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ToS Changes - why?


Phil Deakins
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Thanks. I am a bit clearer now and I can sympathise. Of course I have not been aware of any of the problems you may have experienced with mesh template sellers. The question of the rights LL demands affects both mesh and template sellers equally, as you say. However, it doesn't completely stop either. They can accept the terms. It's a matter of choice. The licensed texture problem actually prevents mesh makers from making anything except the untextured templates you don't like. I am afraid they are bound to see that effect as the overriding one at the moment.

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Perrie Juran wrote:

<threadjack>

I'm being self serving here by pimping my own thread,  but while we are on the subject of textures and building in SL I'd like to call attention to my thread:  
.

</threadjack>

Since this is my thread, I'll send you the bill for your advertisement.

 

 

;)

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Drongle McMahon wrote:

Thanks. I am a bit clearer now and I can sympathise. Of course I have not been aware of any of the problems you may have experienced with mesh template sellers. The question of the rights LL demands affects both mesh and template sellers equally, as you say. However, it doesn't completely stop either. They can accept the terms. It's a matter of choice. The licensed texture problem actually prevents mesh makers from making anything except the untextured templates you don't like.
I am afraid they are bound to see that effect as the overriding one at the moment.

Each person, and group of people, sees their own problem as being the overriding one :)

Trinity is suggesting that the focus needs to be on trying to get the ToS changed because of everybody that's affected, rather than each group majoring their own case. After all, everyone who dislikes the new ToS wants exactly the same thing.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

Trinity is suggesting
that the focus needs to be on trying to
get the ToS changed
because of everybody that's affected, rather than each group majoring their own case.
After all, everyone who dislikes the new ToS wants exactly the same thing.


 

I have never met anyone who liked ANY ToS they have to sign. 

PS I know, this one is different... right?  

 

 

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All that is true but it wasn't the point I was driving at. 

 

These models might be ineffecient and no doubt some people at LL know that, but can they convince the people who make decisions? 

If Rod thinks he can revolutionize LL's business model, get rid of the pesky SLers by producing a new revenue stream based on existing uploads, and increase total profits at the same time, is he going to want to hear "you can't do that because no one will want to buy such inefficient mesh for their projects" from those members of LL staff who have the technical eptitude to tell him this?  Is it a message he will be receptive to?

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Anaiya Arnold wrote:

All that is true but it wasn't the point I was driving at. 

 

These models might be inefficient and no doubt some people at LL know that, but can they convince the people who make decisions? 

If Rod thinks he can revolutionize LL's business model, get rid of the pesky SLers by producing a new revenue stream based on existing uploads, and increase total profits at the same time, is he going to want to hear "you can't do that because no one will want to buy such inefficient mesh for their projects" from those members of LL staff who have the technical eptitude to tell him this?  Is it a message he will be receptive to?

I don't think he's the kind of guy that makes a habit of listening to, "You can't do that" which is likely the mentality that got him this, and previous lucrative positions. I also don't think any of his employees would be foolish enough to say something like that to his face, assuming they took the time to readup on who was gonna be their new boss. Receptive to it? No, not if that's the business model he sets out to implement. I do wonder If he's staying so quiet, because everything is playing out according to plan. Out with the Old, and In with the new. Every "Major" Player in Second Life is moving out, because of the new TOS. Players that had significant pull to sway the masses. Some Highly Regarded Second Life residents are leaving, residents with enough respect to cause a good amount of concern, over their departure. seems to be causing (I imagine in the eyes of the instigator of this plan) a purge of "bad blood".  If you purge the soul of Second Life, then you have a body to have your way with however you like. At this point even if the TOS was reverted back to how it was (sadly I don't think it will be) I'm pretty much heartbroken by the lack of sympathy, in LL of the damage this is causing. I don't plan on selling my work in SL, I'll probably visit some nice looking worlds, when I get a better VideoCard, but business here no.

 

EDIT: The crossed out sentence was lazy. I apologize. The sentence in green, should convey, what I actualy meant. I know I admit, it was really off.

FAIL!!! >>> :smileysad: ... :smileyvery-happy:

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

I have no idea if these businesses are closing due to the new TOS, but Bliss Couture is closing (with a 90% off sale and hunt currently in progress) and someone told me Alphamale is also closing.

Ok, so again....

This too stores are closing, yes, but this is not related to the TOS changes. 

Bliss couture has announced the closing down of the shop in last spring and this is related to RL and not SL.

Alphamale has announced the closing weeks ago (but yes after the TOS changes); anyway this is not related to the new TOS. They are moving and going on Blacklace brand, and just stoping Alphamale. And AFAK they never talked about the TOS as a reason for their decision. At least publicaly.

You have already been told about this in another thread.

Its really, but really important, we check our infos before distribute them. The risk is that it can make us loose our credibility  and we really dont need this.

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RiftRaven wrote:


Anaiya Arnold wrote:

All that is true but it wasn't the point I was driving at. 

 

These models might be inefficient and no doubt some people at LL know that, but can they convince the people who make decisions? 

If Rod thinks he can revolutionize LL's business model, get rid of the pesky SLers by producing a new revenue stream based on existing uploads, and increase total profits at the same time, is he going to want to hear "you can't do that because no one will want to buy such inefficient mesh for their projects" from those members of LL staff who have the technical eptitude to tell him this?  Is it a message he will be receptive to?

I don't think he's the kind of guy that makes a habit of listening to, "You can't do that" which is likely the mentality that got him this, and previous lucrative positions. I also don't think any of his employees would be foolish enough to say something like that to his face, assuming they took the time to readup on who was gonna be their new boss. Receptive to it? No, not if that's the business model he sets out to implement. I do wonder If he's staying so quiet, because everything is playing out according to plan. Out with the Old, and In with the new.
Every "Major" Player in Second Life is moving out, because of the new TOS. Players that had significant pull to sway the masses
. It seems to be causing (I imagine in the eyes of the instigator of this plan) a purge of "bad blood".  If you purge the soul of Second Life, then you have a body to have your way with however you like. At this point even if the TOS was reverted back to how it was (sadly I don't think it will be) I'm pretty much heartbroken by the lack of sympathy, in LL of the damage this is causing. I don't plan on selling my work in SL, I'll probably visit some nice looking worlds, when I get a better VideoCard, but business here no.

And you know this how?

For one thing there isn't any SL user who has "significant pull to sway the masses".

And for another, who is a major player? The biggest of all is Anshe but she can't sway the masses, not even by pulling out. I suggest that what you perceive as "every major player" is nothing but a relatively few people who have either pulled out or have expressed an intention to pull out. I also suggest that those who go are not major players, simply because they don't make very much RL money from SL. Why do I suggest that? Because anyone who is making good RL money form SL would be really silly to cut it off on principle. The odd one or two may, and I even doubt that, but not many.

We simply don't know why LL has changed the ToS to what it is now. All we have are theories and thoughts. It may be that nothing will change other than the ToS, so anyone who makes plenty of RL money from SL would be very foolish to pull out and cut the money off, merely on the strength of theories and thoughts or principle.

Therefore, I don't accept that "Every "Major" Player in Second Life is moving out, because of the new TOS. "

 

ETA: Consider this. Take a user who makes plenty of RL money from SL by, for example, spending many hours making an excellent texture, uploading it and either selling it or using it on an object and selling the object. And doing it repeatedly. With the new ToS, the user still makes plenty of money doing that and LL hasn't used the texture or object for anything else. The user is no worse off than before. But the user doesn't like the new ToS and quits the SL business, thinking, "That'll teach 'em to steal my rights!" or "I won't have LL using the fruit of my labours for their own ends". What is the user left with? Plenty of hours to make plenty of excellent textures but nowhere to sell them, and no income from the effort. Which is the more desirable? Pulling out at this point would be a silly thing to do.

I just can't see any sensible person, who makes good money from SL, doing that. At the very least, a sensible person would continue selling and making money, while they wait to see what, if anything, LL does with their newly-claimed rights. Quitting at this point makes no sense at all for anyone who makes some reasonably good money from SL. If I were that person, I'd continue creating and uploading new textures and, if LL subsequently uses their newly-claimed rights in any way that's detrimental to me, then I'd decide what to do, but not before then.

Bear in mind that, if LL subsequently uses the stuff for their own profit, I wouldn't have made that profit so, even then, it wouldn't be to my detriment. I would naturally, and enormously, dislike LL having the rights, of course, but I wouldn't cut off my nose to spite my face in advance of seeing what happens. If and when LL actually does something with my, or other people's, work, I'd give it all a good deal of thought before deciding what to do about it, but quitting a money-making business now would be a really silly thing to do so.

Imo, the only people who are likely to quit their SL businesses at this point are those who only do it as a hobby but don't make much money from it, if any money at all, and, whatever "major players" are, such people certainly don't fall into that category.

One more thing. If you imagine that some of those who make good money from SL haven't thought of it like that, then you would be wrong. I can assure you that anyone who is considering cutting off a significant supply of good money will most definitely think of it like that.

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And this is why LL should have kept up the morning meetings..

to answer questions that people have,..

 

they should know by now that panic is gonna happen with every change..

their lack of communication gets them what they deserve..

 

then again..they may just not give a damn anymore anyways with the way they are distancing themselves from their user base..

 

 

 

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

And this is why LL should have kept up the morning meetings..

to answer questions that people have,..

 

they should know by now that panic is gonna happen with every change..

their lack of communication gets them what they deserve..

 

then again..they may just not give a damn anymore anyways with the way they are distancing themselves from their user base..

 

 

 

I totally agree Ceka. At least if there was a real communication and we could talk with an interlocutor from LL we could understand and be heard. 

But there is noone we can talk with, and this is one of the rare company i know where its almost impossible to reach someone when we need to talk to them. Its all locked ! All other companies ive known all allong my life offer an office with an interlocutor to reach if there is any problem.

Here no... its like they are hiding.. or not existing.. and i cant get used with that.. it always puzzles me.

When i see what they did with L$ resellers in last spring, im not really optimist btw... They indeed steped back for the L$ purchases, but i bet these resellers had a big part of their benefits from the l$ sales. They were really more powerful than us, poor creators, like Anshe Chung. and nevertheless they broke half of their business... so well.... 

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I haven't followed this argument in detail (it's boring for those who have no intellectual property to worry about) but from a legal point of view (and I should also point out that I am not a lawyer, but I have successfully, and lucratively, sued a number of major legal firms for incompetence) I would not have thought it possible that LL could unilaterally take the rights to EXISTING intellectual property (ie before the ToS was changed) without paying compensation to the owners of that property.

That would have to be tested in court, although I am pretty sure that British courts would insist on a fair recompense of originators, but only if LL profited by their assumption of property rights, which seems unlikely.

From the point at which the ToS changed, however, creators who ticked the box gave away their rights.

It seems simple to me. Don't make anything new. Just keep on selling the old stuff.

That stagnation will hasten the demise of LL, of course, but that has appeared inevitable for some time now.

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Awe Thor wrote:

I haven't followed this argument in detail (it's boring for those who have no intellectual property to worry about) but from a legal point of view (and I should also point out that I am not a lawyer, but I have successfully, and lucratively, sued a number of major legal firms for incompetence) I would not have thought it possible that LL could unilaterally take the rights to EXISTING intellectual property (ie before the ToS was changed) without paying compensation to the owners of that property.

That would have to be tested in court, although I am pretty sure that British courts would insist on a fair recompense of originators, but only if LL profited by their assumption of property rights, which seems unlikely.

From the point at which the ToS changed, however, creators who ticked the box gave away their rights.

It seems simple to me. Don't make anything new. Just keep on selling the old stuff.

That stagnation will hasten the demise of LL, of course, but that has appeared inevitable for some time now.

Myself i don't think they did this change to get into the freebie for profit  game..

Most things like this are because they have to be done so they can handle someones product that gets sold and used on the grid or on the market..

 

plus the TOS is not only for just second life anymore..

they have other products  that joined it as well..

they really should have kept this one to itself and made one or each product it's own..

 

there was an article i had a link to that someone from LL was trying to explain all this..

but why they did it in an interview rather than to their users is beyond me..

 

why not prevent a forrest fire rather than trying to put one out in full blaze hehehe

 

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RiftRaven wrote:


Anaiya Arnold wrote:

All that is true but it wasn't the point I was driving at. 

 

These models might be inefficient and no doubt some people at LL know that, but can they convince the people who make decisions? 

If Rod thinks he can revolutionize LL's business model, get rid of the pesky SLers by producing a new revenue stream based on existing uploads, and increase total profits at the same time, is he going to want to hear "you can't do that because no one will want to buy such inefficient mesh for their projects" from those members of LL staff who have the technical eptitude to tell him this?  Is it a message he will be receptive to?

I don't think he's the kind of guy that makes a habit of listening to, "You can't do that" which is likely the mentality that got him this, and previous lucrative positions. I also don't think any of his employees would be foolish enough to say something like that to his face, assuming they took the time to readup on who was gonna be their new boss. Receptive to it? No, not if that's the business model he sets out to implement. I do wonder If he's staying so quiet, because everything is playing out according to plan. Out with the Old, and In with the new.
Every "Major" Player in Second Life is moving out, because of the new TOS. Players that had significant pull to sway the masses.
It seems to be causing (I imagine in the eyes of the instigator of this plan) a purge of "bad blood".  If you purge the soul of Second Life, then you have a body to have your way with however you like. At this point even if the TOS was reverted back to how it was (sadly I don't think it will be) I'm pretty much heartbroken by the lack of sympathy, in LL of the damage this is causing. I don't plan on selling my work in SL, I'll probably visit some nice looking worlds, when I get a better VideoCard, but business here no.

Please list all of these "major players." All of the major stores in SL that i go to are still putting out new content weekly. Bare Rose. Grumble, Redgrave, Michigans Shack, Kabuki, Katink, Slink, Belleza, Grendels, and many others.

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here is the link to the article

Linden Lab Expresses Regret for Confusion Over New Draconian Terms of Service, Affirms Respect for SL Content Creators (But Were You Really Surprised?)

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2013/09/linden-lab-tos-textures.html

 

i found this one linked from that one as well..it was interesting read..

 

Get Real: ToS Aside, Most Second Life Content Isn't Very Valuable Outside Second Life (Comments of the Week)

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2013/09/second-life-content-tos.html#more

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wow i must have been under a rock the past few weeks, wasn´t aware of that change.

 

i spent 6 month and more on some of my creations, and i uploaded them before the tos change.

imo that is simply evil and at least where i live illegal.

some blog post doesn´t change anything as long as the tos stays unchanged, so it´s meaningless imo.

can i afford a lawyer to sue LL? nope. so looks like LL will succeed with the biggest content theft i ever heard about...

copy botters stole single items, LL on the other hand doesnt care about peanuts like that, they steal it all...

 

breaks my heart :-(

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Yuriko Nishi wrote:

wow i must have been under a rock the past few weeks, wasn´t aware of that change.

 

i spent 6 month and more on some of my creations, and i uploaded them before the tos change.

imo that is simply evil and at least where i live illegal.

some blog post doesn´t change anything as long as the tos stays unchanged, so it´s meaningless imo.

can i afford a lawyer to sue LL? nope. so looks like LL will succeed with the biggest content theft i ever heard about...

copy botters stole single items, LL on the other hand doesnt care about peanuts like that, they steal it all...

 

breaks my heart :-(

Alone and isolated indeed we cant do a lot. But maybe if we join together our efforts they will hear us. We've already created a group "United Content Creators of SL" inworld, you can join it anytime. It grows everyday and we are only at our first steps.

That's said, ive just created an account on Kitely, and im going to see what i can import there among my creations and artworks. At least ill have a safe backup somewhere of all my creations, whatever will happen.

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Yuriko Nishi wrote:

wow i must have been under a rock the past few weeks, wasn´t aware of that change.

 

i spent 6 month and more on some of my creations, and i uploaded them before the tos change.

imo that is simply evil and at least where i live illegal.

some blog post doesn´t change anything as long as the tos stays unchanged, so it´s meaningless imo.

can i afford a lawyer to sue LL? nope. so looks like LL will succeed with the biggest content theft i ever heard about...

copy botters stole single items, LL on the other hand doesnt care about peanuts like that, they steal it all...

 

breaks my heart :-(

I'm not saying any article will override a TOS..

i just posted it because it's the only thing i've heard them comment on it so far..

 

they really need to translate things when it takes a lawyer  to translate it for thier users..

i don't know if there has ever been a company that sucked so bad in so many areas of communication that i have ever delt with before..

 

they will probably lose 1% and still keep on ticking and be fine with that..

 

really though..i don't think they are going to steal your content..

but it sure does suck them sounding like they can..

 

a TOS like this would not have a good chance in winning being so one sided in a court of law..

but i understand people not wanting to risk  their work as well and have to take it that far..

 

it would all come down to if the judge felt the TOS was fair more than if someone had agreed to it or not..

 

all someone would have to say is..how was i supossed to get in to shut down my businesses if i did not click agree your honor? *puppy eyes blink blink*

 

 

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

here is the link to the article

Linden Lab Expresses Regret for Confusion Over New Draconian Terms of Service, Affirms Respect for SL Content Creators (But Were You Really Surprised?)

 

i found this one linked from that one as well..it was interesting read..

 

Get Real: ToS Aside, Most Second Life Content Isn't Very Valuable Outside Second Life (Comments of the Week)


Wagner has always been a poor excuse of an apologist for LL.

If HE was to GET REAL about the letter LL sent him he would shred it to pieces over the subterfuge that is in it.

While it may be true that LL has no intent to sell for their own profit the intellectual property creators upload, it does not change the reality that under the new TOS that they can.

The great subterfuge in that letter is the statement that they need the right to 'sell' and/or 're-sell' in order (for SL) to function.

First of all, 'selling' and/or reselling other people's goods implies that they have purchased it first.  That has never been the case except in rare instances where they have bought specific content such as the Troobles for promotional purposes.

Secondly, they have never needed this right and don't need it in order to act as agents in the transaction.  Both In World and on the Market Place they are simply the delivery agent.  They are a Service provider.

 

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:


Czari Zenovka wrote:

I have no idea if these businesses are closing due to the new TOS, but Bliss Couture is closing (with a 90% off sale and hunt currently in progress) and someone told me Alphamale is also closing.

Ok, so again....

This too stores are closing, yes, but this is not related to the TOS changes. 

Bliss couture has announced the closing down of the shop in last spring and this is related to RL and not SL.

Alphamale has announced the closing weeks ago (but yes after the TOS changes); anyway this is not related to the new TOS. They are moving and going on Blacklace brand, and just stoping Alphamale. And AFAK they never talked about the TOS as a reason for their decision. At least publicaly.

You have already been told about this in another thread.

Its really, but really important, we check our infos before distribute them. The risk is that it can make us loose our credibility  and we really dont need this.

I stated I had no idea if they were closing for the TOS reasons.  I'm not plugged into the fashion scene; a friend knows my love of wearing gowns and told me about the Bliss/closing sale and another friend mentioned Alphamale, which I had never heard of prior.

I was not *stating* this was the reason for the closing - I made sure to add that as a caveat.

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

And this is why LL should have kept up the morning meetings..

to answer questions that people have,..

 

they should know by now that panic is gonna happen with every change..

their lack of communication gets them what they deserve..

 

then again..they may just not give a damn anymore anyways with the way they are distancing themselves from their user base..

 

 

 

Very good point on the meetings, Ceka.  I do think they (meaning LL as a whole, there are likely *some* employees who do care ie. if Torley is still a LL employee) don't care anymore.

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:

here is the link to the article

Linden Lab Expresses Regret for Confusion Over New Draconian Terms of Service, Affirms Respect for SL Content Creators (But Were You Really Surprised?)

 

i found this one linked from that one as well..it was interesting read..

 

Get Real: ToS Aside, Most Second Life Content Isn't Very Valuable Outside Second Life (Comments of the Week)


Wagner has always been a poor excuse of an apologist for LL.

If HE was to GET REAL about the letter LL sent him he would shred it to pieces over the subterfuge that is in it.

While it may be true that LL has no intent to sell for their own profit the intellectual property creators upload, it does not change the reality that under the new TOS that they can.

The great subterfuge in that letter is the statement that they need the right to 'sell' and/or 're-sell' in order (for SL) to function.

First of all, 'selling' and/or reselling other people's goods implies that they have purchased it first.  That has never been the case except in rare instances where they have bought specific content such as the Troobles for promotional purposes.

Secondly, they have never needed this right and don't need it in order to act as agents in the transaction.  Both In World and on the Market Place they are simply the delivery agent.  They are a Service provider.

 

i would say..just like in the past..if you want to know what really changed for second life in the TOS..

just look in the official sections of the KB like we always have done in the past..

we just did this like a month ago with some other change they made..

 

if the pages are not modified..then  it shoudl be clear which part in the TOS is referring to second life..

because they will say second life in there..where i didn't see it mentioned in the TOS..

they are both part of the TOS and both official..

 

they have a bunch of products clumped up together in one TOS and no brand names are given..

so if things changed for second life..it would be in there but also the ones that strictly pertain to second life will be in their official linden kb policies and FAQ's like always..

 

the only reason i put this guys article up there was to put up the only response i seen from LL

 

it wasn't to defend them or to do anything else but say..here is the only thing i ever found them saying about it..

 

i figure it's probably better than the nothing they gave us so far as far as hearing from them on it..

hehehehe

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