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Prokofy Neva

Oh, Is This Why They Changed the TOS?

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Hi, guess what! I *knew* that SL stores data on our hard drives. Why? Because a) I look at files on my hard drive when I try to get SL to work -- i.e. using that trick of deleting settings.xml which often works b) I look at the files installing, and I see the vast array of them c) I look at that F button inworld, I'm forgetting which one now, which shows the huge stream of stuff coming into you that is going on your hard drive.

But, some stuff is only held in the browser then tossed, is it not?

And other stuff is downloaded but not as much of that used to be done, is that not the case?

So the question isn't to establish that"yes, this was how it always worked" but to determine a) if there is anything significally new and b) if this was the rationale for the TOS change, ie the need to stream other people's content right into your possession permanently.

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Well, yes, that's the point I mean.

The TOS *catching up to*.

I think most people when told "we have to have a copy of your stuff in order to stream it to other people so they can see it" can accept that. It's the functioning of the service.

But then if they say "We have to let *everybody else in the service* have copies of your stuff so they can see it and load the world faster," that's a different order of copying/giving.

It may be inevitable, and that's maybe why the TOS legalities had to catch up to the streaming realities.


And then there's this: although we know that copybot and such have all these years been able to work on the principle of the "see it, steal it" functions of the browser, and just grab stuff, the "storing the world on your hard drive so it loads faster for you" really does seem to be a new 'feature" that Linden Lab is offering. I never recall them saying that before.

 

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So Rex are you saying that the stuff that SL has always downloaded to the hard drive is just textures, but now it wil add prim, sculpties, mesh, scripts?

I thought dimensions of prims were downloaded but what do I know.

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Prokofy Neva wrote:

Once again, I point out the inherent contradiction (and inherent intellectual dishonesty) of people like Bruce Schneier (who I just heard speak and questioned in person) who believe that chat and communications can be "absolutely encrypted" from prying NSA eyes (he makes these claims for Tor, which are false, but that's another story), and the claim that DRM can't be absolutely encrypted.

 

Because obviously, the same issues of key location, MITM attacks, spoofing of ID to the server, etc. all exist in either case.


Different agendas exist.  Anything which is traversing end point to end point such as is the case for chat can be encrypted and the point is that it's encrypted while in transit to keep the content confidential from an attacker.  However, once at the end point, the session key used for that encryption will only be known to the end points, having typically been derived from a public key shared by the other party in the transfer and used with the private key of each party.  Google "PKI" for more information.

The diffierence with encrypting data for SL is that the end point, the client in this case, the viewer, MUST be able to decrypt, the keys to do this will reside in memory, memory of the PC owned by the attacker.

It's a very different scenario when you already own the hardware and can run whatever tools that you choose in order to find an encryption key, than trying to crack the encryption when all you see is the encrypted data in transit.

It's a very simple question here... "how do you secure the key?" because once the key is compromised, no matter what algorithm, no matter how many bits of "strength" is used the rest is irrelevant, it's already game over.

You drifted off about Google who have a different agenda entirely and not relevant to the challenge of securing SL cached assets.

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If this TOS change were about catching up, it would be catching up for any SL viewer, but certainly not especially for the Interest List viewer in particular. Because any SL viewer always has downloaded the data. Doesn't matter much if it stores more or less in cache.

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But did it download only textures before, and now it is downloading prims, scupties mesh data?

And if it did all that, is the difference now (see above) that it is downloading scripted objects?

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No, Google isn't irrelevant because this gets back to Bruce Schneier and the claims of Snowden re: NSA, that NSA was able to break through SSL and get into Google's cloud to clear text.

Claims of absolute encryption always seem fake to me and I also don't believe absolute encryption is advisable. But I want to tackle the argument that DRM is "impossible" but chat isn't, and it seems you are saying it's because of key exchange that wouldn't ordinarily take place with a DRM'd object like a CD sold to a customer. Except his jewel box code is his key, is it not?


Read this discussion if you are interested.

http://3dblogger.typepad.com/wired_state/2013/11/in-the-cloud-in-the-cloud-where-the-sun-never-shines.html

Isn't SL in the cloud? Or will be?

 

 

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Prokofy Neva wrote:

But did it download only textures before, and now it is downloading prims, scupties mesh data?

And if it did all that, is the difference now (see above) that it is downloading scripted objects?

It doesn't matter in regard to the TOS change, what was, is cached. This turns out to be just the thread number 3000 of copybotting. Which has also nothing to do with the TOS change.

No, my content isn't at any higher risk as it always has been, with the interest list viewer.

As Rex pointed out, scripts run on the server, streaming that data to every viewer would be a lot of unnecessary data transfer.

If you exactly want to know what has been cached in the past, and what is cached more with the interest list viewer, I would recommend you visit Adrew Lindens User Group Meeting and ask him directly. He certainly know, because he did the main work on the interest list.

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Prokofy Neva wrote:

"Must"?

 

But what if there were a massive exchange of keys of all SL users?

I don't understand what you're asking here?  Do you mean "what if everyone could encrypt the content end to end but LL not have access to it?"  If that's not the question, then there's no need for the key exchage between all users.

It wouldn't make any difference anyway, the point remains that in order to display content in the viewer, the content must yes MUST be decrypted at the viewer.  At that point it's suceptible to being copied or compromised in other ways. 

All textures have always been downloaded and sounds and animations and object data.  Script do not get downloaded since there's no purpose in doing so, scripts execute at the server.

Google still remains irrelevant here, brute forcing an SSL session key, hijacking a session etc. all are completely different scenarios to what the viewer has to do with data.  Beyond any question of a doubt, the viewer must work with decrypted data, there's no getting away from that unless there's an encryption from SL all the way to the graphics card and guess what... the key and data are still in local memory so right back to why DRM and similar can always be broken with relative ease compared to the extra effort of cracking a data stream in transit.

Edit: no, the jewel box key or anything else on a printed label is not the encryption key.

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Do you think that mocking and taunting people is the way forward for a better SL forum, better communications, or better anything?  Because, the person doing those actions in this thread, isn't Prok, it's you

 

Yes, I know and I'm almost having a bad conscience now that you've opened the drama can. All I know is that Prok drives me up the walls ... in all aspects. Her personality, her arguing style, her political views. Just about everything. Ever read Prok's blog? Cringeworthy is a tame way to describe it. Besides it doesn't really matter who knows her better, does it? This is a discussion forum, not a place for misplaced loyality or whatever conservatives understand as loyalty.

It's just as Solar wrote: Prok has a history of all bad things, so I jumped at her. Call it a preemptive strike. What's wrong about that? And it's not just me neither. In every blog and every discussion about SL Prok is used as an example for the negative sides of SL. 

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Orca Flotta wrote:

In every blog and every discussion about SL Prok is used as an example for the negative sides of SL. 

Over-exaggerate much?

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No one should be *required* to learn the mechanics of how browsers work to log in, that's ridiculous. That would be like requiring everyone who drives a car to learn the mechanics of internal combustion. That's not how normal life works, where there is division of labour and division of knowledge and expertise.

 

Where I come from an introduction into internal combustion is part of the theory lessons in driving schools. Also you're required to know how to change a flat tyre, lighbulbs, spark plugs. Nothing deep, just the simple stuff. That is how normal life works! Can't be stranded on the roadside for trivial stuff like that and call out the automobile club. Not if you don't wanna make a total ass of yourself.

I didn't understand the part about division of labour and knowledge/expertise. In order to make stuff work, i.e. driving and maintening a car, you need both.

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Orca Flotta wrote: This is a discussion forum, not a place for misplaced loyality
or whatever conservatives understand as loyalty.

 

Now those are fightin' words, lassie.  

Who are you calling a conservative?  Stand up and say that!

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Over-exaggerate much?

 

Porky, I told you 3 trillion times (at least!) that I don't over-exagerate! Never! NEVER EVER!!! :smileymad: Grrrr! :smileymad:

:smileyvery-happy::heart::smileyhappy:

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Prokofy Neva wrote:

But did it download only textures before, and now it is downloading prims, scupties mesh data?

And if it did all that, is the difference now (see above) that it is downloading scripted objects?

EVERYTHING you see on the screen is downloaded to your computer, so it can display it. Not this and that, quite literaly everything. Scripts are run on the servers, so you only get to see what behavior they show. But if it's something visual? You bet your computer already has the data, in one way or another. Your graphics card wouldn't be able to display the meshes, if it didn't know all it's data, meaning how many triangles there are and how they are arranged, and what the UV map is like, so the texture can be placed correctly.

 

The only differance now, is that the data stays on your computer a little longer so it can be re-used next time you log in. Thats all. There is no data there that hasn't passed your computer already.

If you want to copy that data, for malicious intent it doesn't matter if that data is there for 10 seconds or 10 days. It's all the same.

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Who are you calling a conservative?  Stand up and say that!

 

/me obliges and slightly lifts her ass ...

 

Hi, my name is Orca. Some of you might know me as anarcha-feminist, open software propagandist, anti-fascist, anti-captalist, socialist and some other things.

And I do herewith declare that 99% of USAmericans are fundamental arch-conservatives. Even your so-called liberals are considered far right wing in the real world.

 

/me stares angrily at the podium, sits down her bum again and waits for the bouncers to escort her out of the town hall.

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I have one quesion. Who decides which world is "real"?

 

Uh, I guess the 99.7% of the world that isn't the USA, but nevertheless suffering from it, is the "real" part.

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Prokofy Neva wrote:

So Rex are you saying that the stuff that SL has always downloaded to the hard drive is
just textures
, but now it wil add prim, sculpties, mesh, scripts?

I thought dimensions of prims were downloaded but what do I know.

Sculpties and prims were downloaded too.  Several years back I saw someone inworld demo pulling things off his hard drive, a reverse use if the UUID, with an inworld script  that then had the code, and displayed the sculpt,, prims, etc. All he had to do was "see" the things inworld, find the codes on his hard drive, feed them into a script inworld, and had the items.

 

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Prokofy Neva wrote:

It's been an axiom of Second Life that scripts are different -- they're special! Scripters don't have to worry about their content being stolen, it executes server side. Rips of scripts in SL have been far, far less common.

So now if the new feature of Project Interesting is that now scripted objects are downloaded to the hard drive, that may drive more ripping because it's a new vista opening up that was previously locked down.

It doesn't work that way, though.   The script tells the server what instructions to send your viewer about what the scripted object should do.

So if I touch, for example, a scripted door, the server will send to my computer, and to the computers of everyone else who can see the door, an instruction to make the door seem to move through 90 degrees, revealing what's behind it, and to close after 10 seconds.   

The script, though, which contains the instructions to the sim about what message to send and under what circumstances (only open and close the door if I own it, for example), remains server-side.  

Your and my PC don't receive, or need to receive, the script.  They only need to receive, and act on,  the messages the script tells the server to send.

 

 

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its good to knw that when  i visit a place it will be downloaded on my computer so it loads faster

but i wont be able to upload it and say i created that place :smileyhappy:

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Orca Flotta wrote:

Yes, I know and I'm almost having a bad conscience now that you've opened the drama can. All I know is that Prok drives me up the walls ... in all aspects. Her personality, her arguing style, her political views.

Why would you post to a thread, and to the person, that you claim drives you the wall?  I'd think you want to ignore the thread and post somewhere else.  Good grief.

 


Orca Flotta wrote:

. Ever read Prok's blog? Cringeworthy is a tame way to describe it. bout SL Prok is used as an example for the negative sides of SL. 


Sure I’ve read it.  But, none of that is relevant here.

 

 

 


Orca Flotta wrote:

Besides it doesn't really matter who knows her better, does it?


You seemed to think it mattered how well I knew her when you posed this comment to me:


Orca Flotta wrote:

NONE of which warranted a snide personal remark.

Seems you don't know the generallly feared Prok very well, Celest.

 

 


Orca Flotta wrote:

This is a discussion forum, not a place for misplaced loyality or whatever conservatives understand as loyalty.

After derailing with a personal attack, you now want to point out that this is a discussion forum? haha

 

 

Proks not a conservative.  (I'd bet money she voted for the current US president)  Also, I'm certainly not a conservative.  So what are you aiming for with your additional snide remarks?

 

 


It's just as Solar wrote:

Prok has a history of all bad things, so I jumped at her. Call it a preemptive strike. What's wrong about that? And it's not just me neither. In every blog and every discussion about SL Prok is used as an example for the negative sides of SL. 


You're absolutism statement of "all bad things".  Maybe you should go check the thread of fallacies?

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/Friday-Fun-Top-12-Logical-Fallacies/td-p/2329287

What's wrong with a preemptive strike?  That's how wars get started, and continue, needlessly.  It's also bad forum manners and against the forum posting guidelines.  (personal disputes, etc)  You behaved badly, and now you're digging a deeper hole by trying to justify it.

 

 

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