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Sian2ndLife

SL and RL genders

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As a rl guy I never cared if the person on the otherside was male or female in rl.  especially  if we arent going rl. Sl is fantasty to me, I dont like turning this into rl so I say let others do what they like and if they wanna be a different gender its ok with me.

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I know that for many people it would not matter if they had pixel sex with someone of the gender that was not the avatar's gender. I, as a straight male, would not have pixel sex with a female avatar operated by a male person. A gay friend, who is familar with SL, told me that he would not have sex with a male avatar operated by a female person.

I think that a good rule would be: if you are asked what your RL gender is, either refuse to answer or answer correctly. If you are a male operating a female avatar, fine. But if you are asked, don't lie. Either refuse to answer or be correct.

I know this can't be enforced, and some people are not always honest in matters of sex. After all, in RL how many married men have told female dates that they are single?

That is one reason I do not have sex in SL.

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RobertThorp wrote:

I know that for many people it would not matter if they had pixel sex with someone of the gender that was not the avatar's gender. I, as a straight male, would not have pixel sex with a female avatar operated by a male person. A gay friend, who is familar with SL, told me that he would not have sex with a male avatar operated by a female person.

I think that a good rule would be: if you are asked what your RL gender is, either refuse to answer or answer correctly. If you are a male operating a female avatar, fine. But if you are asked, don't lie. Either refuse to answer or be correct.

I know this can't be enforced, and some people are not always honest in matters of sex. After all, in RL how many married men have told female dates that they are single?

That is one reason I do not have sex in SL.

Thats kind of a weird argumentation, which almost leads me to think many men here are homophobic. I mean...would you have sex with ANY woman in RL just because you are straight? Probably not. So....like your sexual orientation how a woman looks like is part of who you chose as a potentional sex partner.

So if gender and apperance are equal parts which form your decision if someone is attractive and good for sex...then why don't you also ask for pictures (full body of course!) or why don't you ask if she shaved? Thats absolutly the same stuff as asking for gender. You may say no....but I say, well those are both things that matter when it comes to RL sex and in SL you are not going to feel if the person behind the avatar has breasts or not and neither are you going to see how the person looks like and so on.

Its a good choice that if you notice you can't deal with it not to have sex in SL. But many men just keep bothering with this verification nonesense.

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And actually, now that I think about it, I believe that asking is a violation of the TOS. You are soliciting disclosure of RL information. Just a thought.

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Bobbie Faulds wrote:

And actually, now that I think about it, I believe that asking is a violation of the TOS. You are soliciting disclosure of RL information. Just a thought.

You can ask any one any thing at any time to your hearts content.

What you can't do is "disclose."

There are no prohibitions against asking people for information.

 

(And yes, I know people like to quote one phrase from the teen safety guidlines about this, but that is written specifically to teens about a very specific situation.)

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Bobbie Faulds wrote:

And actually, now that I think about it, I believe that asking is a violation of the TOS. You are soliciting disclosure of RL information. Just a thought.

You can ask any one any thing at any time to your hearts content.

What you can't do is "disclose."

There are no prohibitions against asking people for information.

 

(
And y
es, I know people like to quote one phrase from the teen safety guidlines about this, but that is written specifically to teens about a very specific situation.)

As my Father was fond of saying...

"Ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies".

There is nothing in the TOS proscribing the asking of questions. Nor is there anything in it requiring answers to be truthful.

Life is in balance.

;-)

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Perrie and Madelaine,

Thanks for the replies to Bobbie Faulds. I have read the TOS and I am sure that if there was any prohibition against asking, I would have remembered. And I don't remember any. I will read the TOS tonight, but I think that the disclosing prohibition is against disclosure of other peoples RL information. I believe that anyone is allowed to disclose their own gender or other information, but not someone else's. I will check the TOS tonight.

 

Syo,

There is nothing homophobic about wanting to have pixel sex, or real sex, with people of the opposite gender, just as there is nothing wrong with wanting the same with people the same gender as oneself. Yes, how a person looks may be part of a choice of sex partner, but, for many of us, that is only a small part when compared with gender. That is true for most straight and gay men and women.

I have no desire to have "pixel sex". But obviously some people do. Some don't care what gender is behind the avatar, or even if it is a human or bot. But others do care. That is why I still say: if you care, ask. If you are asked, either refuse to answer or be truthful. And if you really, strongly care, don't have sex on SL unless you really know (e.g.. know the other person in RL).

Bob

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@Robert


I feel different that. Maybe that comes from my experiance as someone with a female avatar. In RL of course, gender matters because it defines our sexual orientation and influences the apperance of a person. But what does gender matter in a virtual world? As much as the look of a person, because you can't see it, you can't taste it, you can't smell it, you can't hear it (unless you are into voice sex, but thats a different case).

How much impact has the real gender of a person on the pixel sex experiance with him or her?

Imagine being at a club, you listen to the music and watch the avatars around you. Suddenly your view gets catched by a blond lady wearing a short black dress and some matching classic high heels. She doesn't seem to have any friends with her and so you deciede to send her an IM. You both have a funny and nice chat together and after the DJ leaves the stage you like to take her with you. You have already seen how great she can emote, when you danced close to her....

At which point is worrying about anything RL related a topic or a necessary thing? (I'm aware you are not into pixelsex, but maybe you can explain that view point).

My only explaination so far was, that it is fear. There must be fear suddenly kickin in and all the guy can think of is...."What if she is a DUDE?!" Are they afraid that they could get secretly be turned on by another man, even if they just have virtual sex with a female avatar, whose operator just use to have something more in their pants?

I'm adressing this mostly of straight men, because they seem to be the group with the biggest problem when gender is questionable.

Sure, I can definitly understand if its a major turn off when you notice halfway that "she" is a guy...because that guy is just horrible doing decent roleplay. But on the other hand...bad emoting and roleplayskills can be awkward and a turn off in every situation.....

Ok back to topic: Now the second part is, that apperance is in fact a major factor when it comes to sex. That starts with mother nature who wants its creatures to only mate with healty and potentional good partners and therefore sets certain tendencies and continues with personal likes/dislikes and ends with the standarts of society on what is attractive. And thinking about who might sit behind the screen could be a major turn off as well.

Just imagine behind that female avatar is a 55 year old housewife, with a damaged body from 3 pregnancies and a skin thats reminds her daily for her path as a longtime smoker. And she sits in her granny underwear infront of her laptop, while typing you one flirty IM after another.

 

In the beginning I said my view might be influenced by what I notice as a female avatar. Should I tell you something? The guys worry more about my gender than about the possibility that I could be the age of their mother and probably look worse than her. As a female avatar your gender is always in question as soon as you say no to pictures or voice.

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Nothing that Robert said is actually homophobic in any way, shape or form.  Just because he prefers to have intimate relations with someone of the opposite sex, whether in RL or in a virtual world, and not someone just playing the roll of someone of the opposite sex, does not make him the least bit homophobic.  As a homosexual person, I'd much rather hold the homophobic card for those whom actually deserve it.

I have no issue with someone voicing their preference of RL gender behind those whom's pixels they choose to bump, though I'm quite certain that whatever sort of verification upon which they try to rely can be faked (I've seen it done before, quite effectively... more than once).

I'm more deferential to your way of thinking on the matter... it makes little difference to me the RL sex of someone with whom I might get involved in SL.  That being said, if they are of the sex that I'm not attracted, I'd rather never know... because that would just spoil the illusion.  Likewise, this does not make me heterophobic in the least.

...Dres

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Syo and Dresden,

While she would not be my choice, I would rather have RL or SL sex with an ugly old woman than with a man. And I know some people (both men and women) who would rather have RL or SL sex with a physically unattractive man than with a good looking woman.

I don't have a good enough imagination. The difference between SL and games not connected with the internet (Sims, etc.) is that there is a real life person behind the avatar, and I am doing whatever with that person.

That is a big reason why I don't have sex in SL. The gender, like the looks, cannot be verified. There are methods of verifying things about other people, but not on SL. (They work only on very specilized smaller forums, where the owner or operator of the forum cooperates)

Some people like to watch pixels on a screen having sex, not thinking of the person behind the pixels. I have no problem with that; but it is not me.

Bob

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Its your SL and you can be what you wish to be. 

 

The only thing I would advise is not to lead a person on. If you get into an SL relationship and the person thinks you are the opposite sex and things start to get serious. Be honest. Yes this is a virtual world but behind the avatars are real life people with real life feelings and even if you wish to keep the relationship online, they may have dreams of going RL and invest a lot of themselves into the relationship and when they find out the truth, well, they would be very hurt. No one wishes that on another. 

 

I did know someone who was a male driving a female, he married what he thought was another female.. Turns out they were both straight males cheating on their RL wives. Obviously when the truth was uncovered there were a lot of hurt feelings all around. 

 

So just keep that in mind when embarking on any romantic type of SL relationship. So its best to be honest and up front with your RL gender. 

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Lillyanna,

We are in extreme agreement. Yes, this is a virtual world, but it is too easy for some people to forget that behind an avatar is a real human being. As for me, what ever my avatar is doing with another avatar, I am doing with another person. That is why I believe in honesty if asked about RL.

I don't engage in any activity in SL where gender (or looks, or age) matters. I only know one female in RL who is on SL. But I work with her and know her husband, so any romantic activity is out of the question. I do enjoy listening to music and discussing politics, law (my profession), and life in general with others. But gender, looks, and age don't matter in these activities.

Bob

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RobertThorp wrote:

But [RL] gender, [RL] looks, and [RL] age don't matter in these activities.

Why do you think they matter for SL-only sex and/or relationships?

People want to imagine their relationships will last forever, and this clear delusion continues to be entertained by the mainstream. Truth is clearly not a pre-requisite in relationships, it tends to be the lies that keep people together.

Just people pushin' high-ground morality here. My lies are OK, yours are not OK because they make me uncomfortable.

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I agree with Lillanna and Bob. I am a lesbian. I sometimes hang out with other women in clubs, but I do not have sex in SL. I know that some of the "lesbian women" in SL are really straight men. To me, I would not want to have a "romantic moment" with what I thought was a woman but was really a man playing a woman. I, like others, believe that what ever my avatar is doing with another avatar, I am doing with the person operating it. Obviously, others feel differently. But the best policy is to refuse to answer a question or to be honest.

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I really don't understand what the issue is. Unless you intend to take it RL, what the gender of the person you are pixel bumoing is shouldn't matter. I doesn't matter to me. I have been with both RL men and women who had female Avatars. Both were enjoyable. Would i have sex with a male in RL .. no. But SL isn't RL.

       Most people would never do what they do in SL in RL. Which is why i don't see what RL gender matters.

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@Dresden: I'd never said that Robert is homophobic, I just asked him because he seem to be good to explain why so many men seem to act so strange, when it comes to female avatars. Because the only thing that came to my mind was that its some sort of fear or disgust.


And maybe I didn't made it clear enough, but I think its good, if someone can't let themself fall into a fantasy that he/she doesn't seek out sex in SL. But many don't do that. I literally that people who assumed I must be a man, when I refused to voice with them and yesterday someone stoped talking to me, after I said no, when asked about pictures.

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Syo Emerald wrote:

@Dresden: I'd never said that Robert is homophobic

Perhaps I was mistaken, but, when you said, "Thats kind of a weird argumentation, which almost leads me to think many men here are homophobic," it seemed to me that you were including Robert amongst those many men... especially since it was his argumentation to which you were referring.

 


Syo Emerald also wrote:

yesterday someone stoped talking to me, after I said no, when asked about pictures.

You say this as if it's a bad thing... certainly, someone who has that sort of reaction isn't worth holding a conversation with in the first place.

...Dres

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:

@Dresden: I'd never said that Robert is homophobic

Perhaps I was mistaken, but, when you said, "Thats kind of a weird argumentation, which almost leads me to think many men here are homophobic," it seemed to me that you were including Robert amongst those many men... especially since it was his argumentation to which you were referring.

 

Syo Emerald also wrote:

yesterday someone stoped talking to me, after I said no, when asked about pictures.

You say this as if it's a bad thing... certainly, someone who has that sort of reaction isn't worth holding a conversation with in the first place.

...Dres

Well, Robert sounded like the whole idea of sex in SL isn't really appealing to him. And he seems to be very aware of this fact and the reason behind it, which lead to him not seeking or wanting it. And thats totally fine and doesn't sound homophobic to me at all, because there are a lot people who can't really get something out of this or of any other non-direct stimulation.

But then there are a lot guys in SL that go a way more confusing way, which is what sometimes appears to me as kind of homophobic. I may be wrong, but thats a point I hope to understand better by taking part in this discussion.

So the argumentation rotates basically around the fearfull "But what is if there is a guy behind that avatar?!". I'll say that is kind of a pointless argument, because the men could also say "But what is if she is ugly?!". Both are things that, as I tried to explain, are very basic for attraction and the selection of a potentional mate. To me already close to equal, because the gender alone says nearly nothing about how attractive I find a person or if I could think about them in a sexual way. Both work hand in hand and both is not visibil or just very hard to check in SL.

While the apperance of the person behind the screen seems to not worry those guys, the gender of course does and that to sometimes crazy extremes. And yet, they seek SL sex instead of going on RL related sites or dateing in RL. I wonder why....and my conclusion so far was, that they sure like fantasizes about things, but can't get rid of an inner fear that they might get turned on by a male person, even if it happens inside a virtual world and inside some semi-roleplay setting. As the sheer posibility would be the most horrible and disgusting thing they could imagine.

 

And of course, I wasn't sad that he stopped talking after I said no. At least he didn't started to bug me and kept asking or blameing me. Or he was just from the NSA, trying to get some better data (in reference to the threads and the study we had here in the past days) :matte-motes-big-grin-wink:

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I have no idea if your still reading replies to your topic or not Sian2ndLife.  

 

But, here's my 2-cents on Genders.

Second life is about being 'whatever' you want.  Be it a female, male,.. dragon.... mouse... robot.. or just some floating tenticle blob thing.

Its a game.  Meant to be played as you want to play it.  Granted, SL goes a bit 'beyond' beeing meerly a game with the Human interaction in it that we all know and love.  Meeting people.. enteracting with people.. going to clubs.. finding people we like, finding people we hate... all of that good stuff.

But at its 'core'.. is still a virtual world. Where people create avatars 'they' want.

Back in the Day... you had no idea who was behind the avatar, unless they told you.  There was no 'voice' in-game for people to outright 'demand' that you use to verify your RL gender. (which quite a few asshats do in todays SL for some reason).  Back then, you had the Avatar you saw infrunt of you, and a giant ? in place of the RL persone behind the Avatar.

And you know what?... I was personally perfectly happy with that.

Ever since Day 1, i have treated SL as it is... a Virtual World.. a 'second life'.. Were i could be who or what i wanted, and so could everyone else.  I treated people based on what i SAW on the screen, Not what i could have tried to pry out of them from RL ( or 'first life' ).  If i saw a girl infrunt of me, i treated them as a girl. If i saw a male.. i treated them as a male.. If i saw a floating, tenticle coverd, blob..... i either tried to shoot it, or ran away screaming =P

It wasnt untill 'voice' was put into SL that people suddenly started outright 'demanding' that everyone get on Voice to 'prove' they were female (notcie you NEVER seem to hear about guys being told to get on voice to 'varify' they are guys, its always us Girls people make that demand of nowadays)..  Most clubs now REQUIRE that their dancers 'voice varify' themselves befor they even have a chance to try to get a job there to earn lindens or have 'fun' being a dancer (which is what i set out to do when i joined SL.. and i enjoyed every moment of the 3-4 years i spent as a dancer. Loved the enterations between me, the other dancers, and the customers/clients.).

To some, 'voice' has given them a free reign to 'demand' RL information/confirmation from avatars they meet.  And i honestly think thats total BS.. SL is still SL...  a 'second life' virtual world.  Even with Voice added into the game.. i STILL treet people by what i SEE, not by what i might hear, or what they might tell me.

As to me, that is the core 'spirit' of SL... its not some game of 'find out if she's a guy or not befor you say hello!'. Is a Virtual world in which you can be what you want, and enteract with other people being what they want.  I actually know a few guys who play as Female avatars in SL... does it bother me?.. no.  Why should it?  Its the AVATAR i play with, not them. I treat the one i actually know in RL one way 'IN' RL... and i treat 'her' completely different in SL.  Because thats the way I feel SL is sapose to be done.

Granted, quite a few people im sure will dissagree.. the ones who 'demand' people get on Voice and such.

 

Honestly, Sian2ndLife. The only real 'answer' to your question, outside of us giving you our own openions.. is what YOU beleive SL is.

It is a Virtual world that 'needs' to be the exact same as your RL (in which case.. honstely.. why play it?)... or is it a Virtual World were people can 'act' the way they might want, even if that involves them being a female avi instead of a male.. yet having 'fun' in a Virtual World that is Seperate from their RL.

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Yes, SL is a virtual world. If your avatar is a rabbit, robot, or medieval knight, I understand that it is not really who you are.  But sex is different. One thing to keep in mind when on SL is that the avatar is only a bunch of pixels and is fake, but the person operating that avatar is a real person.  I think it was Bob who said it best. “what ever my avatar is doing with another avatar, I am doing with another person”.

A number of years ago I had a sexual relationship on SL (I had a slightly different name, went off of SL, then came back with my current name).  I knew the guy I was involved with in RL, and was having a relationship with him in RL.  We have since broken up and he is no longer on SL.

I am one of those who would not enjoy sex on SL unless I knew that I was with a male, not a woman with a male avatar. I think of the avatar as the person behind the avatar, so having SL sex with a woman would be the same as having RL sex with a woman. Not for I will do. A lesbian friend of mine who is familiar with SL (but not on it) told me that she would fear that the female avatar was really a male and would be turned off. So, I do not have sex on SL unless I know the guy on RL.  There is no way to verify gender, and people lie. In RL they lie about marital status (why I broke up, in RL and SL, with the first guy, so some would lie about gender on SL. My current “main squeeze” does not get on SL, so I do not participate in sex on SL.

I know that other people feel different.  However, that is how I am.  I think that if you are asked about your gender is a situation where it matters to the other person, you should either not say or be honest.

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I am the same in RL as in SL. I not in SL to find love. I have no reason to pretend I am something else.SL for me is a way to exchange creative ideas. What others do with SL is there decision and not for me to make judgments or ask questions because I curious, simply put, it non of my business.

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I am not sure what you miss understood in my statement, if you would kindly read it again then I am sure you will be enlightened. It was clear in its ethos. Why you need to write ten paragraphs when two would do is beyond me.Maybe it is a westernized thing to talk a lot when a few chosen words would be sufficient.

ADDED: I read what you said many times and I still see no relevance in your post. It is as tho you read and see something different.

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Marybeth,

You really aren't supposed to put links to other websites in your posts. I'm pretty sure I said that before.

Spamming, Solicitation and Advertising: Spamming is not allowed. This includes aggressive self-promotion. No advertising or promotion of specific Second Life merchants, Marketplace listings, products, or services, unless the forum area is specifically for the buying or selling of Second Life products or services, for example, a “for sale” or “wanted” forum. Do not reference other websites offering any product or service.

 

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Marybeth Cooperstone wrote:

It should be obvious from this and many other discussions that there are two ways of thinking about SL. Some people are firmly set on one or the other; but many people are in between or go either way.

They are, on one end, the Role Player. They typically have avatars that are not like themselves, perhaps extremely different (medieval knight, robot, animal, etc.) Sometimes they look human but are a different gender their RL. Some role-playing may involve having romantic relationships, playing a role different from their own. These people typically think of their and other avatars as cartoon characters, groups of pixels, etc.

Untill they die or are hurt.. Then they react as if they are real.

On the other end, those who are not roleplaying but are using SL as an extension of themselves. Perhaps their personal situation does not allow certain activity (e.g. physical limitations prevent certain sports or other activities, place of residence prevents them from going to nightclubs, etc.). These people think of their avatars as themselves, and think of other avatars as representing real human beings with feelings and emotions.

Some platorms (I hate to call them "games") (warcraft, Ever Jane, etc.)  are only RP. Others (specilized forums, etc.) are on extensions of the user. SL is both.

Both are valid. The problem is when they mix. If I meet an avatar that is an animal, robot, knight, etc. I know that the person operating it is an RPer. But if the avatar looks and acts like a normal person in the 21st century, I have no way of knowing.

What?!? So, just because I choose to be non human in SL I am automatically a RPer? Wow, do you look at SL in black and white.

I have no interest in SL sex. I am married in RL, and don’t have any need for other romantic relationships. But if I did, the fact that some people are not honest and there is no way to verify gender would keep me from participating unless I knew the other person in RL.

If you are not role playing but in a situation where gender matters, such as a romantic relationship or intimate encounter, don’t assume that the avatar is the same as the person behind it. If you need to know, ask. But don’t be surprised or upset if the other person refuses to answer. Please understand that many people on SL are roleplaying and are interacting with your avatar, not you.

If you are roleplaying and are not the gender of your avatar, either refuse to say what gender you are or tell and be honest. Don’t lie. Please understand that many people on SL are not roleplaying and are interacting with you, not just your avatar.

I think you are confusing RP with immersion.

Just because someone is not exactly the same as their RL self does NOT make them an RPer. You think the furry community is a bunch of RPers? What about the Goreans, BD/SM people, or anyone else that explores their wilder side? Are they all RPers? Technically, everyone in SL is an RPer. None of us look and act 100% like we do in RL.

Marybeth


 

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