arton Rotaru Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Project_FittedMesh/3.6.11.283899http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Rigging_Fitted_Mesh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Foil Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Why can't we have both the Mesh Deformer and Collision Bones/Liquid Mesh? If LL doesn't want to maintain the Mesh Deformer then let the third party viewers do it even if it is not apart of the default viewer. By the way we must have been writing our posts at the same time. I didn't see your post Arton till after I clicked the Post button. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Choice of technology to prevent incompatabilities. They're choosing what is the superior choice. I've worked with deformer technology before in Poser - its a nasty piece of work designed to overcome flaws when an item fails to follow the 'morphing options' of the underlying mesh. It tends to fail at complex points - resulting in triangles poking out. And it never deforms perfectly. You fall back to deformers when the better choices fail. They are adding in the better choice: new bones for a mesh to follow. IF mesh model makers follow the new bones - a deformer will be much less needed. But to get people on board with following them, they need to stabalize. Meaning this: "At this time, the new skeleton should be considered provisional and subject to change; we do not yet recommend selling or buying garments rigged to it." Has got to change. Which will likely occur once it goes out of testing. At this stage, they probably want leadin model makers to start uploading test objects and telling them the results. Lest you think that's a waste of time for those model makers - the ones who leadin will be most likely to have product ready when the thing is finished, and be early to dominate in the coming 'meshtopia'. - Just consider how major a brand 'coldlogic' is, from being the first big coop team to push the standard sizes and have a good sized inventory of products out long before any competition did. They have yet to lose dominance in mesh fashion. If somebody beats them to having this stuff ready though, that someone will own SL fashion for the next year or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Foil Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 I have no idea how well the mesh deformer in Poser works. I do however know that he Mesh Deformer in SL and other grids works very very well. I have also worked with Collision bones extensively. The superior system in SL is the Mesh Deformer. Yes things could be done to improve the Collision Bones method such as moving the existing Collision bones so that they are not offset from the normal bones. Either that or add more collision bones than they are proposing if LL doesn't want to move the current offset collision bones. The Mesh Deformer is so much easier for content creators to use. Any content already rigged to the standard skeleton can easily be uploaded again with just a few settings set in the upload window to make it work with the Mesh Deformer. So much less work and the customer gets a superior result. Again why can't we have both? The Mesh Deformer has already been paid for and tested for two years. Just let it be available in third party viewers if LL doesn't want to maintain it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 A deformer is a deformer. They will all suffer like problems. Its an inelligant solution as well - that I suspect is very resource intensive by having to compare surface geometry of one model against another. Better bones and rigging avoids that by narrowing it to key points along the figure. Implementing both would create a double system resource nightmare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innula Zenovka Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 I am told (though am not in a position to verify this) that the Liquid Mesh system means that mesh clothes will be able to jiggle along with avatar physics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Foil Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Not all deformers are created equal nor does implementing both have to be a system resource nightmare. We always had collision bones before the Mesh Deformer. The Mesh Deformer works right now along side the Collision Bones that already exist and has proven not to be a system resource nightmare. Now if you are talking about LL having to maintain the Mesh Deformer I already came up with a solution that would not requite LL but a few man hours a year to maintain it. Let the third party developers maintain it. With the amount of grass roots support for the Mesh Deformer by residents I doubt it would any problem for the third party viewer developers to get volunteers to maintain the Mesh Deformer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 My experience of the existing BELLY collision bone is that it doesn't work very well at all. It's not beyond scope that i'm not doing it very well either but my level of interest in things SL is pretty low right now anyway. I'll have another go one day when I can muster enough enthusiasm to mess about in this pit of mis-management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yabusaka Loon Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Hmm, so I downloaded "Fitted Mesh Skeleton.zip" and found that the legs of female mesh model are not completely symmetric. Does anyone have fixed ver. of skinned female mesh? Male mesh seems ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandora Wrigglesworth Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Fantastic! I've been using collision bones in my rigging for a while now but I feel much better now that it is officially sanctioned. The new bones will be very helpful, especially the PEC bones, as support for breast size was one of the worst limitations of collision bone rigging, given the wide range of variation in female avatars. It would be nice to have bones for the eyes, too. Right now, the regular eye bones don't change size when the avatar shape settings determine larger eyes. So having a way to actually match the size of the eyes would be helpful when rigging a custom avatar head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandora Wrigglesworth Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Sassy Romano wrote: My experience of the existing BELLY collision bone is that it doesn't work very well at all. It's not beyond scope that i'm not doing it very well either but my level of interest in things SL is pretty low right now anyway. I'll have another go one day when I can muster enough enthusiasm to mess about in this pit of mis-management. My experience with the BELLY bone, as with all of the collision bones, is that it works better than other options for the same effect. For the BELLY bone in particular, the key is to use a very smooth bone blend and try to use it mainly on clothing that fully encompasses the belly area. It doesn't work very well with a midriff but it works perfectly well with a long sweater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Pandora Wrigglesworth wrote: It doesn't work very well with a midriff but it works perfectly well with a long sweater. Exactly and i've suddenly lost even the little bit of enthusiasm I had left here. Nothing to do with your post but there are far more things that need handling properly than long sweaters, long coats etc. Doesn't bode well for jeans, shorts and skirts or maybe i'm still crap at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaia Clary Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 For those who use Avastar: I just added a testversion with the new collision volumes. its in your download folders. enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coby Foden Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Innula Zenovka wrote: I am told (though am not in a position to verify this) that the Liquid Mesh system means that mesh clothes will be able to jiggle along with avatar physics. Yes. This link verifies it: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Rigging_Fitted_Mesh Collision bones added with Fitted Mesh: BUTT * LEFT_PEC * RIGHT_PEC * LEFT_HANDLE RIGHT_HANDLE * Note: BUTT, LEFT_PEC, and RIGHT_PEC are affected by avatar physics" [unquote] So, in Fitted Mesh the clothes at butt and breast areas will be affected by avatar physics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrealia Anatine Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Does anyone happen to know what version of Maya we are supposed to be able to use with the maya set ups LL provided? I'm using 2012 and when I try to open the scene its just empty? I can open the fbx, but, there are some issues there too- for example the only thing listed in the Outliner is the body mesh.. the c bones are there in the scene, and it appears that I can rig to it, but I'm not seeing the normal skeleton at all. I also can't weight paint even tho both the skeleton bones and the cbones are visable in the weight paint tool. Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hada Sabra Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Maya 2014 works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Kozlov Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Wow, that was fast! u iz awezome Gaia Clary wrote: For those who use Avastar: I just added a testversion with the new collision volumes. its in your download folders. enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandora Wrigglesworth Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Sassy Romano wrote: Pandora Wrigglesworth wrote: It doesn't work very well with a midriff but it works perfectly well with a long sweater. Exactly and i've suddenly lost even the little bit of enthusiasm I had left here. Nothing to do with your post but there are far more things that need handling properly than long sweaters, long coats etc. Doesn't bode well for jeans, shorts and skirts or maybe i'm still crap at it. Oh, I agree. Collision rigging is only useful for some projects and not for others. The same is true for the deformer approach, which would be great for a form-fitting midriff but completely mangles high heeled shoes. There is NO possible single approach that could fit every possible project so it's good to have more than one tool in the toolbox. That's why I think we need both collision rigging AND the deformer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 You know, a part of me is happy, but mostly, I just annoyed. Why now? Why no word before hand? Another big secret? Instead they lets us rant on and on and on about it. Then, 1 day they pop up and say look what we did. Seriously, I want 5 lindens to come to my sim so I can just use them for target practice for an hour. That would seriously make me feel better. 2 years to make a decision. It's fricken nutty. I really want to see what Gaia says, and how this relates to AVASTAR. I not going near collision bones until it is working in Avastar. It would just be a waste of time. I got better things to do in the mean time. Really, I feel sorry for the Avastar team, as after they spent all this time perfect it, now they have to change it again. If LL was smart, they would implement new actual bones to the skeleton now, while the avatar is in flux. No, they likely won't. They'll wait until Avastar adds this, and then makes them redo the plugin again when they finally decide that it is important enough, even though they could literally implement new bones over night. Sorry, I'm cranky today. Yippie, LL wasted 2 years cause it takes so long to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Gaia Clary wrote: For those who use Avastar: I just added a testversion with the new collision volumes. its in your download folders. enjoy Damn, you are fast! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Kozlov Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Medhue Simoni wrote: You know, a part of me is happy, but mostly, I just annoyed. Why now? Why no word before hand? Another big secret? Instead they lets us rant on and on and on about it. Then, 1 day they pop up and say look what we did. Seriously, I want 5 lindens to come to my sim so I can just use them for target practice for an hour. That would seriously make me feel better. 2 years to make a decision. It's fricken nutty. I really want to see what Gaia says, and how this relates to AVASTAR. I not going near collision bones until it is working in Avastar. It would just be a waste of time. I got better things to do in the mean time. Really, I feel sorry for the Avastar team, as after they spent all this time perfect it, now they have to change it again. If LL was smart, they would implement new actual bones to the skeleton now, while the avatar is in flux. No, they likely won't. They'll wait until Avastar adds this, and then makes them redo the plugin again when they finally decide that it is important enough, even though they could literally implement new bones over night. Sorry, I'm cranky today. Yippie, LL wasted 2 years cause it takes so long to think. we now got something official and effective, finaly! i see only reasons to rejoice 2years was long for sure, they should have released mesh with this already done but, wasted? theres always learning happening... beside, it's not like we suffered much of it, just look at the mesh clothes / avs market, its big and healthy Collision bones been in Avastar forever, there was even a tutorial showing how to rig to them http://blog.machinimatrix.org/avastar/reference/use-of-collision-bones/ All the Avastar team had to do now is add the 4 new bones to it ( and already did! lightning fast! ) there is no worry about wasting time, specialy now Many brands used that technique already (Type Liquid Mesh in MP and see) but there was always "speculations" that LL could break the method by blocking import of this for whatever reasons, or changing the avatar eventualy, now we have confirmation of the total opposit, YAY! If you worry about wasting time, stop being annoyed no matter how many Linden you shooting or screams getting out of you, there is no time machine thats gonna pop in front of you. only stress, and dats not gewwd Smile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaia Clary Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Just to clarify: The new bones are fully integrated in our tool. Actually there is much more in this than simply adding 5 new bones to the rig. The new bones had also to be connected to our shape slider system. And of course we want that the shape sliders in blender influence the new bones in the same way as the appearance sliders do in the SL viewer. As a sidenote: I do not understand (and never understood in the past as well) why LL does not inform their customers beforehand. All what i had until yesterday was an informal note that i got about a year ago from Linden Labs. They asked us to better not give collision bone rigging out to the public because the lab could decide to break this approach at any time. That's why we declared the feature as experimental and "use on your own risk" and we never put much effort into optimizing the workflow or adding tutorials. So i am now looking at the tools again and see what we can do to improve the process of creating fitted mesh. Please feel very much invited to send me your ideas about better workflows. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Foil Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 What really saddens me about losing the Mesh Deformer are all the things Collision Bones can't do. With the Mesh Deformer we the residents of SL could have created real replacements for the default avatar ourselves. A custom mesh avatar using the Mesh Deformer hands and facial expressions work right out of the box. No extra programming or coding needed. No need to be able to upload morphs or animations. All existing animations overrides would have worked. All we will get now with the Collision Bones will be expressionless mesh avatars with stiff hands. The Mesh Deformer would make so many things possible other than just clothing. Want a different tattoo on each arm? No problem with the Mesh Deformer. Just replace the default arm with a mesh arm that connects to the body seamlessly no matter what appearance size settings are being used. Want more realistic breast that connect to the default avatar seamlessly no problem with the Mesh Deformer. Want a custom head or face that actually has expression no problem with the Mesh Deformer. Want rings and fingernails that actually move with your fingers no problem with the Mesh Deformer. None of which are possible with the Collision Bones. Never! Why not make everyone happy and let us have both Collision Bones and Mesh Deformer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaia Clary Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Could the decision to use Collision volumes imply the decision to add custom bones in the next step ? Would that possibly be superior to the mesh deformer technique ? Just guessing loud... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Gaia, my guess as to why LL have gone this route is due to a huge amount of "not invented here" towards the other deformer. The comment by Oz asking people not to respond to the JIRA because he is tired of getting emails in his inbox tends to pale into insignificance compared to the "tiredness" that creators experienced waiting 2 years while apparently treated as insignificant to LL. I bet our time spent creating multiple sizes far exceeds the amount of time that it took Oz to delete the emails from the JIRA system. Gaia, you should remember that LL has no real interest in SL and doesn't bother to communicate effectively. Just keep saying "moo" as they continue to milk the cash cow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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