Second Life: End of Life

[KatTruewalker]

Thank you for posting, I agree with everything you said there but there is a limit to how much slack I'm prepared to give a company who has LL level of income, made off the backs of it's many creative and innovative customers.

[KatTruewalker]

That's looking promising, thank you for posting the link!

[jujmental]

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KatTruewalker wrote:

Thank you... I really appreciate your post and the comments you made there and I agree with all of them.  Maybe what players want to see acknowledged is those very points you raised.

SL is an old game, it was a forerunner in it's time, the problem is it hasn't kept pace with hardware or technological developments.  Having played an MMO which suffered from very similar problems and which closed down rather than adapt and improve, I recognise similar signs in SL.

Maybe what I'm looking for is LL to respond to the concerns of it's users, not by applying more restrictive T&C's or implementing updates which are less than game ready, but by entering a real discussion with it's paying customers.  After all, we are the lifeblood of this company and this platform, we pay their salaries, fund their improvements, I think a lot of them forget that point.  It's no different to real life....what we want is value for money and an open and honest discussion of the problems that exist and what measures are being planned to deal with them.

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On the charge of diluting an otherwise coherent argument by using it's not its: GUILTY

Obiter Dicta:  It's its not it's.

On the charge of insisting it's a game: NOT GUILTY

Obiter Dicta: It's a game; soon to be abandoned to those who don't realise it's a game, at which point it will cease to be a game, soon after which it will simply cease.

The Judge

[Summer Tison]

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iceing Braveheart wrote:

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Summer Tison wrote:

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iceing Braveheart wrote:

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Care to explain elaborate how I am having pc issues?

like I said on starting post for thread I am sorry I bought a new pc and linden lab's is not compatible with it I will just go use other apps and stop using this one it is very simple if it makes you feel better go ahead blame my pc but I am sure other companies will enjoy the money I spend there as for second life I have tried countless times contacting them and they just do not give a damn so there is nothing I can do but leave

I have also seen countless posts with amd users posting second life is not compatible with there pc's with so many compatibility issues highly I recommend you savour and enjoy every last second of second life like it is the last as this business may go under if it cannot maintain clients or bring in new as there software appears to be incompatible with new pc's and laptops ect preventing new users from joining sl and incompatible with amd based pc's preventing new and old users from continuing to play or from joining sl

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Care to explain how LL is to blame because YOUR pc isn't working with SL? Surely that is an issue your end, and as I explained I have a new Laptop that runs SL perfectly well, so it's not ALL new PCs/Laptops that are having this problem.

You're full of doom and gloom, you seem to think I care if you go elsewhere with your money, what a strange conclusion you made there. 

Did you buy your new PC with SL in mind? I know when I had to renew my Laptop I bought the best I could within my budget knowing I would want access to SL. You have been given some good advice on this thread, it's your choice if you want to take it, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

[Summer Tison]

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KatTruewalker wrote:

'If I ever have any issues, I'll be sure to let LL know rather than come here complaining to a bunch of people that can do nothing to help me.'

 

I believe iceing came here hoping to discuss his problems with the wide base of knowledgeable and experienced players who frequent these forums, LL are another of those companies who rarely communicate with their players, leaving them them the only option of seeking help elsewhere.

 

Emotional Investment - any player tends to invest a lot of emotional energy into their relationships online, by which I mean friendships as well as other closer relationships, not only that but many people on sl have also invested a great deal of time, effort and cold hard cash.  It's hard to delete a character or leave a game where you know the software isn't up to par or game performance is abysmal when your online social network and vast valuable inventory is at stake.

I'm glad to hear you're happy in sl...  but that's not the point of this thread, is it?

 

I gave my opinion of my SL experience, just as the OP has given his, did he only want posts that agreed with his? 

For some reason he seems hell bent on using the official viewer, it has been suggested by several posters that he try something else, I know from experience that my Laptop does not fair well with certain Viewers, and it's the same with my PC.

How does that saying go? You can lead a horse to water....

 

 

[Malanya]

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KatTruewalker wrote:

I know, I agree with you, thank you... but what iceing would like to do and finds frustrating....is that his current hardware is not supported which is ruining his experience of a place he enjoys being in.

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People complain when there are no updates to bring sl further and then there are those that complain that updates are ruining their experience because their current specs won't allow them to advance with the changes LL made. It's frustrating I am sure, but change has to come about for sl to continue to improve and not everyone can afford to upgrade their pc's. Change is good, without change nothing advances in this world.

 

 

[PeterCanessa Oh]

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KatTruewalker wrote:

SL is a game, I stand by that, despite the fact that I know there are creators here who earn real money and run businesses.  It has to be regarded as a game because it's a virtual space hosted by a company who is there to make a profit. 

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Your posts are all very reasonable; I'm picking this point just because it's the one that I really can't agree with.  It's been argued many times so I won't beat this particular dead horse yet again.  I hope you realise though that neither being a virtual space not being hosted by a company who is there to make a profit are reasons for considering anything a game.

In many ways SL might be better if it were a game - I think that's what Rodvik thought or intended when he came in from the computer-games industry.  Witness the initiatives that were put in place to make it easier to 'play' - Linden Realms, pathfinding, etc.  The reason I feel sorry for people who think it is a game though remains that it limits their understanding of the platform and other residents so much.

 

[Perrie Juran]

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KatTruewalker wrote:

Thank you... I really appreciate your post and the comments you made there and I agree with all of them.  Maybe what players want to see acknowledged is those very points you raised.

SL is an old game, it was a forerunner in it's time, the problem is it hasn't kept pace with hardware or technological developments.  

Having played an MMO which suffered from very similar problems and which closed down rather than adapt and improve, I recognise similar signs in SL.

Maybe what I'm looking for is LL to respond to the concerns of it's users, not by applying more restrictive T&C's or implementing updates which are less than game ready, but by entering a real discussion with it's paying customers.  After all, we are the lifeblood of this company and this platform, we pay their salaries, fund their improvements, I think a lot of them forget that point.  It's no different to real life....what we want is value for money and an open and honest discussion of the problems that exist and what measures are being planned to deal with them.

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My bolding above.

This is something I somewhat disagree with.  SL is working on adapting and improving.  And while I know that there are many issues in the old JIRA's that people have complained about for years there is a concerted effort to address some of the biggest issues.  And I am of the opinion there will be a domino effect, that there will be sub-issues that will benefit and be fixed by getting these larger issues fixed.

Bake fail is one that has been addressed.  But here also is an example where an improvement has broke things for a few.  And by "a few," I really do mean "a few."  You can't use the small number of people for whom it has caused problems who post here with problems to judge its success.  Nor do I buy when people post and say, "Everyone I know is having troubles."  I have over 100 active people on my friends list and I only know two who are or having trouble.  One of them just got fixed by getting off of onboard graphics and installing a GPU on their five year old computer.  The other one we have narrowed down to the problem being the piss poor modem her ISP provided.  The ISP's response was, if you want a better modem, go buy an aftermarket one. 

SIM crossings is another.  The interest lists project is closely tied to this.  SIM crossings requires moving two data sets.  Sailing a boat across the Blake Sea?  You have to move all your Ava Data to the new SIM and send it to all others on that SIM.  And all the data on that SIM has to be sent to you.  All in real time.  This also holds true when you TP.  It's a lot of data to move.  And it is actually something that most MMPORGS don't provide.  You can't even "see" from one SIM into another but are kept in isolated nodes.  In SL you have "main agents," those on the same SIM with you, and "child agents," those on adjoining SIMs.

Chat, and especially group chat are another thing that is being worked on.  There is more complexity to Chat in SL than a simple IRC chat.  You really can not compare the one to the other.

All of that said, I will get right in line with those who feel that LL should have looked at and done more sooner and that they should devote more resources to these things.   There are many things I don't get.  The Mesh Deformer project should have come way before several things I can think of.  To me it is just on occasion poor priorities.

[Bobbie Faulds]

Once upon a time, I was an SL Mentor, so we had a lot of information given to us.

Your avatar requires 4 different computers to work properly. The one your avi info is on, the one with your inventory, the sim server and your home computer. All 4 have to work for you to be in SL properly. When you move from one sim to another, the info on the other 3 has to be transferred to the new sim and disconnected from the old one. If that doesn't work smoothly, you sometimes get disconnected from the old one before you're connected to the new one.

Chat lag, you have a group with, say 1000 members. Someone sends an IM to the group chat. SL servers have to see who is online, what sim they are in and send it to them...that's a lot of work as well. Then take into account how many chats are going on at any once time.

The mesh deformer project, from what I understand, when they've tried to get it to run, it breaks something else, so not as easy as you might think. I've also heard that too many creators were doing what is being done here in the discussion....add this, take out this, etc. The programmer got fed up and shelved the project. The programmer was then fired for his bad attitude. I'm more inclined to believe the latter based on the various discussion I see here in the forum.

SL is NOT, I repeat is NOT a typical MMO game. WoW/Diablo etc use a set of textures that are a set resolution. SL creations are just that. Made using textures from users, some of which aren't made very well. You can have resolutions from 16 up to 2048. For most applications 512 resolution is more than sufficient unless you are dealing with print. The higher the resolution on the textures, the longer it takes to download.

For instance, you don't need a texture that is 2048 x 2048 for a ring or a brick wall.

If you are using Firefox, not sure where it is on other views, open your develop menu. Then go to Render Metadata and check texture size. If you are lagging in an area, check what the size is on the textures around you. I'm willing to bet you that you'll see a lot of 1024 x 1024 or higher. I'm looking in my work area that I built and the highest is 512 x 512. I hea down to my shop area and same thing; nothing higher thant 512 x 512.

SL doesn't regulate the resolution used for textures, but the lower the resolution, the faster it will rendor.

There's a lot that goes in to making SL. It's more than your WoW/Diablo etc MMO.

 

[PeterCanessa Oh]

The limit on texture size was reduced to 1024 x 1024.

[Bobbie Faulds]

1024 x 1024 is still higher than most textures need. Higher isn't necessarily better and does contribute hugely to lag. In fact, it's probably one of the major contributors to performance degredation.

[KarenMichelle Lane]

and yet another AMD Crash related Viewer release

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Release/3.6.8.282367

Release Notes

This release addresses a startup crash on latest AMD Catalyst drivers: 13.9, 13.10, 13.11.

 

[Czari Zenovka]

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Summer Tison wrote:

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iceing Braveheart wrote:

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From what I have heard SL lags like a chop shop because the graphics engine renders on the cpu instead of gpu video card as frame rate sux with a gtx 460 and gtx 780 in sl and on amd or intel cpu's I also don't think video card makers directly support sl either as performance is very bad across the board video card makers can some times provide work arounds patches in the drivers to fix performance with certain apps games but only if they are willing to

as for content imvu has basically the the same system in place as sl all user created

it is pretty sad when you cannot go out and buy a bran new pc and use it with sl as they are not compatible with linden lab's second life software viewer the only way to get sl to run is to go to a city land fill and look for old pc's that are discarded and hope they still function and use that with second life. imvu doesn't have this issue though go figure

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I use Singularity Viewer and have none of these issues you are experiencing or heard about (I'm using a laptop that is 9 months old with just the usual onboard Graphics).

Lag seems to be a thing of the past now, it certainly doesn't affect me like it used to in the old days, but this could be dependant on where you hang out. 

Of all the places you chose to compare to SL, you chose IMVU which is nothing like it at all. Try Singularity or another TPV and see if that works. I really don't see how you can blame LL for your PC issues.

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Same here, Summer.  After spending the last 6 years in SL moving verrrrrrrry slowly and having to wait up to 15 min. for a new area to rez in for me, I'm still giddy to be able to be able to move around at higher draw distances, see what's in the distance and have no lag!!!!  (Singularity user here as well.)

It was an amazing experience a few days ago to be tp'd to a busy sim by a friend who said, "Let me know when you're all rezzed in" and before he got the sentence out...I was!!!!  And this is still just using the Intel onboard graphics because I *still* haven't gotten around to going to the store to buy a better PSU and necessary connectors so I can properly install my graphics card.

[Czari Zenovka]

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iceing Braveheart wrote:

I have also seen countless posts with amd users posting second life is not compatible with there pc's with so many compatibility issues highly I recommend you savour and enjoy every last second of second life like it is the last as this business may go under if it cannot maintain clients or bring in new as

there software appears to be incompatible with new pc's

and laptops ect preventing new users from joining sl and incompatible with amd based pc's preventing new and old users from continuing to play or from joining sl

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(Bolding mine)

You keep referring to "new pc's."   My current PC is only three months old and runs SL amazingly well.  From your other posts it seems that the graphics card is your issue with SL.  My (currently uninstalled) graphics card is an nVidia GeForce GTX 660 SC which I purchased after doing a TON of research plus this card being recommended by others in the forum using this card or one in the same family.

Have you done any research online to see if others are having the same issues as you in SL with your vid card?  (And I don't mean contacting LL.)

At any rate, the issue isn't "new PCs."

[Czari Zenovka]

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KatTruewalker wrote:

 

Maybe what I'm looking for is LL to respond to the concerns of it's users, not by applying more restrictive T&C's or implementing updates which are less than game ready, but by entering a real discussion with it's paying customers.  After all, we are the lifeblood of this company and this platform, we pay their salaries, fund their improvements, I think a lot of them forget that point.  It's no different to real life....what we want is value for money and an open and honest discussion of the problems that exist and what measures are being planned to deal with them.

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I agree with you; however, over the past year or so LL has become less responsive to its users - going so far as to make jiras private when they used to be one great method of troubleshooting and there were times when SL users were able to solve an issue that LL had not.

We have these conversations quite a bit on the Merchants Forum.  In one of them, Rodvik Linden aka Rod Humble was called out by a merchant.  He made a couple of responses on this page. (#96, #99, #100) and, afaik, that was the last response, although he has been known to post occasionally on a third-party SL thread.

Lots of unhappy campers on the lack of support by LL.

[Czari Zenovka]

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KatTruewalker wrote:

I know, I agree with you, thank you... but what iceing would like to do and finds frustrating....is that his current hardware is not supported which is ruining his experience of a place he enjoys being in.

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I understand the frustration as one who could barely do anything in SL the last year or so because I had a very old PC.  I totally relate to not being able to go places one enjoys or even being able to go anywhere with good friends.  I'm just not understanding the "new PC" issue - as I've said, I now have a new PC that works wonderfully in SL so I (and others who want to help) are looking at what is causing this for Iceing.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Bobbie Faulds wrote:

1024 x 1024 is still higher than most textures need. Higher isn't necessarily better and does contribute hugely to lag. In fact, it's probably one of the major contributors to performance degredation.

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Totally agree.  When I took classes on Gimp in SL, this is something our instructor talked about a LOT.  She said some of it is just due to not knowing and when new creators saw "everyone else" (she was talking about 2007-2008ish) using 1024x1024 textures decided that was the way to go.  The instructor creates a lot of jewelry and says she has gotten down to an 8x8 texture for tiny details but still sees people using 1024's even for those.

I use the 8x8 transparent texture she provided (or I just turn the slider to 100% transparency, depending of the item is one I will put for sale or just my own use) and use 256x256 textures for my vendor ads.  I don't think I have used a 1024 in any of my builds thus far - 512x512 has been the largest I've needed for the amount of detail I need.

[PeterCanessa Oh]

(And @ Bobbie) I agree that a 1024 x 1024 texture is not usually needed.  I was just pointing out the current limit.

Having said that I have used that size, albeit with multiple images tiled on it.  One 1MB image is less of a load than 4 0.25 (512 x 512) ones, simply because of the file-handling overhead.  Of course, that only works if you're going to USE all 4 images - or 16 if they're 256 x 256.  In fact the main time I tile images is when they are an 'odd' size (not powers of 2) and I can squeeze more in that way.  It's all about using different parts of the same texture with different offsets, repeats and rotations.

There is one building texture in the library ('pine planks' I think, but can't remember) that I used in about 6 ways to make a log-cabin where the exterior and interior walls, floor, ceiling and some 'features' all looked very different but only required the one image to be cached.

[Like mesh, any fewl can do it but doing it well requires a bit of thinking]

[iceing Braveheart]

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Summer Tison wrote:

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iceing Braveheart wrote:

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Summer Tison wrote:

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iceing Braveheart wrote:

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Care to explain elaborate how I am having pc issues?

like I said on starting post for thread I am sorry I bought a new pc and linden lab's is not compatible with it I will just go use other apps and stop using this one it is very simple if it makes you feel better go ahead blame my pc but I am sure other companies will enjoy the money I spend there as for second life I have tried countless times contacting them and they just do not give a damn so there is nothing I can do but leave

I have also seen countless posts with amd users posting second life is not compatible with there pc's with so many compatibility issues highly I recommend you savour and enjoy every last second of second life like it is the last as this business may go under if it cannot maintain clients or bring in new as there software appears to be incompatible with new pc's and laptops ect preventing new users from joining sl and incompatible with amd based pc's preventing new and old users from continuing to play or from joining sl

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Care to explain how LL is to blame because YOUR pc isn't working with SL? Surely that is an issue your end, and as I explained I have a new Laptop that runs SL perfectly well, so it's not ALL new PCs/Laptops that are having this problem.

You're full of doom and gloom, you seem to think I care if you go elsewhere with your money, what a strange conclusion you made there. 

Did you buy your new PC with SL in mind? I know when I had to renew my Laptop I bought the best I could within my budget knowing I would want access to SL. You have been given some good advice on this thread, it's your choice if you want to take it, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

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it is common for all stores and retailers to sell off all old and even liquidate it that doesn't mean it is modern because you bought something several years old new at best buy that is like going to a flee market and buying action figures that are 40 years old and still in the package and saying they are modern you just bought them post your cpu and gpu and we will see if we can find the real age

[iceing Braveheart]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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iceing Braveheart wrote:

I have also seen countless posts with amd users posting second life is not compatible with there pc's with so many compatibility issues highly I recommend you savour and enjoy every last second of second life like it is the last as this business may go under if it cannot maintain clients or bring in new as

there software appears to be incompatible with new pc's

and laptops ect preventing new users from joining sl and incompatible with amd based pc's preventing new and old users from continuing to play or from joining sl

---

(Bolding mine)

You keep referring to "new pc's."   My current PC is only three months old and runs SL amazingly well.  From your other posts it seems that the graphics card is your issue with SL.  My (currently uninstalled) graphics card is an nVidia GeForce GTX 660 SC which I purchased after doing a TON of research plus this card being recommended by others in the forum using this card or one in the same family.

Have you done any research online to see if others are having the same issues as you in SL with your vid card?  (And I don't mean contacting LL.)

At any rate, the issue isn't "new PCs."

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The 600 series has been retired and replaced by the 700 series 

The geforce 660 is about a one year old card, as it launched on September 13, 2012

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_600_Series

it is now almost 2014 which will bring about the series 800

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_800_Series

you should of went with a 760 for some real power 

http://www.hwcompare.com/14801/geforce-gtx-660-vs-geforce-gtx-760/

http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gtx-760/videos

personally I would never recommend a 600 card period unless it was nearly free 

and yes everyone with a new modern pc/laptop ect has this problem it is completely across the board

the issue is new pc's but thx for trying

[PeterCanessa Oh]

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iceing Braveheart wrote:

//and yes everyone with a new modern pc/laptop ect has this problem it is completely across the board...

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Aha!  Thanks for that, I'll be sure to look out for all the complaints from people with new modern pc/laptop etc.  There must be millions since it's completely across the board.  Or is it only ones where all components were manufactured within the last year ... month ... week?

LOL.

Be serious, please.

[iceing Braveheart]

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PeterCanessa Oh wrote:

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iceing Braveheart wrote:

//and yes everyone with a new modern pc/laptop ect has this problem it is completely across the board...

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Aha!  Thanks for that, I'll be sure to look out for all the complaints from people with new modern pc/laptop etc.  There must be millions since it's completely across the board.  Or is it only ones where all components were manufactured within the last year ... month ... week?

LOL.

Be serious, please.

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Okay seriously this only effects Second Life software so don't fear buying a new modern laptop or pc ect as it will work anywhere else in the world or web just not with second life software. for second life software your gonna want to check city land fills and hope you find something that still functions

[iceing Braveheart]

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KarenMichelle Lane wrote:

and yet another AMD Crash related Viewer release

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Release/3.6.8.282367

Release Notes

This release addresses a startup crash on latest AMD Catalyst drivers: 13.9, 13.10, 13.11.

 

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That is great for AMD users but I don't have a AMD gpu although I did still download the client and test it and it doesn't work 

this is my verified spec

http://valid.canardpc.com/3t0rvm

and this is what sl says my spec is

Second Life 3.6.8 (282367) Oct 14 2013 22:38:57 (Second Life Release)

Release Notes

You are at 215.2, 44.8, 22.1 in High Times located at sim9232.agni.lindenlab.com (216.82.42.168:13005)

SLURL: http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/High%20Times/215/45/22

(global coordinates 257,239.0, 313,901.0, 22.1)

Second Life Server 13.10.03.281989

Release Notes

CPU: Intel® Core i7-4770K CPU @ 3.50GHz (3506.11 MHz)

Memory: 16323 MB

OS Version: Microsoft Windows 7 64-bit (Build 7600)

Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation

Graphics Card: GeForce GTX 780/PCIe/SSE2

Windows Graphics Driver Version: 9.18.0013.2723

OpenGL Version: 4.3.0

libcurl Version: libcurl/7.21.1 OpenSSL/0.9.8q zlib/1.2.5 c-ares/1.7.1

J2C Decoder Version: KDU v7.0

Audio Driver Version: FMOD Ex 4.44.12

Qt Webkit Version: 4.7.1 (version number hard-coded)

Voice Server Version: Not Connected

Built with MSVC version 1600

Packets Lost: 0/619 (0.0%)

[PeterCanessa Oh]

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iceing Braveheart wrote:

Okay seriously this only effects Second Life software so don't fear buying a new modern laptop or pc ect as it will work anywhere else in the world or web just not with second life software. for second life software your gonna want to check city land fills and hope you find something that still functions

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Nope, still waiting for you to be serious.  Hyperbole doesn't cut it.  Ridiculous isn't even close.

[iceing Braveheart]

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PeterCanessa Oh wrote:

Aha!  Thanks for that, I'll be sure to look out for all the complaints from people with new modern pc/laptop etc.  There must be millions since it's completely across the board.  Or is it only ones where all components were manufactured within the last year ... month ... week?

LOL.

Be serious, please.

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iceing Braveheart wrote:

Okay seriously this only effects Second Life software so don't fear buying a new modern laptop or pc ect as it will work anywhere else in the world or web just not with second life software. for second life software your gonna want to check city land fills and hope you find something that still functions

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Nope, still waiting for you to be serious.

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How did u make 4.4k posts trolling people out like this?

I am just curious why your account hasn't been terminated yet is all 

this is just an example

manufacturers usually send there hardware off to reviewers to be tested and reviewed before they are launched and they are tested in benchmarks and across a ton of games the release date means nothing for when a card will start to function you can use a card the second they release the beta drivers for the card or earlier sometimes so a week means nothing in reference to your jabs at modern hardware is unrelated to modern hardware it is a second life only issue