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Summer Tison wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:



My first three years in SL I spent on average FIVE WHOLE DOLLARS A MONTH.

They certainly were getting very, very rich on my back!

But here we have again another software and server architecture expert posting about how badly designed and archaic SL is. 

Got to love it.

 

I often wonder what keeps them on SL if it's as bad as they make it out to be. 

Maybe I'm just easily pleased :smileyindifferent:

That makes two of us, Summer.  If I didn't enjoy SL so much, I wouldn't have hung in there with my former PC.  Even with the inability to see SL in better graphical detail, not being able to see much beyond my nose, per se...I still enjoyed and enjoy SL.

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KatTruewalker wrote:

The sad fact is Linden Labs are making a huge profit off the backs of customers who are too frightened to make a fuss about the archaic software, poor customer support and basically crappy game mechanics.  Perhaps none of you play other games out there, but believe me, Linden belongs in the dinosaur age as far as development and response to customers goes.

While people are happy to continue paying vast amounts of real world money and accept sub par service, Linden will continue to make their $100 million a year and be very pleased about it.

It's only by complaining and raising issues or by voting with your feet and going elsewhere that we can encourage Linden to actually enter the 21st century and update regularly.

At the moment all I see is an extremely complacent company with a bunch of overly loyal supporters who are happy to let this kind of service continue.

Weekly updates aren't regular enough for you? LL is a small private company managing a very complex product. They can't do anything quickly. When they try the results are usually bad.

Complaining in the SL Forums has the same effect as complaining to a passing squirrel; Linden Lab doesn't pay attention to either. I assume you've voted with your feet and are leaving or have left SL. So long & have a nice life.

 

 

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Parhelion Palou wrote:


KatTruewalker wrote:

The sad fact is Linden Labs are making a huge profit off the backs of customers who are too frightened to make a fuss about the archaic software, poor customer support and basically crappy game mechanics.  Perhaps none of you play other games out there, but believe me, Linden belongs in the dinosaur age as far as development and response to customers goes.

While people are happy to continue paying vast amounts of real world money and accept sub par service, Linden will continue to make their $100 million a year and be very pleased about it.

It's only by complaining and raising issues or by voting with your feet and going elsewhere that we can encourage Linden to actually enter the 21st century and update regularly.

At the moment all I see is an extremely complacent company with a bunch of overly loyal supporters who are happy to let this kind of service continue.

Weekly updates aren't regular enough for you? LL is a small private company managing a very complex product. They can't do anything quickly. When they try the results are usually bad.

Complaining in the SL Forums has the same effect as complaining to a passing squirrel; Linden Lab doesn't pay attention to either. I assume you've voted with your feet and are leaving or have left SL. So long & have a nice life.

 

 

Some people just don't get or understand the difference between a Computer Game with a static environment that can be pre-installed on you computer and Second Life (and similar Virtual Worlds) that are dynamic and have to be updated literally in Real Time.

While there may be MPORGS (or whatever the correct initials are) and other Virtual Worlds that excel in different categories, there are no others that in the Aggregate offer the variety and flexibility that Second Life does.  The down side is that in order to accomplish that variety and flexibility it means we take a 'hit' on performance.

Anyone look at how much WOW earned last year.  How about the latest release of Grand Theft Auto?  All on the backs of all those poor users.  Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

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Summer Tison wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:



My first three years in SL I spent on average FIVE WHOLE DOLLARS A MONTH.

They certainly were getting very, very rich on my back!

But here we have again another software and server architecture expert posting about how badly designed and archaic SL is. 

Got to love it.

 

I often wonder what keeps them on SL if it's as bad as they make it out to be. 

Maybe I'm just easily pleased :smileyindifferent:

I like Second Life but Linden Lab's has deliberately ruined the users experience

encase you cannot see the bug report or haven't browsed my previous posts here is a quick recap of how Linden Lab's treats consumers who buy a modern computer

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Viewer/Second-Life-3-6-2-279258-Jul-30-2013-08-04-02-Second-Life/td-p/2170147

In all my life I have never seen a game/app penalize me for having beyond the system requirements

when I go into graphics options

Basic shaders

Atmospheric shaders

Advanced Lighting Model

Ambient Occlusion

Depth of Field

Shadows

Water Reflections

Hardware Skinning

Avatar cloth

Sky

are all disabled and cannot be re abled as they are all grayed out completely

End of Life as in End of Life cycle Second LIfe has reach this point where it is no longer supported by its creator Linden  Lab's developers 6 months to writ less then a sentence into the client viewer so that it will work proper but no they only complicate the issue and make it more challenging by messing up more things in the code instead

microsoft has it for windows to 

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/products/lifecycle

at five dollars a month I would consider you more of a Free-to-Play player then someone who actually does the pay to play trend and splurges rendering your opinion on the subject and matter quiet trivial as you do not use the app only loiter/beg/pan handle for what you can get free pan handling is illegal in some places check your local jurisdiction for details

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That's commendable and I'm sure Linden Lab appreciate your loyalty but with traffic dropping and Linden becoming all the more protective of content created by their customers, making it difficult for creators to export and use items elsewhere, I'd be worried.

I've travelled around sl and visited places and most of the time it looks like a graveyard, creators have left, don't update their stock and the price of land is extortionate.

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/secondlife.com

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I'm sorry you felt you needed to reply with something insulting, the fact is Linden relies on it's players (yes, players)  spending money to create revenue in their virtual space.  No revenue = no updates = end of game, been there done that with games in the past, as soon as it becomes non - profitable they shut down, Linden are a business after all.

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Hmmm  interesting, the problem with people who have an emotional investment in a game is that they don't want to rock the boat at all, what ice and I are saying is there is a huge potential for improvement in sl which other virtual worlds are capitalising on - cheaper rents, larger prims, free uploading of creators content and the ability to use your own created content where you want to.

 

Look at the T&C for this world for example..

http://inworldz.com/

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Commendable and I admire your persistence.  But again I'd point to a number of factors which suggest that Linden is losing out to competitors and a large number of their customers are going elsewhere, sl will become even more of a ghost world than it normally is.

 

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2013/06/linden-lab-class-action-settlement.html

 

http://www.bbb.org/greater-san-francisco/business-reviews/internet-gaming/linden-lab-in-san-francisco-ca-57373

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/linden-lab-restructures-to-generate-efficiencies-and-support-investment-in-new-platforms-95982564.html

 

 

 

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I beg to differ, any company who generates an income of millions of dollars does not count as small in my world.  The main reason I'm posting here is because of the nature of some of the replies that ice received to his question.  Smug, ignorant and downright insulting replies to a genuine need for some help are not encouraging.

You summed it up in a nutshell actually 'When they try the results are usually bad.'

There's no excuse for a company that provides a service to paying customers to not get it's act together and produce what the customers are asking for. 

http://www.bbb.org/greater-san-francisco/business-reviews/internet-gaming/linden-lab-in-san-francisco-ca-57373

 

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2013/06/linden-lab-class-action-settlement.html

Plus all the new restrictions on how and where creators can use content they've uploaded to sl.  This sounds like a company pulling in it's tentacles and trying to defend itself from the competition by imprisoning it's already falling number of users.

For your information... I rented a sim here for a while, the cost was exorbitant, the number of prims were pitiful, the content was horrendously expensive and in some cases very badly made, the customer support from creators almost non existent.  Why would I spend that amount of my hard earned money on a product like this?  Yet people do and they're welcome to.

Second Life could be such a brilliant place if they'd carried on the energy they showed when it was first launched....  however it's stagnated and is resting on it's laurels and has become complacent.

 

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I'm sorry....  I'd like to point you in the direction of some very mobile, active and dynamic MMORPG's out there, but I feel I'd be wasting my ink.

Second Life is a GAME.  Developers of all genres are now moving towards allowing and even encouraging user created content for all manner of virtual spaces.  This is where gaming is heading....players are demanding dynamic worlds where their actions have an impact on the space they play in.  Customers are demanding graphical and performance levels consistent and up to date with the hardware they purchase.  The successful businesses realise this and implement these improvements into their games... if they don't.... they lose player base and die.

Please don't make assumptions about what I do or do not know about different genres of games.

 

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KatTruewalker wrote:

Hmmm  interesting, the problem with people who have an emotional investment in a game is that they don't want to rock the boat at all, what ice and I are saying is there is a huge potential for improvement in sl which other virtual worlds are capitalising on - cheaper rents, larger prims, free uploading of creators content and the ability to use your own created content where you want to.

 

Look at the T&C for this world for example..


Emotional investment? Please feel free to expand on this.

So you want me to rock a boat that I'm quite happily sailing just to pander to your needs/wants?

I have seen great advancements in SL over the years, and of course it's not perfect, there are little things that can sometimes be annoying, (quite like RL actually), but MY SL experience is on the whole, a good one.

If I ever have any issues, I'll be sure to let LL know rather than come here complaining to a bunch of people that can do nothing to help me.

I have tried the likes of InWorldz, Avination etc and in my opinion they are all SL wannabes, in fact, the last time I logged on to InWolrlz I never saw anyone.

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KatTruewalker wrote:

I'm sorry....  I'd like to point you in the direction of some very mobile, active and dynamic MMORPG's out there, but I feel I'd be wasting my ink.

Second Life is a GAME.  Developers of all genres are now moving towards allowing and even encouraging user created content for all manner of virtual spaces.  This is where gaming is heading....players are demanding dynamic worlds where their actions have an impact on the space they play in.  Customers are demanding graphical and performance levels consistent and up to date with the hardware they purchase.  The successful businesses realise this and implement these improvements into their games... if they don't.... they lose player base and die.

Please don't make assumptions about what I do or do not know about different genres of games.

 

I am very aware that other, I will use the word 'platforms' because I don't want to get into the 'game' debate here, are offering users the ability to have user generated content. 

But note carefully what I said, that none of them offer in 'the aggregate' what Second Life offers.  The content you will be able to create and what you will be able to do will be limited.  Those platforms are different.  Second Life is the only one with the exception of some copycats and one other that isn't a copycat of the SL platform that offers you a blank white page to write on.  (I am not using copycat as a derogatory term, I just don't know a better one here).

The more ability a platform gives you to create user content, the more that performance will suffer.  For instance, giving you the ability to Terra Form would mean that the land could no longer be 'pre loaded' on your computer in the way that it is now.  That creates a performance hit.  What about textures on clothing?  Skins?  Each added ability creates a performance hit.  And when it is a shared experience the performance hit is even greater and you begin to run into the technical limits of what current infrastructure can handle.

As to whether or not LL can do a better job I agree that they can.  Why they have been so slow to update their GPU tables and support for the 'latest, greatest' I don't know.  I'm right in line with those who say LL's customer support is lack luster.  But that is a separate issue from the platform itself.

Could a better platform be designed?  No doubt.  Could LL adapt a completely new platform?  Absolutely.  But the question becomes at what cost.  With each improvement that they make LL has to ask the question, "What affect will this have on existing content?"  There is no getting around this. 

It is the fact that the 'gamer experts' seem to either ignore or be unaware of the infrastructure limitations or the problems with the potential effect on existing content that I question.  They seem to want to make the answers sound as easy as A,B,C, when the reality is that they aren't.

If it were possible to offer a platform that could give us a blank page to write on with the performance level of games like WOW, etc, someone would be doing it NOW and we'd all be migrating over to it.  So we each have a choice of where we want to play.  I criticize no one for their choice.  But I accept that each choice will have it's own unique limitations.

 

 

 

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KatTruewalker wrote:

...the problem with people who have an emotional investment in a game...

One of the problems with people that think SL is a game is that their view of it is so limited.  Another is that you never know when they're playing.  Since they don't even try to take it seriously they aren't serious, and shouldn't be taken as such.

You off InWorldz - an SL clone - as a better example and yet it is more limited in many ways, as are all the OpenSim-based grids.  Recommendations of other virtual-world platforms are always welcome; I like Kaneva.

Oh yeah - and they have to be free.  I haven't spent US$5/month in SL, not even US$0.01 in more than 6 years.  All the millions - literally - of L$ I've spent here I've earnt here.  But then somehow icing would say I'm not using the platform ^^

 

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KatTruewalker wrote:

Commendable and I admire your persistence.  But again I'd point to a number of factors which suggest that Linden is losing out to competitors and a large number of their customers are going elsewhere, sl will become even more of a ghost world than it normally is.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh I'm aware of other places/grids and have been to one in particular; I do also rock the boat where SL issues are concerned.  I just honestly like SL . :)

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LL can't win for losing as the saying goes. LL gets complaints from older computer users that they have features that older graphics cards can't keep up with then the ones that have the newest and best graphics cards complain because it doesn't work well with SL yet...

How many remember the grid closing down on Weds at 8AM SLT, supposedly for 4 hours, for upgrades; 4 hours that became 6 that became 8 and then the grid was unstable all weekend? Now we get rolling restarts spread out over 3 days so the whole grid rarely goes down.


As for performance, as others have said, almost everything you see around you is user created and can't be preloaded like WoW, Diablo, etc. That takes a huge hit on your performance.

The software is actually totally redone. That's what the V2 fiasco was about, the updated software. They've phased out the old software since none of the original programmers are with LL and the current programmers aren't even sure what some of the coding is for. They were also have problems with it such that every time they tried something new, they had a coding conflict. Prime example is them being unable to get the avi deformer for mesh to work properly.

You also have the scripts that people write in SL that work with the LL servers. Some of those are well written. Some are just bad. The server has to deal with those as well. The bad ones can cause massive lag.

LL has come  long way and is still changing every day. If you still have it in your inventory, take a look at the old hair, skins and clothes. Compare the textures from then and now, the construction techniques, etc. Contact me in world and I'll be happy to show you my original avi on my original account, complete with clothes, skin, shape and hair.

If you are jumping into SL expecting a smooth, fast experience like you get in WoW et al, forget it. There is too much content within SL that has been created by the users that you have to access everywhere you go in SL.

I'm not blind to the problems, but I remember where SL started.

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Bobbie Faulds wrote:

LL can't win for losing as the saying goes. LL gets complaints from older computer users that they have features that older graphics cards can't keep up with then the ones that have the newest and best graphics cards complain because it doesn't work well with SL yet...

How many remember the grid closing down on Weds at 8AM SLT, supposedly for 4 hours, for upgrades; 4 hours that became 6 that became 8 and then the grid was unstable all weekend? Now we get rolling restarts spread out over 3 days so the whole grid rarely goes down.

 

As for performance, as others have said, almost everything you see around you is user created and can't be preloaded like WoW, Diablo, etc. That takes a huge hit on your performance.

The software is actually totally redone. That's what the V2 fiasco was about, the updated software. They've phased out the old software since none of the original programmers are with LL and the current programmers aren't even sure what some of the coding is for. They were also have problems with it such that every time they tried something new, they had a coding conflict. Prime example is them being unable to get the avi deformer for mesh to work properly.

You also have the scripts that people write in SL that work with the LL servers. Some of those are well written. Some are just bad. The server has to deal with those as well. The bad ones can cause massive lag.

LL has come  long way and is still changing every day. If you still have it in your inventory, take a look at the old hair, skins and clothes. Compare the textures from then and now, the construction techniques, etc. Contact me in world and I'll be happy to show you my original avi on my original account, complete with clothes, skin, shape and hair.

If you are jumping into SL expecting a smooth, fast experience like you get in WoW et al, forget it. There is too much content within SL that has been created by the users that you have to access everywhere you go in SL.

I'm not blind to the problems, but I remember where SL started.

From what I have heard SL lags like a chop shop because the graphics engine renders on the cpu instead of gpu video card as frame rate sux with a gtx 460 and gtx 780 in sl and on amd or intel cpu's I also don't think video card makers directly support sl either as performance is very bad across the board video card makers can some times provide work arounds patches in the drivers to fix performance with certain apps games but only if they are willing to

as for content imvu has basically the the same system in place as sl all user created

it is pretty sad when you cannot go out and buy a bran new pc and use it with sl as they are not compatible with linden lab's second life software viewer the only way to get sl to run is to go to a city land fill and look for old pc's that are discarded and hope they still function and use that with second life. imvu doesn't have this issue though go figure

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iceing Braveheart wrote:



From what I have heard SL lags like a chop shop because the graphics engine renders on the cpu instead of gpu video card as frame rate sux with a gtx 460 and gtx 780 in sl and on amd or intel cpu's I also don't think video card makers directly support sl either as performance is very bad across the board video card makers can some times provide work arounds patches in the drivers to fix performance with certain apps games but only if they are willing to

as for content imvu has basically the the same system in place as sl all user created

it is pretty sad when you cannot go out and buy a bran new pc and use it with sl as they are not compatible with linden lab's second life software viewer the only way to get sl to run is to go to a city land fill and look for old pc's that are discarded and hope they still function and use that with second life. imvu doesn't have this issue though go figure

I use Singularity Viewer and have none of these issues you are experiencing or heard about (I'm using a laptop that is 9 months old with just the usual onboard Graphics).

Lag seems to be a thing of the past now, it certainly doesn't affect me like it used to in the old days, but this could be dependant on where you hang out. 

Of all the places you chose to compare to SL, you chose IMVU which is nothing like it at all. Try Singularity or another TPV and see if that works. I really don't see how you can blame LL for your PC issues.

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Summer Tison wrote:


iceing Braveheart wrote:



From what I have heard SL lags like a chop shop because the graphics engine renders on the cpu instead of gpu video card as frame rate sux with a gtx 460 and gtx 780 in sl and on amd or intel cpu's I also don't think video card makers directly support sl either as performance is very bad across the board video card makers can some times provide work arounds patches in the drivers to fix performance with certain apps games but only if they are willing to

as for content imvu has basically the the same system in place as sl all user created

it is pretty sad when you cannot go out and buy a bran new pc and use it with sl as they are not compatible with linden lab's second life software viewer the only way to get sl to run is to go to a city land fill and look for old pc's that are discarded and hope they still function and use that with second life. imvu doesn't have this issue though go figure

I use Singularity Viewer and have none of these issues you are experiencing or heard about (I'm using a laptop that is 9 months old with just the usual onboard Graphics).

Lag seems to be a thing of the past now, it certainly doesn't affect me like it used to in the old days, but this could be dependant on where you hang out. 

Of all the places you chose to compare to SL, you chose IMVU which is nothing like it at all. Try Singularity or another TPV and see if that works. I really don't see how you can blame LL for your PC issues.

Care to explain elaborate how I am having pc issues?

like I said on starting post for thread I am sorry I bought a new pc and linden lab's is not compatible with it I will just go use other apps and stop using this one it is very simple if it makes you feel better go ahead blame my pc but I am sure other companies will enjoy the money I spend there as for second life I have tried countless times contacting them and they just do not give a damn so there is nothing I can do but leave

I have also seen countless posts with amd users posting second life is not compatible with there pc's with so many compatibility issues highly I recommend you savour and enjoy every last second of second life like it is the last as this business may go under if it cannot maintain clients or bring in new as there software appears to be incompatible with new pc's and laptops ect preventing new users from joining sl and incompatible with amd based pc's preventing new and old users from continuing to play or from joining sl

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'If I ever have any issues, I'll be sure to let LL know rather than come here complaining to a bunch of people that can do nothing to help me.'

 

I believe iceing came here hoping to discuss his problems with the wide base of knowledgeable and experienced players who frequent these forums, LL are another of those companies who rarely communicate with their players, leaving them them the only option of seeking help elsewhere.

 

Emotional Investment - any player tends to invest a lot of emotional energy into their relationships online, by which I mean friendships as well as other closer relationships, not only that but many people on sl have also invested a great deal of time, effort and cold hard cash.  It's hard to delete a character or leave a game where you know the software isn't up to par or game performance is abysmal when your online social network and vast valuable inventory is at stake.

I'm glad to hear you're happy in sl...  but that's not the point of this thread, is it?

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Just a Heads-Up...

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Release/3.6.8.282335

The above Viewer Release has implemented some fixes for the Crash after Login issue some are experiencing when using the current crop of AMD Catalyst Drivers. Other AMD fixes may also be included as well.

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Thank you... I really appreciate your post and the comments you made there and I agree with all of them.  Maybe what players want to see acknowledged is those very points you raised.

SL is an old game, it was a forerunner in it's time, the problem is it hasn't kept pace with hardware or technological developments.  Having played an MMO which suffered from very similar problems and which closed down rather than adapt and improve, I recognise similar signs in SL.

Maybe what I'm looking for is LL to respond to the concerns of it's users, not by applying more restrictive T&C's or implementing updates which are less than game ready, but by entering a real discussion with it's paying customers.  After all, we are the lifeblood of this company and this platform, we pay their salaries, fund their improvements, I think a lot of them forget that point.  It's no different to real life....what we want is value for money and an open and honest discussion of the problems that exist and what measures are being planned to deal with them.

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SL is a game, I stand by that, despite the fact that I know there are creators here who earn real money and run businesses.  It has to be regarded as a game because it's a virtual space hosted by a company who is there to make a profit.  They have no moral obligation to keep the game running, they would shut it down in the twinkling of an eye if revenue significantly reduced.

 

The other alternative open sim spaces are all in start up phase, they're new and risky and could easily fail.  Most are trying to mimic the SL model but also address the technological problems that LL is finding itself with because of the age of the architecture they use.  Sometimes the most viable option is to scrap the original and start over because you can't improve what already exists.

 

Companies need to listen to their customers..  we're now looking at a new generation of gamers who grew up with platform games, the first MMO's, the first SL....they know what they're looking for, they're computer savvy, both hardware and software, they're becoming more demanding in what they expect from their online experience.  I know that a lot of software companies are finding this hard to deal with.  I certainly am not content with the same old, same old  MMORPG format that seems to persist.  Nor should we let LL rest easy and allow them to ride the wave of their earlier popularity.  Improvements will only come if the existing player base demands it.  LL themselves must be concerned..  despite their mega profits they are taking measures to protect the company from further losses it seems.

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