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NikCruze

Aviation - Beyond a joke LL - please sort this.

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PeterCanessa Oh wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


PeterCanessa Oh wrote:


It also remains the point that the very fundamental structure of SL (and OpenSim) is the 'sim' - fixed at 256m in SL.

 

This is something I have wondered about, SIM (Region) size.

Maybe it was a hardware and software limitation that dictated the 256m when SL was started.

But does that limitation still exist today?  Consider the number of SIMs (Regions) per Server today. 
...

I haven't looked at the (OpenSim) server-side code in any detail so I can't give you definitive answers.  As far as I know some OpenSim, or similar SL-derived, grids have a different or even variable sim-size so it would appear that 256m is not a fixed limit.  The 
number
of sims per server is definitely adjustable, with typical examples that you mention.

The thing is it is technically better for hand-offs for the sims concerned to be on the same machine - the actual data doesn't have to move, after all - but better for performance (apart from sim-crossings) to have a whole server dedicated to one sim.  The tradeoff is something that LL can do something about - which is why there are the different types of region - but who to favour?  Ideally something like aviation, and other travel-targetted things, would want BIG sims with relatively little in them.  Sims designed for walking-pace want detail rather than space.

Every program that attempts to map a large space has to make a decision between size/complexity of 'scene' versus complexity for scene changes.  I'm sure there that if they were designing SL from scratch LL would reach different decisions but almost any change at the moment would render whole areas unusable for existing users of one group or another.  It remains the case that SL is designed to divide resources by area, not by character or any other way things could be sliced and diced.

It would be interesting to hear from anyone with more experience of running another grid, but I doubt that they read this forum.

When "Open Sim" came into being and people started touting its benefits I heard some say they were not limited to the 256sqm any more. 

What I hadn't considered when I made my statement until just now is the real bug-a-boo in the equation is the number of Avatars a Simulator can handle.  I won't even begin to pretend the math but the people working on Virtual World Standards do break it down to pure mathematical equations.  The most thorough article on the subject I have read was written in 2009.  At that time they stated,

"This flexibility comes with high computational complexity; for example, the resulting scalability of Second Life is on the order of at most 25-30 users per server."

That was the maximum number of Avatars on a Server before Server performance began to degrade, i.e. Server Lag.

It really does come down to pure math, the amount of Data that is being handled.  That is after all what "Land Impact" is actually calculating.  LL is just stating for us in laymen terms something that has a lot of math behind it.

Supposedly as I understand it, LL does use an algo to determine what SIMs share a Server.  SIM's with a history of high use are placed on Servers with other SIM's with a history of low use.

I'd hate to be the person trying to figure out all that math.

I don't know why, but the old LSL app for Finding Your Laggy Neighbor (which SIMs you were sharing a Server with) is no longer available.

 

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Yep to all that.  As I mentioned, allocating resources by (land) area is not the only way to do things but the advantage is that each sim 'knows' who can hear chat and similar range-related things.  If servers were avatar-based, for instance, it becomes much easier to map continuous spaces but much harder to find out who else is there.  Etc, etc, etc.

[Possibly boring historical waffle; I'm like that] 10 years ago when Morrowind came out I loved the huge, seamless, landscape but was continually hitting "Please wait ..." messages running around it faster than the incremental loading could fetch data from disk.  Neverwinter Nights, from around the same time, used the completely different model of loading the whole of a smaller region and having loading/cut-scenes when you, rarely, entered or left it.

It all gets a whole lot worse, of course, in an unoptimised, ever-changing, online, massively-multiplayer, environment ^^

I won't go into technicalities but an environment designed for aviation dog-fighting, for instance, will have a very simple - but very big - 'map' and very few, pre-installed, aircraft models.  It's major headache is then "only" communicating each player's position/orientation/configuration/vector to the others - and there'll rarely be more than a dozen or two in each game.  For the same reason the viewer for such an environment only has to scale/rotate the models it already knows from the received information.  You can imagine how much simpler both sides of that are compared to SL.

 

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It has been a couple years since I did any more in depth reading on the subject but at the time one of the proposed methods for overcoming the limitations was distributed computing.  The primary objection to this was the problem of latency.

If I am understanding correctly, this is the model that Phillip Rosedale is now exploring with High Fidelity.

If he can find a solution to the latency problem we may very well see a new Virtual World with capabilities far beyond what we now have in SL.

One of the questions he has looked at is how much latency is acceptable.  He discovered that in some situations it took very very little for an experience to begin to degrade.

It does make me think that he still has the vision of Hiro's Metaverse in his dreams.

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PeterCanessa Oh wrote:


NikCruze wrote:

... sometimes just venting on a forum feels good y'know...
.

See, that's fine and understandable, v
enting we can all sympathise with.

In your OP, though, you have "
Why oh why do you, LL," and "
Please LL, look  at what you did" - which rather makes it look as if you're trying to address LL.  That ain't us.

It also remains the point that the very fundamental structure of SL (and OpenSim) is the 'sim' - fixed at 256m in SL.  The IT handshake and data-handoff for changing sims has got better and better over the years but is always going to be a weak point.  No problem for walking or even flying at avatar speeds, but as I pointed out in another thread a WWII aircraft would typically need to cross 40 sims per minute!  It isn't going to happen and, whatever you as an individual group may have spent on aircraft, LL isn't going to rebuild the system from the ground up (pun) to make aviation any easier.

SL wasn't designed for it,

SL wasn't built for it.

LL didn't do it.

Some residents got together and built/operated something for which SL isn't a suitable platform.

Congratulations to them for their persistance and achievement.

But when it doesn't work like you want it to it isn't going to be a priority for LL.

Because SL is, inherently, not a suitable platform for aviation.

So you should be suprised (and impressed) at what DOES work..

Or back-up your "threats" and leave for somewhere that does support aviation properly.

 

A few years ago SL wasn't a suitable platform for anything, animations, clothing, hard core bdsm (lol), even flexi hair. Now it is, and can be for aviation and vehicles in general as well. Sim crossings never used to be this bad, and if LL actually tried to fix them they could, and it would not take a very long time. Also these script errors that a lot of people are having generally tend to fix themselves.

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SL is an eternal experiment.  This is borne out by the fact that 4 different server versions are running on the main grid at all times.  As LL have endeavored to expand and refine LSL through the years, occasionally scripts are either temporarily broken or even at times permanently broken as functions stop reacting as previously expected.  They try not to break content with these changes, but it happens. Sometimes it is just changes made to one of the Server Release Candidate channels, and is dependent on the sim you are on and what version/channel it is running, and is probably just temporary until they work out the bug.  Sometimes scripts can fail by region.  This is life on the grid.  Keep your expectations in line with reality and learn to roll with the punches.   

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