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Updated LL TOS Claims FULL RIGHTS to ALL CONTENT


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HisaDrug wrote:

Do they even care that merchants keep SL interesting? So really, they dont even give a spit about merchants huh. We dont have any protection at all. This is just awesome. 

No... Seemingly this company could care less. When you read that BS, TOS, you see LL's true intentions, and it gives you the impression this company is fixin to dump Second Life one way or another. Right now even if they made the TOS reasonable, or reversed it, I would not dedicate my time to start a business in SL, because it's as if I can see LL for what it really is.  This happened right as I was about to go nose deep into an SL bussines. Then all the crap I hear about Copybotting software, jeez what a nightmare. I sympathize for all the residents who invested so much time in SL. It's gonna take a bit, but give it a while, linden lab is gonna take notice of how mesh uploads suddenly slowed to a crawl lol :smileyvery-happy: And I get so PISSED!!! Because I enjoyed reading all the blogs, and the fashion updates, the great things Materials were gonna bring, and discovering new blogs doing different things, suprisingly leaving me in awe of their creations. And now enthusiasm for building and creating is begining to stall. It's a bit sad.

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I truly feel that Im on death row waiting for LL to cut my throat like it was so coming. I can imagine one day a new TOS would pop out as I log saying, they've decided to stop Lindex period thank you very much. Press Agree below to log in. 

Ive been so careful not to violate their precious TOS to stay here as honest as I can be, n as we all are, I'm also being punished for it. Just because I'm just a bank to their company. Are they kidding me? I honestly think its their fault allowing copybot viewers to begin with. They opened that gate to make contents infringement tolerable, n when things get outta their hands, they start abusing the merchants to be compensated for the damages. I can see why they're doing that. Of course they dont care just several growing merchants throw in the towel n leave to be a layresident without an effort to contribute art to SL. Of course they'll still collect dimes from their real estate. But they should know this will make a splash among merchants. 

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Ya know what? You people actually frickin annoy me!

I mean other wimpering and whining in this thread (and maybe others) what have you done about the situation?

Let me tell yaz. since yesterday I've researched the LL management AND the board members (a bunch of venture capitalists who I would guess are the investors). Alot of info can be had by a simple web search on their names-linkedin accounts, EMAILS. Anyone think about that? Anyone actually done something?

Secondly, the top 10 or 20 largest groups constitude a sizable fraction of the SL population. After spending much of yesterday (and today) writing a notecard to them, and a notecard they may freely pass out I sent those out-asking for group notice. Sure...maybe they won't lift a finger, but AT LEAST I AM TRYING? What have you done?

Thirdly, there are some real world companies / organzations with a presence in SL-correct? Anybone considered that maybe they (or more precisely their legal department(s)) would be interested in knowing LL can sell / licence any company logos (or other marks) they upload? So I've contacted a few so far. If someone would like to help doing more that would awesome :)


On top of that I've also submitted news items to a few 'gaming news' websites, dropped my marketplace ads, and as soon as I'm done writing this post I'm funding a grid-wide ad campaign passing out the notecard I've written? (If you want a copy-just IM me). Then I'm gonna to look up merchants with alot of products and start contacting them too!

Soooo..what have you done? Think it won't matter? Quitting before you even try? Yoda would say 'THAT is why you fail!"
I say "quitters NEVER win!."

Look, the officers and board members seem to think this change in TOS will profit them. IF you cut your SL expenditures down you can show them that it is gonna COST them instead. THAT is how you win! Happens all the time. This company or that company gets boycotted, or bad press then they retreat like cowards. LL is no different. Follow the money!

Now is the time to get moving on this, or before long you could see a blazing banner on the marketplace (or viewer login page) where LL is selling stuff YOU CREATED on Amazon (or where ever they want) without giving you a dime. Not even taking you to dinner first.

So how bout yaz stop whining and get off your freaking duffs before it too sore for you to sit down? yes?

 

 

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Kudos for taking initiative. You are not alone and that is probably the best news.

Judging from the number of folks that I haven't seen in bold on my friends list when I log in to make my daily (so far) blog post, this TOS fiasco really has had an effect. Even friends that are not merchants and don't build have very bad tastes in their mouths over this. It doesn't effect them right now, but they can see it can and also how unfair it is.

I have also found news of this on forums of other grids, so more people are hearing about it every day. I spend little money in SL aside from upload costs and those have stopped. I don't think we need an organized boycott, I think the folks that have heard the news are just naturally wary. Many of us are doing what needs to be done and no more.

Waiting for change.

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I do tend to sound like a Brash Azz when I post sometimes, it's only when I go back and edit my post that I notice I need to make it sound not so certifiable. Can't seem to get a handle on properly conveying emotion on a post, down to an exact science. I guess I should of read more growing up instead of shooting aliens or zombies lol. But Aztral your efforts in spreading the unfortunate news, does have me humbled. I'm just not familiar with the many outlets of communication you have mentioned, thus not having thought of them. Also I don't have a presence in Second Life or friends.

 

P.S.

"Aztral Aeon" that's a pretty badass name by the way :smileyvery-happy:

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Thank you!

Finally have my grid-wide AD running (silly graphic took longer than expected). It just hands out a notecard I have written informing people about the TOS, hopely motivating them, then providing some ACTION_ITEMS of things they can do. Dropped some $L into this campaign. $L4k is all I can afford right now, but I'll keep at it.

My resources are limited, but I KNOW some of you have more resources than I do. If you care at all about your content being sold by LL maybe you could drop some change into a networked AD yourself? I have graphic, a notecard and have used 2 ad networks So if you would like help..just let me know :)

Again, this is one part of this crusade. If EVERYONE that reads this thread can tell JUST 3 people about the TOS change (asking them to also tell 3 people),  then before long all residents will at least know. You can at least do that-right?


Or you have a little bit of free time..just IM me. I'm trying to approach this problem on multiple fronts so I have lots of ideas of how YOU CAN HELP :)

 

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Allow me to expand the impact of this wording change .. just a wee bit more.

You are not a Merchant. You really have no desire to sell things or make money in SL. You are one of the new "Social Users" that Linden Lab has so carefully targeted over the past couple of years. You sometimes make stuff, simple things like maybe a couch or a favorite picture for your wall, but making stuff isn't your thing either.

However what you DO enjoy is spending time and real money filling out a true Second Life. You've got your own home, your own houseful of stuff. You've spent a lot of time hanging out with friends, shopping, clubbing and finding just the right selection of things to put your particular flair on YOUR PLACE!

And then Linden Lab announces ... All Your Stuff Are Belong To Us!

Welp, that does that. Close THAT account and go somewhere that the money I spend buys stuff I GET TO KEEP!

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Having followed the many posts and replies about the new TOS from Linden Lab it seems to me that, at the very least, the title of this original post should read  "LL TOS hijacks Full Rights to ALL Content."  

The new TOS can be compared to renting an apartment/house and, after you move in, the landlord informs you that all the furniture you put in the rental unit is now the property of the landlord.

EE

 

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Love the analogy but not QUITE right.

The landlord isn't taking your furniture -- he somehow has a "magical"  way to make duplicates which he can sell without your permission (well the lease got changed and in order to get into your house you had to agree to the new terms), make derivatives of and not give you any credit (this supposing it was hand made furniture) :D.

I don't imagine the folks that buy items in world or on the Marketplace will care too much about what is going on unless their favorite designs start disappearing. The "limited edition" is dead for sure although I have seen offers of that this last week.

Maybe the designer hasn't heard the news.

 

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Most people haven't heard the news.

Of the people I've contacted, 95% had no idea of the change to the TOS. A few thought it always was this way, fewer still did already know.

 

THAT'S WHY IT IS IMPORTANT FOR EVERYONE TO HELP GET THE WORD OUT
:smileywink:

I believe we are in race against time! The faster we can show the number crunchers at LL a dip in their revenue, the faster we can get this TOS change reversed.

 

IF YOU COULD SPEND JUST 5 MINUTES OF YOUR TIME AND HAVE THIS TOS CHANGE GONE-WOULD YOU?

That is really all it will take! Just tell 5 friends, or merchants (ideally) you've purchased from about how LL can now take whatever they've created, then advertise and SELL those items on Amazon (or where ever) not giving the creator a single $L..and ask them to likewise tell 5 people. Then just watch how quickly LL revises their TOS!

Or just ask me if you would like a notecard you may pass out. Passing out a notecard takes 1 second. A simple drag and drop into some chat windows is really fast! And you can do that least to help us all out  - right?

 

 

 

 

 

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I have been following the discussion here on the forum, and on various other sites, but there seems to be an aspect, that hasnt cropped up anywhere, so, let me play the devil's advocate here for a moment, and let me point out a consequence of the 'official' postion held by Linden Lab;
just to make that clear, it is nothing I 'suggest', but it is merely a logical result of how Peter Gray (Linden Lab spokesman) 'explained' the Lab's position regarding the TOS changes;

I quote Peter Gray from http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2013/09/linden-lab-tos-textures.html:

"Linden Lab often acts as an intermediary between Second Life residents (for instance, in its capacity as the operator of the Second Life Marketplace) which necessitates that Linden Lab have certain rights (such as the right to re-sell) in order to effectuate such exchanges or transactions."

So, let's think that through, shall we?
Agreement to the TOS is necessary for the Lab to be able to deliver items on the market place.
So.
What will happen now to all the content, that is on the MP belonging to accounts that havent logged in since the TOS change?
Because strictly speaking those merchants havent agreed to the TOS change, from which follows their products can not be delivered by the Lab, since agreement to the TOS is necessary for that service.
Will all those products be removed and/or set inactive? When is this purge going to happen?

Or can we decuce by argument of contradiction, that since the removal is not happening, that the 'justification' is not valid, ie. the position that the TOS change is necessary for the MP delivery just not true?

Linden Lab, your move.
((Not that I expect a reply, to be honest - the Lab is as usual 'sitting it out' and hopes for the whole thing to 'blow over', - soon to be replaced by another decision we can all get excited about))

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Pandorah Ashdene wrote:

I have been following the discussion here on the forum, and on various other sites, but there seems to be an aspect, that hasnt cropped up anywhere, so, let me play the devil's advocate here for a moment, and let me point out a consequence of the 'official' postion held by Linden Lab;

just to make that clear, it is nothing I 'suggest', but it is merely a logical result of how Peter Gray (Linden Lab spokesman) 'explained' the Lab's position regarding the TOS changes;

 

I quote Peter Gray from

 

"Linden Lab often acts as an intermediary between Second Life residents (for instance, in its capacity as the operator of the Second Life Marketplace) which necessitates that Linden Lab have certain rights (such as the right to re-sell) in order to effectuate such exchanges or transactions."

 

So, let's think that through, shall we?

Agreement to the TOS is necessary for the Lab to be able to deliver items on the market place.

So.

What will happen now to all the content, that is on the MP belonging to accounts that havent logged in since the TOS change?

Because strictly speaking those merchants havent agreed to the TOS change, from which follows their products can not be delivered by the Lab, since agreement to the TOS is necessary for that service.

Will all those products be removed and/or set inactive? When is this purge going to happen?

 

Or can we decuce by argument of contradiction, that since the removal is not happening, that the 'justification' is not valid, ie. the position that the TOS change is necessary for the MP delivery just not true?

 

Linden Lab, your move.

((Not that I expect a reply, to be honest - the Lab is as usual 'sitting it out' and hopes for the whole thing to 'blow over', - soon to be replaced by another decision we can all get excited about))

Wagner James Au is a poor excuse of an apologist for LL.  And Peter Grey's comment is a joke.

LL has never needed this permission to operate the Market Place because they are NOT resellers.   And they don't need it to provide the service.

If they are Resellers it completely changes their relationship with the Merchants and legally their rights and obligations to the Merchants and would more than likely increase them.

As a reseller they may not be able to enjoy the same protections under the DCMA as a Service Provider is.  They would be taking on additional liability.

At least that is my lay persons opinion.

At the very best this would be a cover your arse provision to protect themselves from any possible problem.

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Also, (I pointed this out in an earlier post) this TOS change allows LL to sell / licence the logos and marks of REAL WORLD COMPANIES with a presence in SL! I have been working hard to contact any I could find to let know, but if any of you know of some..lemme know :)

 

Then, the link below is for our EU residents to enforce their rights. I found it on http://modemworld.wordpress.com

https://www.secure.europarl.europa.eu/aboutparliament/en/petition.html

 

Don't forget to let your friends / merchants you have bought from about the new TOS ;)

*** Aztral Aeon

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The section of the TOS that let's LL run the Marketplace has been in there from when I joined over five years ago and at that time, I don't think The Lab ran the "marketplace" it was Xstreet (maybe that was LL's) and then OnRez I think. Five years is a long time here; my memory isn't clear on that.

The point is that BEFORE August 15th  the TOS said something like for the operations within world  which was legit. NOW that little line has been removed as well as adding all the text which gives them complete control if not copyright over all work.

A PR spin is a PR spin in any world. We see it all the time. As many have said -- and most likely in this VERY long (not complaining) and popular thread, a PR statement is not a legal contract. The TOS is at the top of the food chain in that respect.


If you want to compare the last TOS to the current TOS, here is a nice color coded Google Doc which makes reading for the first time easier. 

So to your question, the content on the marketplace that belongs to folks that don't log into the viewer was already covered in a previous TOS (this is my understanding anyway). One could make the argument that folks logging into the website to transfer money are covered under the same August 15th TOS even though there was no click through. I am thinking there is likely something in the TOS for the website that covers that -- there usually is.


But keep on watching!  It is bound to get more interesting soon! Lots of unhappy merchants and artists. More every day.

 

 

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Chic Aeon wrote:

A must read for anyone who has been following this thread:


That was a good read and provided some good assessments of LL's Bonehead Hi-Jacking of our content rights.

I still think that with LL forcing a TOS agreement change upon content creators that few creators would accept if LL were to have handed them this TOS on Day 1 but now that LL's SL service holds our content hostage - they say... effective immediately, we have full rights to your content and if you don't agree to the TOS then you cant come into SL ever again.  To me.. that is clear case of "Agreement Under Duress" and a form of blackmail.

And if they are no longer announcing TOS changes to their customers (users... us) then that is yet another potential violate of law.

Not to mention LL stating they now can arbitrarily take full co-ownership of all content that enters the system... like either legally awarded copyright license to an SL user of lets say the Nike logo or co-ownership rights to all the illegally ingested content in SL that LL takes little effort to remove from SL.

I do think our best weapon against this draconian move by LL is to do exactly what we are all doing.... make them feel the pain for their decision and embarrass them into correcting their wrongs.  We need to keep spreading the news on about LL's hi-jacking of our content rights so the userbase as well as the larger industry / online community are aware of this move by LL.

This is a dangerous move by LL - they didn't do this for no reason.  They are up to something and this TOS change is prepping them for this future action.  This does not bode well for us.

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I've got another "Use Case" question that just came to me. Perhaps others can comment / prevaricate on this situation:

I have a number of products in SL that are not wholly contained within SL. To be precise, the parts of those products that are contained within the platform amount to interface devices and tools so that SL users can avail themselves of the products' features and services. Those features and services constitute web-based and/or external computer operations.

Based on my reading of the new ToS, even those parts of these products that exist completely outside the purview of SL, LL and any of their systems .. are still included in the stuff they claim to own. In effect they have laid claim to software, databases and proprietary data mechanisms that they do not have any access to whatsoever!

These products are clearly hosted on multiple platforms, and each one is useless without both the LL-hosted and externally hosted parts working together, so it can be argued that since LL claims rights to the part within SL then they also claim rights to the parts that live outside as well.

... and even though that's a logical argument that can be made to their benefit, it's also a lever that can be used to pry this entire question out of their hands and remove ALL rights to any user-generated content. It just has to be placed before the courts to resolve.

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The Second Life database tracks the creation date of all assets. The dates appear to be inaccurate for some very old (2006 and earlier) assets, probably due to some database damage that wasn't fully fixed by maintenance procedures (the result is that they appear to be even older than they are), but they should be fine for anything newer.

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I am part of many "worlds" here in SL and while I have been a merchant of sorts for five years, that role has never been my primary activity. I have had several art galleries and been featured in some larger ones. I make machinima etc.

This is VERY worrisome from the artist's point of view -- particularly artists who have real life works represented here. In theory the lab could reproduce your work without your concent, selling copies and giving you no credit -- making your RL work less valuable. True, they only have a 512 or 1024 texture of your RL product, but having your work mass produced without your consent (well you did click through)  is a worry.

Some artists have left the buildiing, going to other grids or setting up their own. Some are preparing to.

Strangely enough, this all happened just when my SL shop was really taking off, doing the best it has ever done in many years. I have joined the No More Uploads parade and have quit making mesh. If needed I will upload signs and posters for the sim I curate, but aside from rezzing prims and using textures already uploaded I am done building here. Happily I found another world where I can keep my skillset sharp.

I HOPE to return to building here. I had many plans on the drawing board when this all happened. But each day with no response from Linden Lab pushes me further into the other camp. So I am enjoying my time here in small bits and pieces, lovely gray skies and warm Fall breezes, my new Firestorm kitty by my side. If it all ends I will still have over 3200 blog posts with about 10,000 photos with which to remember the journey.

Yep feeling nostalgic in the face of doom. That seems to be my mood this morning.

 

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I have a whole host of things going on to get the word out. Several grid-wide ads, notecard givers, blah blah blah :)

But by FAR the easiest method I have found to make an impact is letting merchants I have purchased from know about this change.

a) I just made a little informative notecard about this change of TOS. (if you want a copy let me know)

b) Then I went through my inventory looking for folders of products I had purchased.

c) I right-clicked the product (or any notecards) and selected 'properties' to get the creator.

d) I sent them an IM and dropped the notecard into the chat.

I only did 5 IMs at a time. Usually 1 or 2 of those 5 would be online so I could then chat with them, and ask them to also let others know.

The point being this was easy! No research, no setting up ads, or scripting. Just drag-n-drop, chat. Boom! :)

 

 

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LL really needs to clarify this. If they don't I think we can only assume the worst.

Two clients of mine already decided to purchase sims elsewhere for their projects due the new TOS, though one really wants/needs the advantange of the large populus here. After contacting their attorney one said he's convinced the TOS means what it says - that LL owns all the content in SL now and can do what they please with it - and he's not willing to spend the time/money to develop sims here when the content won't belong to him.

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