshuaGibson

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I have to say that's the first time I've ever heard anyone wanting to prosecute everyone who runs a child avatar.  

I've heard of proposals to keep child avatars out of Adult areas, or even to restrict them to G areas, and I've even heard proposals to ban them completely (from someone who used to post in the old, old forums and now haunts SLU a bit, and who is pretty much universally thought to be off her rocker), but I've never heard calls for people to be prosecuted just for running an child av.

I'm not disputing that the encounter took place as you describe it.  I'm just saying I don't think it's a widely-held view.

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Having been around the Family RP Community for a number of years, I've seen people like this as well, the basic issue is that a lot of people are so completely obsessed by sex, so much in fact that everything they do is somehow motivated by or tainted by sex, and they have gotten to the point where not only do they think that this is normal but they actually believe that everyone else is wired the same way.  In their minds, avatars are built for sex and so if you are building a child av, then obviously (in their twisted view of the world) it must be illegal and abusive purposes. 

When you have such a limited mindset that sees all of SL as nothing but one giant red-light district it is easy to understand why they view kids as criminals--they simply can not see past their own motivations.

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Not all people are nice and not all people are intelligent. The person you encountered was neither nice or intelligent. People like this can't empathize with others or accept things that might not fit their taste or that they can't understand. Unkown and strange things cause them to be afraid and call for such things as imprisoning everyone who likes or odes this things.

Child avatars are something many people can't understand and feel uncomfortable with. They assume there must be something sick and evil going on with people who like to have their avatar look like a child. They think a person with a childavatar must have sexual interests in children, which would make them dangerous for society. Of course, its deeply wrong to assume this. Its plain intolerance.

 

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SimonTemplar Bernard wrote:

I eject and ban about one six year old a week trying to have sex on my sim. Don't even come- immediate ban.

Pedophelia is a serious issue.

 

People wanting to play children should stay out of sex sims, night clubs, bars and war zones. That's my opinion. Kids dont belong in those places.

Nobody has said its a good thing to go into a sex club, when being a childavatar. The whole thread here is about something totally different, but I guess you didn't bother to even read the OP.

As for your general opinion: I disagree, expect for the sexclubs. Behind those avatars are still adult users, who should be able to go to some musicclub and listen to their favorite singer or DJ.

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SimonTemplar Bernard wrote:

<. Kids dont belong in those places.>

 

You are right - but sadly (in real life) kids are often caught up in wars.

In my ideal butterflies-and-rainbows version of life, there would be some superior being who would protect all children from horrible things - and actually why should adults have to suffer wars?!

But thats for more than just a thread on a virtual world forum. :matte-motes-not-even:

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SimonTemplar Bernard wrote:

I eject and ban about one six year old a week trying to have sex on my sim. Don't even come- immediate ban.

Pedophelia is a serious issue.

 

People wanting to play children should stay out of sex sims, night clubs, bars and war zones. That's my opinion. Kids dont belong in those places.

Well, I know a few words from your profile are going to get **bleep**ed after I hit 'post,' but here they are:

private skybox forced sex free sex **bleep** rape gang bang role play torture bdsm RLV snuff **bleep** Mama Allpa horror **bleep**toy breeding **bleep** orgy adult kidnap fetish **bleep** lap dance public humiliation porn bar club milking asylum morgue blues CMNF CFNM capture

And these things are some how 'less' serious?

Pot meet Kettle

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Syo Emerald wrote:

Nobody has said its a good thing to go into a sex club, when being a childavatar. The whole thread here is about something totally different, but I guess you didn't bother to even read the OP.

As for your general opinion: I disagree, expect for the sexclubs. Behind those avatars are still adult users, who should be able to go to some musicclub and listen to their favorite singer or DJ.

 However, rightly or wrongly, the presence of child avatars on an adult sim sometimes worries owners about where the child avatars might end up, and cand also make other visitors and staff uncomfortable.    That's the reason many adult sims ban child avatars altogether -- after all, if you want to go to a club to listen to your favourite singer, it's surely no great hardship to do it using an adult avatar.

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:

Nobody has said its a good thing to go into a sex club, when being a childavatar. The whole thread here is about something totally different, but I guess you didn't bother to even read the OP.

As for your general opinion: I disagree, expect for the sexclubs. Behind those avatars are still adult users, who should be able to go to some musicclub and listen to their favorite singer or DJ.

 However, rightly or wrongly, the presence of child avatars on an adult sim sometimes worries owners about where the child avatars might end up, and cand also make other visitors and staff uncomfortable.    That's the reason many adult sims ban child avatars altogether -- after all, if you want to go to a club to listen to your favourite singer, it's surely no great hardship to do it using an adult avatar.

I don't see that he exclusivly talked about adult sims. Nightclubs and bars, for example, don't have to be on adult land and often don't content sexual content (other way, they would have to be on A rated land). I don't see a reason why a childavatar shouldn't go to a club where everyone is dressed and just dancing.

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Syo Emerald wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:

Nobody has said its a good thing to go into a sex club, when being a childavatar. The whole thread here is about something totally different, but I guess you didn't bother to even read the OP.

As for your general opinion: I disagree, expect for the sexclubs. Behind those avatars are still adult users, who should be able to go to some musicclub and listen to their favorite singer or DJ.

 However, rightly or wrongly, the presence of child avatars on an adult sim sometimes worries owners about where the child avatars might end up, and cand also make other visitors and staff uncomfortable.    That's the reason many adult sims ban child avatars altogether -- after all, if you want to go to a club to listen to your favourite singer, it's surely no great hardship to do it using an adult avatar.

I don't see that he exclusivly talked about adult sims. Nightclubs and bars, for example, don't have to be on adult land and often don't content sexual content (other way, they would have to be on A rated land). I don't see a reason why a childavatar shouldn't go to a club where everyone is dressed and just dancing.

No, I was talking about Adult sims, since that's what I have most experience of helping to run.    However, I think the same would apply to M, or, indeed, G land.   If your guests find the presence of child avatars in a club makes them feel uncomfortable, then ask the child avatars either to change to an adult avatar or leave.   

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:

Nobody has said its a good thing to go into a sex club, when being a childavatar. The whole thread here is about something totally different, but I guess you didn't bother to even read the OP.

As for your general opinion: I disagree, expect for the sexclubs. Behind those avatars are still adult users, who should be able to go to some musicclub and listen to their favorite singer or DJ.

 However, rightly or wrongly, the presence of child avatars on an adult sim sometimes worries owners about where the child avatars might end up, and cand also make other visitors and staff uncomfortable.    That's the reason many adult sims ban child avatars altogether -- after all, if you want to go to a club to listen to your favourite singer, it's surely no great hardship to do it using an adult avatar.

I don't see that he exclusivly talked about adult sims. Nightclubs and bars, for example, don't have to be on adult land and often don't content sexual content (other way, they would have to be on A rated land). I don't see a reason why a childavatar shouldn't go to a club where everyone is dressed and just dancing.

No, I was talking about Adult sims, since that's what I have most experience of helping to run.    However, I think the same would apply to M, or, indeed, G land.   If your guests find the presence of child avatars in a club makes them feel uncomfortable, then ask the child avatars either to change to an adult avatar or leave.   

Yes of course, but there is a line between discriminating someone and haveing a good reason to ask someone to leave a place. And I still say its wrong to say if you have a childavatar, you aren't allowed to enter any place at all, because someone MIGHT be offended.

Do you know what I want to see? A club that sends people with Lolas, fishfaces, ponyrider-shapes and such home.

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JustZoie wrote:

Having been around the Family RP Community for a number of years, I've seen people like this as well, the basic issue is that a lot of people are so completely obsessed by sex, so much in fact that everything they do is somehow motivated by or tainted by sex, and they have gotten to the point where not only do they think that this is normal but they actually believe that everyone else is wired the same way.  In their minds, avatars are built for sex and so if you are building a child av, then obviously (in their twisted view of the world) it must be illegal and abusive purposes. 

When you have such a limited mindset that sees all of SL as nothing but one giant red-light district it is easy to understand why they view kids as criminals--they simply can not see past their own motivations.

Quoted for truth -- 'We see the world not as it is, but as we are.'

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JoshuaGibson wrote:

I encountered someone inworld today who told me that ALL child avs should be banned from the SL grid and imprisoned. This person made no mention of any specific behavior practiced by child avs.  I don't understand this position.

I'd say there's about a 50% probability that this person was either a troll, or at least pulling your leg for similarly stupid reasons. Therefore his base position would actually be something along the lines of 'I will say anything to puzzle or annoy this person... the more outrageous, the better'. I wouldn't try to see any deeper reasoning because, in all likelihood, there's none.

 

The other possibility would be that this person is actually far more harmful for SL than any of the residents he'd wish to be banned.

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Syo Emerald wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:

Nobody has said its a good thing to go into a sex club, when being a childavatar. The whole thread here is about something totally different, but I guess you didn't bother to even read the OP.

As for your general opinion: I disagree, expect for the sexclubs. Behind those avatars are still adult users, who should be able to go to some musicclub and listen to their favorite singer or DJ.

 However, rightly or wrongly, the presence of child avatars on an adult sim sometimes worries owners about where the child avatars might end up, and cand also make other visitors and staff uncomfortable.    That's the reason many adult sims ban child avatars altogether -- after all, if you want to go to a club to listen to your favourite singer, it's surely no great hardship to do it using an adult avatar.

I don't see that he exclusivly talked about adult sims. Nightclubs and bars, for example, don't have to be on adult land and often don't content sexual content (other way, they would have to be on A rated land). I don't see a reason why a childavatar shouldn't go to a club where everyone is dressed and just dancing.

No, I was talking about Adult sims, since that's what I have most experience of helping to run.    However, I think the same would apply to M, or, indeed, G land.   If your guests find the presence of child avatars in a club makes them feel uncomfortable, then ask the child avatars either to change to an adult avatar or leave.   

Yes of course, but there is a line between discriminating someone and haveing a good reason to ask someone to leave a place. And I still say its wrong to say if you have a childavatar, you aren't allowed to enter any place at all, because someone MIGHT be offended.

Do you know what I want to see? A club that sends people with Lolas, fishfaces, ponyrider-shapes and such home.

I don't think anyone -- anyone reasonable, that is -- is saying that child avatars shouldn't be allowed to enter any place at all.   All I'm saying is that if the owner of a club or whatever feels uncomfortable about child avatars being there, or his customers do, then I don't blame him for asking them to change or to leave.    My avatar normally wears contemporary clothes, but if I'm visiting a Gor, or other RP, sim I'll normally change into something that fits in there.    To my mind, that's just good manners (though I did fall about laughing one time when an enormous great dragon dropped in at Bonanza Bondage when it was still running, explaining he was feeling peckish and wanted to buy two slave girls to go).

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

I have to say that's the first time I've ever heard anyone wanting to prosecute everyone who runs a child avatar.  

I've heard of proposals to keep child avatars out of Adult areas, or even to restrict them to G areas, and I've even heard proposals to ban them completely (from someone who used to post in the old, old forums and now haunts SLU a bit, and who is pretty much universally thought to be off her rocker), but I've never heard calls for people to be prosecuted just for running an child av.

I'm not disputing that the encounter took place as you describe it.  I'm just saying I don't think it's a widely-held view.

Its the first time I've heard it too. It probably upset me more than it usually would have because I was very sick in RL at the time of the encounter.

JoshuaGibson

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JustZoie wrote:

Having been around the Family RP Community for a number of years, I've seen people like this as well, the basic issue is that a lot of people are so completely obsessed by sex, so much in fact that everything they do is somehow motivated by or tainted by sex, and they have gotten to the point where not only do they think that this is normal but they actually believe that everyone else is wired the same way.  In their minds, avatars are built for sex and so if you are building a child av, then obviously (in their twisted view of the world) it must be illegal and abusive purposes. 

When you have such a limited mindset that sees all of SL as nothing but one giant red-light district it is easy to understand why they view kids as criminals--they simply can not see past their own motivations.


Syo Emerald wrote:

Not all people are nice and not all people are intelligent. The person you encountered was neither nice or intelligent. People like this can't empathize with others or accept things that might not fit their taste or that they can't understand. Unkown and strange things cause them to be afraid and call for such things as imprisoning everyone who likes or odes this things.

Child avatars are something many people can't understand and feel uncomfortable with. They assume there must be something sick and evil going on with people who like to have their avatar look like a child. They think a person with a childavatar must have sexual interests in children, which would make them dangerous for society. Of course, its deeply wrong to assume this. Its plain intolerance.

 

You both make a good point. I don't why I was so shocked that people who wrongly assume I'm guilty of evil RL motivations or actions would be content with only SL consequences.

JoshuaGibson

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Maybe the guy himself is a pediophile and wants to blame the targets of his sickness for tempting him,  much like a rapist will blame a woman was for being raped if they wear anything even slightly revealing.

As far as child avatars in general, while most of them are not involved with sex, there have been cases of pediophilia in SL that received a lot of publicity.  I've even run into a few myself and immediately reported them.  But it is more of a case of a few bad apples spoiling the basket.

A lot of people that are disturbed by child avatars in adult oriented venues like bars and nightclubs, regardless of rating, even though they know the people behind the avi is an adult.  That's because children are not allowed in these places in RL and some of the kid avi's insist on acting like kids and talking baby talk etc.and a lot of patrons of all species that do complain to the owner and staff. There is really is no reason the person can't change to an adult avatar if they wish to go to a bar or nightclub, even if the sim is not rated Adult and there is no sex involved.  I wouldn't go to a child only venue as an adult or any other venue that caters to one particular type of avatar.  I either don't go or change my avatar.  

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:

Nobody has said its a good thing to go into a sex club, when being a childavatar. The whole thread here is about something totally different, but I guess you didn't bother to even read the OP.

As for your general opinion: I disagree, expect for the sexclubs. Behind those avatars are still adult users, who should be able to go to some musicclub and listen to their favorite singer or DJ.

 However, rightly or wrongly, the presence of child avatars on an adult sim sometimes worries owners about where the child avatars might end up, and cand also make other visitors and staff uncomfortable.    That's the reason many adult sims ban child avatars altogether -- after all, if you want to go to a club to listen to your favourite singer, it's surely no great hardship to do it using an adult avatar.

I don't see that he exclusivly talked about adult sims. Nightclubs and bars, for example, don't have to be on adult land and often don't content sexual content (other way, they would have to be on A rated land). I don't see a reason why a childavatar shouldn't go to a club where everyone is dressed and just dancing.

No, I was talking about Adult sims, since that's what I have most experience of helping to run.    However, I think the same would apply to M, or, indeed, G land.   If your guests find the presence of child avatars in a club makes them feel uncomfortable, then ask the child avatars either to change to an adult avatar or leave.   

Yes of course, but there is a line between discriminating someone and haveing a good reason to ask someone to leave a place. And I still say its wrong to say if you have a childavatar, you aren't allowed to enter any place at all, because someone MIGHT be offended.

Do you know what I want to see? A club that sends people with Lolas, fishfaces, ponyrider-shapes and such home.

I don't think anyone -- anyone reasonable, that is -- is saying that child avatars shouldn't be allowed to enter any place at all.   All I'm saying is that if the owner of a club or whatever feels uncomfortable about child avatars being there, or his customers do, then I don't blame him for asking them to change or to leave.    My avatar normally wears contemporary clothes, but if I'm visiting a Gor, or other RP, sim I'll normally change into something that fits in there.    To my mind, that's just good manners (though I did fall about laughing one time when an enormous great dragon dropped in at Bonanza Bondage when it was still running, explaining he was feeling peckish and wanted to buy two slave girls to go).

That post sounds more reasonable to me than your earlier ones about clubs and similar places. Maybe I misunderstood your earlier ones?  I think achieving a desired atmosphere is a good reason to restrict what kinds of avatars are welcome in a venue. If a club owner wants a particular kind of mature atmosphere, then I don't have any problem with that club owner banning child avs from their club. Also, if a club owner wants a childish atmosphere, I don't have any problem with that club owner banning grownup avs. On another account in the past I operated a hangout that welcomed both adult avs and child avs. Even though the land's content rating allowed sexually explicit avs, I banned them to achieve the desired atmosphere.

I think it is very useful for a landowner to let people know as early as possible what kinds of avs are allowed. If I know I'm not welcome, I'll stay away. Most child avs I know have a similar attitude. There is no need to eject us from a club if we never go to the club.

By the way, I would have gladly put on an adult skin and shape to see the dragon try to get takeout. That sounds hilarious.

 

JoshuaGibson

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Joshhua, somehow I feel the person you were speaking to was stating that with a bit of tongue-in-cheek. :matte-motes-stress: This thread seems the equiv of me saying, "Okay guys, let's get a geneva convention and ban LED lighted floggers, because they're TACKY," and then someone taking what I said seriously to a local forum talking about how I want to down the free market economy. 

 

If they weren't joking, if they truly thought that anybody using a child avatar must be a criminal (or anyone particpating with a child avatar, for that matter), then you may assume there is deep seated issue they have psychologically with the presence of children in any adult oriented media.

 

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

Maybe the guy himself is a pediophile and wants to blame the targets of his sickness for tempting him,  much like a rapist will blame a woman was for being raped if they wear anything even slightly revealing.

Alternatively the person with the strong views on banning child avis from secondlife might have been abused as a child and has some how come to terms with that by denying the child in themselves and can no longer imagine anyone gaining anything healthy from playing a child avi.

They would still be wrong, but they could be intelligent and otherwise normal person holding their views (however wrongly) for their own personal reasons.

 


As far as child avatars in general, while most of them are not involved with sex, there have been cases of pediophilia in SL that received a lot of publicity.  I've even run into a few myself and immediately reported them.  But it is more of a case of a few bad apples spoiling the basket.

A lot of people that are disturbed by child avatars in adult oriented venues like bars and nightclubs, regardless of rating, even though they know the people behind the avi is an adult.  That's because children are not allowed in these places in RL and some of the kid avi's insist on acting like kids and talking baby talk etc.and a lot of patrons of all species that do complain to the owner and staff. There is really is no reason the person can't change to an adult avatar if they wish to go to a bar or nightclub, even if the sim is not rated Adult and there is no sex involved.  I wouldn't go to a child only venue as an adult or any other venue that caters to one particular type of avatar.  I either don't go or change my avatar.  


 Personally I find the baby talking toddler avis creepy regardless of the venue. Not in a sexual sense more in a Stewie Griffin, Childs Play,

kind of way, the avis look like grotesques to me, better reserved for halloween parties than imagining their is anything cute about them, but each to their own.
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Child Av = RL criminal ?

Bit of a grey area ..and not in the fuzzy avatar sense so to speak.

First thing to make clear.. married parent of 3 boys, fairly conservative , normal non-quirky sex life (if you consider waking up at 4 AM and nuzzling the beloved on a work night for some play being the only quirkiness)

But to the more serious tone of the discussion....

While having a child AV doesn't make it a crime...  acting as one and engaging in cyber play of a more adult nature... may well be considered a crime in some countries.

I think the rule of thumb for anything in SL will be

1. Is everybody consenting ( have to say yes ..as two individuals (+) have engaged, assuming both to be adults)

2. Does it involve anyone non-consenting ie: other patrons, bystanders... assume no.. therefore no one else is affected

 

As unpalatable as something is in Real Life.. the distinction has to be made between Real Life..and the virtual world.

Whether it be battlefield killing, mob murder, drug dealing , illegal sex acts (where does one stop) .. what may be considered a crime in the Real World..does it translate to the Virtual ?

Suppose the question really is..  is the person being the Child AV the crime...or the person that "meets up "with the child AV AND involved in something a little less savoury the criminal...?

I have a few friends that are "parents" to SL children.. and they have a wow of a time doing family things on SL. For the child AV's I asked "why the child AV ? "" ..the reason is escape back to a time they loved... or to create an alternate for a time they missed out on. Fair call and what LL probably the kind of thing they had in mind when all this started.

I do agree however .. there is a time and place for a child AV (any AV for that matter ) ..and an adult nightclub or sexual gathering isn't the place for a child so logically the rule of thumb number 2 comes into play.

But banning all child AV's is assuming everything is unsavoury, and sadly a sign of the times I suppose.. and maybe the reason for the lashing out by someone goes a little deeper.

 

( Side note..still would have loved to have seen that dragon getting take away )

 

 

 

 

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:

Nobody has said its a good thing to go into a sex club, when being a childavatar. The whole thread here is about something totally different, but I guess you didn't bother to even read the OP.

As for your general opinion: I disagree, expect for the sexclubs. Behind those avatars are still adult users, who should be able to go to some musicclub and listen to their favorite singer or DJ.

 However, rightly or wrongly, the presence of child avatars on an adult sim sometimes worries owners about where the child avatars might end up, and cand also make other visitors and staff uncomfortable.    That's the reason many adult sims ban child avatars altogether -- after all, if you want to go to a club to listen to your favourite singer, it's surely no great hardship to do it using an adult avatar.

it's far worse. Child avatars are being used to blackmail sim owners, or try to get them banned. People make one on a throwaway account, go into an A rated sim, use the sex toys, make screenshots, and file an AR against the sim owner.

Rince and repeat witrh a number of avatars and the sim owner is in serious trouble with LL.

Friend of me has experienced that who owns a number of A rated sims, and we now have a policy of banning child avatars, a policy that's announced to all incoming visitors.

LL no longer bothers us, the child avatars still try to sneak in though.

On the other end of the spectrum, there are people so completely obsessed with child avatars they have utterly insane definitions of what those may be. And that includes defining anyone under 2m tall as a child avatar, and in one case I experienced myself anyone without mesh boobs inflated to their maximum size was banned as a child avatar.

Both come from a perverted misreading of the LL guidelines for determining what a child avatar actually is.

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