PeterGray @ LL Responds to UCCSL RE: LL TOS Concerns

Catherine Cotton · October 28, 2013

If they are confident that it will make them money, they will devote the resources to it.

ETA, and this is just meant in general here, not as a specific response to you. The SL economy may be an economy based on micro-transactions, but all those transactions add up to a lot of Real Money. How many real dollars did Rodvik say traded hands in SL? It sure was not peanuts. So I am not so fast to discount the value of SL content.

"...according to Linden CEO Rod Humble. Those users typically rack up 1.2 million virtual goods transactions per day and have accounted for $3.2 billion worth of transactions over the life of the game."

source: http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/06/20/second-life-readies-for-10th-anniversary-celebrates-a-million-a/

Dartagan Shepherd · October 28, 2013

"Everything I read coming from LL is that they want to make more money - don't creators and producers of product for LL's platforms share this interest?"

Both of us already had the ability to profit together on any of their products without these ToS changes. All they need to do is to build the tools to let us upload, price and choose where we're selling to.

This isn't a contract, this is a "trust me" document. We don't.

Storm Clarence · October 28, 2013

Magnet Homewood wrote:

... it is about being able to use your ideas and change them however they want too.

Magnet, I can really appreciate your sentiment above.

The way I look at the world is a tad different. Just thinking about the above gives me Goosebumps. I have a fair amount of work (ideas) in the open source world. I admire and respect the people and companies that have developed or changed and/or matured my work/ideas, and for the better. I also help to better my peers and collaborators work/ideas. To me life is beautiful just knowing I am able to think enough to develop new ideas and share them.

Remuneration is a big part of it: if LL gets fat so will the creators. If not directly from LL then from one of the channels they are opening. If LL moves your product to Desura, then why can't YOU move your product to Desura?

Storm Clarence · October 28, 2013

Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

This isn't a contract, this is a "trust me" document. We don't.

Wrong. The TOS is a contract. It is NOT a "trust me" document.

You are now writing with your emotions, Dartagan. You will see darkness in any re-wording of the TOS, because that is all you are looking for.

Dartagan Shepherd · October 28, 2013

I think you understood that I wasn't saying that it wasn't legally a contract. That bit is debatable in a court, if you can get past the arbitration bit. No, I'm not any more emotional now than when some other manipulative person tried to convince me that I was.

Let me bake your noodle a bit as you seem to be an open source guy.

The ToS really isn't compatible with open source now either.

Storm Clarence · October 28, 2013

Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

I think you understood that I wasn't saying that it wasn't legally a contract. That bit is debatable in a court, if you can get past the arbitration bit. No, I'm not any more emotional now than when some other manipulative person tried to convince me that I was.

Let me bake your noodle a bit as you seem to be an open source guy.

The ToS really isn't compatible with open source now either.

Now you're just boring me.

PS I wonder how many profitable mesh creators in SL send a check to Ton Roosendaal

Dartagan Shepherd · October 28, 2013

Well, sometime when you're not so bored, or perhaps if you're bored enough ... give the GPL and more restrictive licenses another read. It fails on the attribution requirements alone.

Only the looser license such as BSD may actually work.

Rex Cronon · October 28, 2013

@Storm Clarence:
-having ll act as agent sounds ok. sadly ll also wants to force and to bully people to do what ll wants, and how ll wants it:( if i am not mistaken that falls under "unfair business practices" under the california law.
-imo you should read the blog posts here and elsewhere more carefully. most people have realized by now that ll is not taking your ip away nor your copyright. ll "only" wants to exploit what u make however they like, change it in any way, for as long as they want, and without giving you any credit:(
-its very strange how ll thinks it can rework the tos without talking to us, while at the same time wanting us to stop talking about the tos! if ll insists on doing this, than the logical outcome will be a new tos that doesn't address our concerns and worries:(
-a lot of people want to make money, sadly the current tos due to being so poorly written(on purpose or not) is very slanted towards giving to ll more power over us and our creations while leaving us holding the short end of the stick:(
-i see nothing wrong about watermarking your images/pictures, sadly the new tos gives ll the power to remove them. you can also obfuscate lsl code. i have a program that obfuscates lsl code and each day i lean more and more towards making it free to use and asking only for donations.
p.s.
-if you don't understand the differences between the current version of the tos and the previous ones, than maybe you shouldn't try so hard to make it look like what this tos says is something very normal.
-btw. would u and others stop saying that if people don't like it then they shouldn't press the "I Agree" button. not agreeing doesn't solve anything. not only is the tos vague to what happens if u don't agree, but there are already lots of people that pressed that button due to various reasons(like being denied access to whats theirs). the tos doesn't say what happens to whatever you are selling on the mp(who gets the money?), it doesn't say what happens with the $L in your account, it doesn't say what happens if you are in a contractual agreement with another avatar and because u can't fulfill it you get sued by that avatar in rl especially if you were already paid:(

Medhue Simoni · October 28, 2013

Storm Clarence wrote:

Magnet Homewood wrote:

... it is about being able to use your ideas and change them however they want too.

Magnet, I can really appreciate your sentiment above.

The way I look at the world is a tad different. Just thinking about the above gives me Goosebumps. I have a fair amount of work (ideas) in the open source world. I admire and respect the people and companies that have developed or changed and/or matured my work/ideas, and for the better. I also help to better my peers and collaborators work/ideas. To me life is beautiful just knowing I am able to think enough to develop new ideas and share them.

Remuneration is a big part of it: if LL gets fat so will the creators. If not directly from LL then from one of the channels they are opening. If LL moves your product to Desura, then why can't YOU move your product to Desura?

Now here, I can kind of agree with you. IMHO, Ideas are free, and should be traded freely. Having ideas is awesome, but they accomplish nothing until some1 does something with those ideas. Personally, I have hundreds of ideas a day, and give them out freely to any1 I think can actually do something with them. Even the ideas I might want to keep to myself, there is no point in my keeping it from some other person, as we can all profit from it, if it truly is a good idea.

I just had to deal with this "MY idea" attitude the other day, and I'm pretty offended by it all. A fellow creator, which wouldn't even know how to make a mesh if I hadn't pushed him, told me I'm stealing his idea. WTF! What idea? The reality is, I've been talking about making animated videos for years now, and working toward that goal. He shows me a video of people making Minecraft animated videos, and I thought, that would be a great tool for me to learn to render in Blender. SO, I made an animated Minecraft video to learn more features in Blender for my future projects. Now, all of a sudden I stole his Idea. His idea was to have me animate his project. Because he saw others doing this first, now I can't? It's ridiculous. Saying you have an idea and yet knowing nothing about how to get there, means you have nothing. This dude comes to me every time he is working on something, either asking for advice, or help to learn how to do something, which I have given him for free for a long time now. I thought he was doing the same when he pointed to the Minecraft videos. Now, I'm the 1 stealing ideas just cause I made an animated Minecraft video.

Again, ideas are free, and you shouldn't talk at all, if you actually think you should benefit just because of an idea, nor listen as you might end up stealing some1's idea. The ideas are the easy part.

Perrie Juran · October 28, 2013

Medhue Simoni wrote:

Again, ideas are free, and you shouldn't talk at all, if you actually think you should benefit just because of an idea, nor listen as you might end up stealing some1's idea. The ideas are the easy part.

If we all had a nickle for all the ideas we ever had many of us could have retired young.

It is however a good thing that I never tried to implement most of my ideas. I'd certainly be in the poor house.

Storm Clarence · October 28, 2013

Rex Cronon wrote:

@Storm Clarence:

-having ll act as agent sounds ok. sadly ll also wants to force and to bully people to do what ll wants, and how ll wants it:( if i am not mistaken that falls under "unfair business practices" under the california law.

-imo you should read the blog posts here and elsewhere more carefully. most people have realized by now that ll is not taking your ip away nor your copyright. ll "only" wants to exploit what u make however they like, change it in any way, for as long as they want,

and without giving you any credit:

(

-it

s very strange how ll thinks it can rework the tos without talking to us,

while at the same time wanting us to stop talking about the tos! if ll insists on doing this, than the logical outcome will be a new tos that doesn't address our concerns and worries:(

-a lot of people want to make money, sadly the current tos due to being so poorly written(on purpose or not) is very slanted towards giving to ll more power over us and our creations

while leaving us holding the short end of the stick

-i see nothing wrong about watermarking your images/pictures, sadly the new tos

gives ll the power to remove them.

you can also obfuscate lsl code.

i have a program that obfuscates lsl code and each day i lean more and more towards making it free to use and asking only for donations

.

p.s.

-if you don't understand the differences between the current version of the tos and the previous ones, than maybe you shouldn't try so hard to make it look like what this tos says is something very normal.

-btw. w

ould u and others stop saying that if people don't like it then they shouldn't press the "I Agree" butto

n. not agreeing doesn't solve anything. not only is the tos vague to what happens if u don't agree, but there are already lots of people that pressed that button due to various reasons(like being denied access to whats theirs). the tos doesn't say what happens to whatever you are selling on the mp(who gets the money?), it doesn't say what happens with the $L in your account, it doesn't say what happens if you are in a contractual agreement with another avatar and because u can't fulfill it you get sued by that avatar in rl especially if you were already paid:(

Re: bold stuff

I didn't read "and without giving you any credit" in the ToS... this is the hyperbole I read on many of the blogs you are telling me to read, and on this forum.

You only get the short end of the stick if you take the short end of the stick. (Imo, this 'new' TOS creates competitiveness and opportunity for many of the creators that are NOT seeing too much profit these days. New opportunities.) The short end of the stick can be very lucrative... that is, if you don't let your ego get in the way.

LL can't write any TOS it wants, and you have the right to NOT Agree! What ever made you think you are on equal footing when it comes to their business policies?

You are again making assuptions that have not been proved to any point. LL needs you as much as you need them.

You found a niche' then with your LL code obfuscation routines. Good luck. (What does the LL delineate? Linden Lab?) Are you saying you want to take their work and make it your own and for donations?

Last but not least, I hit the I Agree so I can 'say' whatever I want and choose on this forum! You want to defend your right over your IP--I will defend my right to post here! Go figure.

Storm Clarence · October 28, 2013

Rex Cronon wrote:

p.s.

-if you don't understand the differences between the current version of the tos and the previous ones, than maybe you shouldn't try so hard to make it look like

what this tos says is something very normal.

Thinkerer took the verbiage from the new TOS and plugged them into Google and got 300 returns with verbatim wording. See my post above re: cut and paste by LL legal team. LL is NOT setting a new precedent here, they are following.

Rex Cronon · October 28, 2013

-i guess you are finacialy secure and can aford to be altruistic and don't need/want any money. are all your contributions to the OS movement done anonymosly? are you sure you don't expect something in return(like recognition and/or fame)? i think that these things are a form of payment to you. others also need/want money besides recognition and fame. there is nothing wrong with receiving payment(in whatever form) for what u do.
-there is nothing wrong for wanting to control how is used what you made. ll iteself does that. you can't take the logo of ll(then hand with the eye in it) and do what you want with it without ll throwing a fit. you can't take the OS viewer code and do whatever you want with it or use it however you want it. why should ll decide for me what to do with what i made? maybe i don't want to sell it on desura, or if i do i might want to sell it there for a better price. on the mp lots of things are sold at lower price only because people get to use them only in sl. ll could afford to sell there at low price because it does at our expense. selling at high volume there allows it to make a profit while we get almost nothing.
-do you really think that ll(a privately owned company that wants to make a profit) will share fairly the profits with us? do you also think that ll does it just for us and not to increase its own profit? haha.

Storm Clarence · October 28, 2013

Perrie Juran wrote:

If we all

had a nickle

for all the ideas we ever had many of us could have retired young.

We all may not, but I do.

I have worked hard so as to monetize my techncal ideas and implementations. Others have found use for my ideas; bettered them; customized them, and profit from them. Yay for them.

PS And I could NOT have done it without others

Darrius Gothly · October 28, 2013

During the majority of my professional career, I earned the biggest paychecks by performing a function I called a "Reality Processor". Simply put that was a position that took the ideas of someone else then applied my knowledge, skills and available tools to turn the idea into a saleable property. When the "Idea Man" recognized the necessity of partnering with the "Reality Processor", we did some amazing (and amazingly profitable) things.

Sadly though there usually came a time when the Idea Man began to think he was the only necessary part .. and thus he would break the partnership. Without fail, the direct and often rapid result was the spectacular cratering of the entire venture.

While I agree in part that "Ideas should be free", the protection of those ideas and the proper conversion of them into viable products is the real fuel in the engine of business. Some people are not only prolific enough in the creation of good ideas, but also wise enough in choosing which to retain and which to give away, that they can and do become very successful while also acting in a very beneficial and philanthropic manner. Benjamin Franklin is an example that springs to mind rapidly; giving away his invention of the Lightning Rod yet protecting his Printing Press by licensing third-party print shops to use it.

With all that said, the bottom line truth is: Good Ideas are not free nor are they easy. Coming up with a good and potentially profitable idea is, for some people, a once or maybe twice in a lifetime event. The tough part is recognizing when an idea truly is unique, new and "Mine". Sadly many people leap directly from "I thought it up" to "therefore it's mine." They don't stop to think about what is at the core of the idea or even consider that it isn't even new. I would be willing to bet that the US Patent Office rejects a giant pile of "Bent Metal Paper Retention Device" (aka "staple") patent applications every month.

You might want to talk to your friend and ask him to write out in explicit terms exactly what about "His Idea" was the new and totally unique part. That little exercise may cause him to realize that what he thinks is "His Idea" is really not that new nor even his. On the other hand, it just might be that he's right and you have unintentionally borrowed a unique idea and the clear statement of that idea might just open your eyes to your accidental infraction. Based simply on your description, I honestly can't tell which way this might go. Hopefully the end result will be that you wind up still friends and with a resolution that benefits you both.

Dartagan Shepherd · October 28, 2013

I just wish you'd arrive at a point, because all I get is that LL is bigger than us wannabe redneck creators and we shouldn't try and well ... everything is ok, because other people are doing it.

All of which are pretty unrealistic and on the silly side. LL is willing to work with us more than you're willing to concede that there is actually a real issue that does affect people personally.

Everything seems to by hyperbole with you. LL, lawyers, bloggers, merchants. If that's your point I think we got that the first couple dozen times.

We've got a problem with it. LL understands that it needs to be addressed where apparently you don't. If this is damage control for LL, I'm thinking it's not helping them very much.

If it's just for the trolling, you probably did come to the right topic, though. I imagine other topics are not so rewarding.

Storm Clarence · October 28, 2013

Rex Cronon wrote:

-i guess you are finacialy secure and can aford to be altruistic and don't need/want any money. are all your contributions to the OS movement done anonymosly?

are you sure you don't expect something in return(like recognition and/or fame)?

I expect everything in return! Lots of money, rock-star fame, and love are just of few of the things I expect out of life. If I work hard enough they are all available for the taking. And I do want more? Who wouldn't?

Darrius Gothly · October 28, 2013

Storm Clarence wrote:

Darrius Gothly wrote:

Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

I'm reading exploit as "sell". Which is fine, that LL wants to give us ways to sell to game developers. At least they did make their intent known in a roundabout way.

Note to LL: This never had to be a secret and in fact batting around the possible plans would have been received positively. You think too much of yourselves and too little of us with the hush-hush act and that shows.

No conspiracy theory after all.

As far as acting as our agent, that's precisely what we don't want you to do.

If you want (you as well as us) to profit from joint content, then just give us options to upload to Desura. Many of us would. Put that under a separate TOS that we're sure limits game developers from exploiting our content beyond their games.

Don't merge the marketplace or in-world content in one mixed bag. First, the marketplace is still too buggy for your reputation and us to rely on for a mega market.

Secondly unless you're willing to change land impact in SL, it's not "very" compatible with game modeling where simpler rules apply ... low poly with good UV's is well, low poly with good UV's. Land impact requires more mesh hoops and unknown calculations than standard low poly game modelling.

Keep them separate and under our upload control, so that we choose to which LL product we participate in and upload to. I think we're willing to support you in this, but not the path you're trying to choose for us.

You do not need blanket rights or to act as our agent and you know this.

Keeping us out of this loop is what lost you some customers in the first place.

(bolding mine)

Why not? Why would you not want LL to act as your agent especially when they are capable of commercially exploiting other markets within their domain that are NOT so readily available to the whole? Isn't this a win for producers of goods and product as well as LL?

If your product has any real value then that is the value you will realize (less the LL vigorish, of course.)

I read some posters to this thread writing that 'other' grids, e.g., Inworldz is the answer to your IP problems. Imo, LL is offering other channels of distribution for product that have 10-100x the exposure of Inworldz.

LL did not take away any IP rights from creators and producers, they did not say you no longer 'own' what you created--they just assigned themselves the same rights.... use 'our' environment to create and deploy and we (LL) now have other channels for commercial exploitation of that product.

All the other talk on why they did not tell us sooner, or we didn't ask you to help us, or fixing MP first just reads a little puerile, imo. Give LL an opportunity to rework the ToS as was asked of them.

Everything I read coming from LL is that they want to make more money - don't creators and producers of product for LL's platforms share this interest? As Dartagan wrote: most would! Why does LL need to incorporate that wording under a different ToS?

PS Any wording LL issues will not please everyone. It never has, it never will. To those people perhaps Inworldz is the right answer-- for today, anyway.

In the meantime, watermark or sign your product e.g., a creators logo or SL logo on the back cuff of my new mesh pants ain't gonna hurt me. LL does not have rights to remove logo or alter the product...

I do not want Linden Lab to act as my agent for a number of reasons. While I have read all of your replies to the various others that have piled on, I am amazed that someone with your usually razor sharp comprehension has missed the true power of the language in Section 2.3 of the new ToS.

They have set forth conditions and requirements that:

Allow them to sell my IP anywhere they wish without my approval
Allow them to sell my IP without notifying me of the sale
Allow them to make money from my IP without paying me anything for it
Allow them to claim my IP is theirs totally
Place me in a position of violating License Agreements with others

They have done all this while stating that they needed these rights and powers to properly exploit my IP. Yet the language in the ToS specifically states without any quibble that they have no requirement to share any benefit from my IP.

I won't debate this with you further Storm as it is quite clear to me that you are here solely to stir up debate .. but NOT to further the discussion. So with that said .. *waves and clicks "Post"

Storm Clarence · October 28, 2013

Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

I just wish you'd arrive at a point, because all I get is that LL is bigger than us wannabe redneck creators and we shouldn't try and well ... everything is ok, because other people are doing it.

All of which are pretty unrealistic and on the silly side. LL is willing to work with us more than you're willing to concede that there is actually a real issue that does affect people personally.

Everything seems to by hyperbole with you. LL, lawyers, bloggers, merchants. If that's your point I think we got that the first couple dozen times.

We've got a problem with it. LL understands that it needs to be addressed where apparently you don't. If this is damage control for LL, I'm thinking it's not helping them very much.

If it's just for the trolling, you probably did come to the right topic, though. I imagine other topics are not so rewarding.

These^^ are all YOUR words, assumptions, and emotions. I have written nothing of the sort.

PS I find trolling very serendipitous. Replies like the ones you pen make me wish trolling was my full time job.

Magnet Homewood · October 28, 2013

I have to be honest and say that I don't really care for the money, but I do want more **bleep** than Frank Sinatra.

Back on topic ... I don't see any mention in the TOS where LL says they will pay me for whatever money they make from me. Maybe you can point me to the section that states that? Because they sure as hell state they can use whatever I give them in any way they want. I just don't have the faiththat we will both get rich like IBM and MS in your previous post.

Magnet Homewood · October 28, 2013

**bleep** oh my, that made me laugh! And there I was ripping off Robbie Robertson and I got bleeped! Serves me right.

Storm Clarence · October 28, 2013