Updated LL TOS Claims FULL RIGHTS to ALL CONTENT

[Czari Zenovka]

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Alicia Sautereau wrote:

I wonder if you can buy 1cm of public land around the LL office and place a fence on it with a sign stating the same ToS but in your name.

Would Rod and the board pass through your gate?

 

ps; the gate is locked and is 100 meters high so they are forced to accept or skydive in

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Under the new TOS, they own the gate. :matte-motes-sour:

[Czari Zenovka]

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Rex Cronon wrote:

 @Czari Zenovka: -sadly ll functions used for encryption don't always work, so you need to try a few times.

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Will do.   Thank you again.

[Czari Zenovka]

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RiftRaven wrote:

 

Now that my Once Upon a Time fix is now over (which was very satisfying by the way :smileyhappy: ). 

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ARGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!  I totally forgot last night was the two-hour season premiere.

/beats head repeatedly on desk

Thankfully ABC streams the shows the next day on their website but ARRRRGGGHHH!!!!

[Trinity Yazimoto]

I just got a comment on my Google + from Will Burns on my Google + 

For him, LL plans are clear.

Selling our contents to game devs for a lil fee on Desura.

he allowed me to paste here his comments : 

"Some food for thought: The TOS changes make perfect sense if you think about the bigger picture. what they are doing and where their priorities actually are -

This is the sort of behavior you would expect when they're circling the wagons to suck the life out of the old in order to prop up the new. The pieces are in place with Desura and their new games, in conjunction with the new TOS laying claim to everything on the servers from user-generated content.

All they need now is a compelling service offering to entice indie game makers to use Desura, and what better service than to tell cash starved indie devs "For a nominal fee, you can have access to a wealth of assets to expedite your game development. Need a car for your racing game? We got it. Countless clothing options for your main characters? Right here. Sign on to Desura and we'll help you out with all the assets you need!" -

The content wouldn't be useful for AAA titles, but to an indie game developer, it's a no-brainer. Now that LL has a TOS laying claim to all the assets in SL, to resell as they see fit, this would be an easy way to exploit that while bolstering Desura and their other endeavors."

And asked me to add this : 

"You may quote me, but include the following food for thought along with it:

I believe the following about the TOS:

1. They won't change it, because it is too lucrative.
2. Content Creators pulling a mass exodus only encourages them to act on that TOS to make ends meet
3. Which leaves maybe a Class-Action Lawsuit to rectify the situation.

Would be an interesting class action to say the least. Whether or not agreeing to a Catch 22 TOS agreement is enough to warrant damages. Only way we'll know is if such a situation happens.

Not that I believe wholly that LL is going to siphon off the assets to Desura like I outlined, but if I were in the same position... and given the situation and those priorities... with a TOS that claims everything on the SL servers for resale... that would be my obvious guess for how to tie it all together from a business standpoint.

I'd be wholly surprised if LL suddenly did a 180 with the TOS... but miracles happen all the time, so one can hope."

 

For one year allready, i never stoped to say that Rodvick plans are to undress SL for dressing his other projects. Taking out all money generated by SL and putting it in new games without reinvestissing this money within SL. 

Will insight makes it all clear now and really confirm what i was already thinking.

Beside have some comminments for 2 fairs in october that i will do in respect for the ppl who invited me, i had also the plan to renew my whole Art Gallery. 

For now I wont. I will delay this till we see some changes. There is no way i allow them to resell my art without my consent.

after ill be done with my commintments for this 2 new fairs with my fashion design, i will also stop uploading any clothing textures for now.

[Trinity Yazimoto]

I 've also found a mail for a refereeing office at the Bern Convention office what is part of the UN.

arbiter.mail@wipo.int 

I sent a mail with a link to the TOS, a link to Toy's blog for the transcripts of the meeting yesterday and a brief explanation of the situation.

 

Maybe other could do that too, not for flooding but for insisting on the situation.

ill give updates as soon as ill have an answer to my mail.

I think that if someone can do smth its this office... for me its a bit like the court for human rights... of course, not real power for forcing LL, but at least they can tempt a reffereeing, i think they have great lawyers too and in the end, a symbolic conviction of LL from them, would be something with a high symbolic meaning.

 ETA : http://www.wipo.int/portal/index.html.en & http://www.wipo.int/amc/en/index.html (for more info about this office)

[Trinity Yazimoto]

I have also sent an email to the office in charge of intellectual property at European community. 

i wouldnt be surprised if the new TOS are not in compliance with EU laws... and even if its a californian company, for being able to work in EU, SL need to respect EU laws.

So ive pointed the new TOS to them and asked for some help or advices.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

The Survey that was put out to SL Content Creators via the free version of Survey Monkey has reached its 100 respondent limit.  As such, I have compiled the results and observations from this quick survey for you all to analyze.

You can see all the results in my blog:

http://toytalks.weebly.com/1/post/2013/09/secondlife-content-creators-survey-on-linden-lab-tos-issue.html

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So, you posted that to a group of 32 and got more than a hundred respondants....

[Chic Aeon]

Good to know. I'll be interested to hear how that turns out.

 

MEANWHILE as I was coming to see what was up here today I saw a NEW post at the top of this forum.

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Merchants/MP-items-and-cancelled-account/td-p/2233953

 

It mentions that items who apparently have no account associated with them  are still buyable on the Marketplace. Don't know the details. Some slueth might want to ask more questions on that.

 

Morning work done although my email account was overflowing this morning and I feel like I am spinning. Off to "other places" to have some fun and build.

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

The following link takes you to a place where you can download the PDF transcripts from the September 29th 12 noon SLT Secondlife inworld Emergency Meeting held to talk about the Linden Lab Aug 15 TOS change and what next steps Creators / Artists should do in response.

Following is the link to the open public chat transcripts that were captured, compiled, and published

http://toytalks.weebly.com/1/post/2013/09/transcripts-from-sep-29-sl-inworld-meeting-on-ll-tos-issue.html

 

To play it safe I posted these transcripts on my own blog and not here on the SecondLife forums.

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So, who ran this discusion and where was is promoted? or was a super secret invite cool kids club only invite, like most of them.

[Sassy Romano]

It was advertised here, nothing select or elite.  Just a rapidly organised meeting.  Bear in mind that there was no LL representation so it was just an airing of opinion and nothing more at this point.

 

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Art-Music-and-Photography/Warning-Artists-in-SL-LL-s-New-TOS-Hi-Jacks-Your-IP/m-p/2232151#M6376

[Trinity Yazimoto]

Drake, there is no secret reunion. 

The info has been sent here yesterday and those of us who saw it went to the meeting. It was only a first reunion and i bet there will be others, so the ones who couldnt come yest, will be able to come at the next ones.

you still can join the group that has been created at the end of this reunion, i send you an invite right now.

[Toysoldier Thor]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

---

Toysoldier Thor wrote:

The following link takes you to a place where you can download the PDF transcripts from the September 29th 12 noon SLT Secondlife inworld Emergency Meeting held to talk about the Linden Lab Aug 15 TOS change and what next steps Creators / Artists should do in response.

Following is the link to the open public chat transcripts that were captured, compiled, and published

http://toytalks.weebly.com/1/post/2013/09/transcripts-from-sep-29-sl-inworld-meeting-on-ll-tos-issue.html

 

To play it safe I posted these transcripts on my own blog and not here on the SecondLife forums.

---

So, who ran this discusion and where was is promoted? or was a super secret invite cool kids club only invite, like most of them.

---

So as has been mentioned... this meeting held yesterday inworld was primarily initiated and run by the ARTISTIC community of the overall community of SL Content Creators.  I did not create nor call the meeting but as soon as I was told of the details of the event I posted it in this thread as well as the similar thread in the ART PHOTOGRAPHY SL forum thread.

Alhough it was short notice, the sim maxed at 40 attendees and there were others outside the sim's border also attending.  We posted the transcripts of the meeting so anyone that could not attend this short notice / max out event could at least read the transcripts.

As for the Survey that I created....

I didnt post the link to the survey to a single secret group of 32.  I posted the link in this thread, a special survey thread in the merchant forums and the thread in the Art/photography forum.  I also posted the link in my FB account among my circle of 490 SL friends ... of which many are either merchant/creators or Artists/creators.  They in turn shared and spread the news / link of the survey.  I also posted it in my Twitter.

Because it was a free survey at survey monkey, the max respondent reported back to me is only 100.  It will continue to collect responses but I cant see the larger population of responses unless I pay the premium to unlock it.

 

The 100 responses were reached within 24 hours.

And you can go to my blog posting to see all the results from the survey.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

The following link takes you to a place where you can download the PDF transcripts from the September 29th 12 noon SLT Secondlife inworld Emergency Meeting held to talk about the Linden Lab Aug 15 TOS change and what next steps Creators / Artists should do in response.

Following is the link to the open public chat transcripts that were captured, compiled, and published

http://toytalks.weebly.com/1/post/2013/09/transcripts-from-sep-29-sl-inworld-meeting-on-ll-tos-issue.html

 

To play it safe I posted these transcripts on my own blog and not here on the SecondLife forums.

---

So, who ran this discusion and where was is promoted? or was a super secret invite cool kids club only invite, like most of them.

---

If I knew about it, I can insure you it wasn't the "cool kids club." *Grins*

[Czari Zenovka]

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

---

Toysoldier Thor wrote:

The following link takes you to a place where you can download the PDF transcripts from the September 29th 12 noon SLT Secondlife inworld Emergency Meeting held to talk about the Linden Lab Aug 15 TOS change and what next steps Creators / Artists should do in response.

Following is the link to the open public chat transcripts that were captured, compiled, and published

http://toytalks.weebly.com/1/post/2013/09/transcripts-from-sep-29-sl-inworld-meeting-on-ll-tos-issue.html

 

To play it safe I posted these transcripts on my own blog and not here on the SecondLife forums.

---

So, who ran this discusion and where was is promoted? or was a super secret invite cool kids club only invite, like most of them.

---

So as has been mentioned... this meeting held yesterday inworld was primarily initiated and run by the ARTISTIC community of the overall community of SL Content Creators.  I did not create nor call the meeting but as soon as I was told of the details of the event I posted it in this thread as well as the similar thread in the ART PHOTOGRAPHY SL forum thread.

Alhough it was short notice, the sim maxed at 40 attendees and there were others outside the sim's border also attending.  We posted the transcripts of the meeting so anyone that could not attend this short notice / max out event could at least read the transcripts.

As for the Survey that I created....

I didnt post the link to the survey to a single secret group of 32.  I posted the link in this thread, a special survey thread in the merchant forums and the thread in the Art/photography forum.  I also posted the link in my FB account among my circle of 490 SL friends ... of which many are either merchant/creators or Artists/creators.  They in turn shared and spread the news / link of the survey.  I also posted it in my Twitter.

Because it was a free survey at survey monkey, the max respondent reported back to me is only 100.  It will continue to collect responses but I cant see the larger population of responses unless I pay the premium to unlock it.

 

The 100 responses were reached within 24 hours.

And you can go to my blog posting to see all the results from the survey.

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And I had it as a link in my forum signature until I saw you had tallied the results.

[Chic Aeon]

Hey looks like I beat the wonder kid with the link to a new post:

http://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.com/2013/09/2013-help-new-terms-of-service-for.html

 

I admit the link was sent to me, didn't mine for it

[Drake1 Nightfire]

Did everyone miss the very first paragraph of section 2.3?

2.3 You grant Linden Lab certain licenses to your User Content.

You retain any and all Intellectual Property Rights you already hold under applicable law in Content you upload, publish, and submit to or through the Servers, Websites, and other areas of the Service, subject to the rights, licenses, and other terms of this Agreement, including any underlying rights of other users or Linden Lab in Content that you may use or modify.

 

You retain the rights.. even with the "subject to the rights, licenses, and other terms of this Agreement" part, you still retain the IP. They can not enforce a ToS that breaks the law. Can you picture that in court..

LL "Yes, your honor, we understand the ToS is illegal."

Judge "So why should I uphold it?"

LL "They agreed to it."

Judge "I rule in favor of the plaintiff."

LL stomps their foot "But they agreed to it! *Whiney noises*"

[Perrie Juran]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Did everyone miss the very first paragraph of section 2.3?

2.3 You grant Linden Lab certain licenses to your User Content.

You retain any and all Intellectual Property Rights you already hold under applicable law in Content you upload, publish, and submit to or through the Servers, Websites, and other areas of the Service

, subject to the rights, licenses, and other terms of this Agreement, including any underlying rights of other users or Linden Lab in Content that you may use or modify.

 

You retain the rights.. even with the "subject to the rights, licenses, and other terms of this Agreement" part, you still retain the IP. They can not enforce a ToS that breaks the law. Can you picture that in court..

LL "Yes, your honor, we understand the ToS is illegal."

Judge "So why should I uphold it?"

LL "They agreed to it."

Judge "I rule in favor of the plaintiff."

LL stomps their foot "But they agreed to it! *Whiney noises*"

---

I think you may be misunderstanding granting of rights.

There are several things you can do with content you own.

A.  Grant 'no rights.'

B.  Grant 'exclusive rights.'

C.  Grant 'limited rights.'

D.  Grant 'unlimited rights.'

E.  Grant 'non-exclusive rights.'

In the case of "B" you surrender all rights to your content.  You exclude yourself from ever using your content again.

In the old TOS, you did "C" and "E"  However, with the new TOS you grant "D" and "E"

There is no contradiction.  Under both the old and new TOS, you never exclude yourself from using your content where and how an when you see fit.  What has changed is LL's rights.

 

corrected: typo

 

[RiftRaven]

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Chic Aeon wrote:

Hey looks like I beat the wonder kid with the link to a new post:

 

http://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.com/2013/09/2013-help-new-terms-of-service-for.html

 

I admit the link was sent to me, didn't mine for it

---

Wonder Kid. lol  A clever one you are Ms Aeon. :smileyvery-happy: Yeah I knew about that link, this morning. But I'm happly enjoying my pleasent retirement, from my Makeshift Reporter days. A week and a half has been a long and rewarding career. lol Anyways anyone that clicks my signature has the same ability to find the latest blog posts, as I do, within seconds even. Also the News has snowballed to a very healthy degree, all kinds of new blog posts have been poppin up. So anyone reading this click my signature and book mark it and refresh it for the latest news. Heres another one incase you hadn't seen it by Honour McMillan, with a good amount of comments.

http://honourmcmillan.wordpress.com/2013/09/30/speculating-on-tos-second-life/

 

P.S.

Hey! Other Wonder Kid! It really does say in your article:

"Aztral Aeon urged everyone to spread the world" :smileyvery-happy:

Sorry if I was too vague in letting you know, with yesterday's message.

[Dartagan Shepherd]

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Chic Aeon wrote:

Hey looks like I beat the wonder kid with the link to a new post:

 

http://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.com/2013/09/2013-help-new-terms-of-service-for.html

 

I admit the link was sent to me, didn't mine for it

---

A few bits there to chew on.

Basically it comes down to LL trying to get work for hire rights without having to pay for those rights. The only right they don't get their hands on really isn't much of an issue for them.

It is further complicated when you get into the various types of media that they're trying to pull that off on.

 

 

As business associates go, LL is a most inconsiderate lover.

 

[Chic Aeon]

This is the best article (a follow up to last night's tounge and cheek post which was entertaining but not completely serious) I have read on the TOS issue. This guy knows his stuff and his musings seem to have credibility -- at least to me.

Long --  so get a cup of coffee or a beer or whatever but worth the reading.  I can't say it is terribly encouraging, but certainly a possible truth. We really won't  know for awhile I suspect. It does put the puzzle pieces together, some I had already assembled, some outside my expertise area.

He has been reading all of OUR thoughts too which is a great thing to see.

 

http://cityofnidus.blogspot.com/2013/09/your-world-your-imagination.html

 

The more high profile people that write on this, the better.

 

 

[Madeliefste Oh]

I'm a bit late for this 'party'.

I haven't been active for about two months, but I came back and felt like making some new stuff, and finish some half finished projects that I was working on before my pause.

When I came back, I just signed this new TOS without reading. I would go to the forums later, to see what TOS changes we have this time.  First things first: upload my new products, make productpics, put them in my shop and upload them to marketplace and write listings.  I was cheerful, I was back in SL, working for my brand. I was full of creativity and ideas for new items.

Then came this email from one of my co-creators, he asked for my position towards this new TOS. I could no longer ignore, so I started reading what is going on. And since then I'm a creator in doubt...

All my rationality says: Boycot Linden Lab from now on. It's plain and simple, I don't want to grant them the rights they want to lay their hands on. The party is over, this is where it ends for me as a content creator.
But emotionally I cannot stand behind this decission. Despite what LL is trying to make out of it, I still love SL. I still love to create for SL and share the passion of creating with others.

And since then I'm fighting with myself. I try to avoid the ultimate choice...
I try to find compromises like: I will finish only the products I was already working on, and that are partly uploaded, and then start the boycot. Or: I might see it on for a few more months. Maybe then things become more clear about the idea behind this tos change.
Is it naieve to believe that answer LL gave to the concerns, that is is not their "intention of abandoning our deep-rooted dedication to facilitating residents’ ability to create and commercialize such content in Second Life. In fact, we strive to provide Second Life’s residents with evermore opportunities to do so."? Yes, that is naieve.
But "evermore opportunities to do so..." that makes my merchant heart beat a bit faster. More opportunities. More buyers public? More sales? What is their intent? Take the risk, stay on the boat, just for the adventure to see where it goes. It all started as an adventure... so why not just continue in this flow that has brought me where I am today?
No, no, no! That is the stupidest thing I can possibly do. I'm not going to grant them rights to redistribute my content outsite the world of SL. That is not the deal I made when I signed up for SL. And that where not the conditions the day I became a content creator.

I just must stop, no more uploads. But I'm so unsure if I can stick to it. It feels like I'm just too addicted, my shop, my customers, and this whole community around it. I feel part of it, as a creator, that is my role in this world. And when I cannot be a creator any longer I'm not sure it's worth for me to stick around.

What Linden Lab can never take from me is my talent. It leaves SL when I leave. And other selling points are offering me better deals when it comes to IP rights, so in fact there is no reason to contribute to SL any longer.

No reasonable reason indeed. But there is still love for this miracle of imagination, the world that we residents shaped...  it has always developed despite Linden Lab. It's the power of the creative and inovative masses that was accidently brought together in SL. What we have build here is special, I feel I still want to be part of it.

I feel so confused. I feel so sad. I feel like a dead content creator.

[Alicia Sautereau]

You don`t have to stop.

You can get the stand alone version to create a few more products or finish them ready for upload while waiting for the storm to pass or a definite answer that they are actually grabbing everything.

The storm has only started to knock on the door...

[Trinity Yazimoto]

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:

I'm a bit late for this 'party'.

 

I haven't been active for about two months, but I came back and felt like making some new stuff, and finish some half finished projects that I was working on before my pause.

 

When I came back, I just signed this new TOS without reading. I would go to the forums later, to see what TOS changes we have this time.  First things first: upload my new products, make productpics, put them in my shop and upload them to marketplace and write listings.  I was cheerful, I was back in SL, working for my brand. I was full of creativity and ideas for new items.

 

Then came this email from one of my co-creators, he asked for my position towards this new TOS. I could no longer ignore, so I started reading what is going on. And since then I'm a creator in doubt...

 

All my rationality says: Boycot Linden Lab from now on. It's plain and simple, I don't want to grant them the rights they want to lay their hands on. The party is over, this is where it ends for me as a content creator.

But emotionally I cannot stand behind this decission. Despite what LL is trying to make out of it, I still love SL. I still love to create for SL and share the passion of creating with others.

 

And since then I'm fighting with myself. I try to avoid the ultimate choice...

I try to find compromises like: I will finish only the products I was already working on, and that are partly uploaded, and then start the boycot. Or: I might see it on for a few more months. Maybe then things become more clear about the idea behind this tos change.

Is it naieve to believe that answer LL gave to the concerns, that is is not their "intention of abandoning our deep-rooted dedication to facilitating residents’ ability to create and commercialize such content in Second Life. In fact, we strive to provide Second Life’s residents with evermore opportunities to do so."? Yes, that is naieve.

But "evermore opportunities to do so..." that makes my merchant heart beat a bit faster. More opportunities. More buyers public? More sales? What is their intent? Take the risk, stay on the boat, just for the adventure to see where it goes. It all started as an adventure... so why not just continue in this flow that has brought me where I am today?

No, no, no! That is the stupidest thing I can possibly do. I'm not going to grant them rights to redistribute my content outsite the world of SL. That is not the deal I made when I signed up for SL. And that where not the conditions the day I became a content creator.

 

I just must stop, no more uploads. But I'm so unsure if I can stick to it. It feels like I'm just too addicted, my shop, my customers, and this whole community around it. I feel part of it, as a creator, that is my role in this world. And when I cannot be a creator any longer I'm not sure it's worth for me to stick around.

 

What Linden Lab can never take from me is my talent. It leaves SL when I leave. And other selling points are offering me better deals when it comes to IP rights, so in fact there is no reason to contribute to SL any longer.

 

No reasonable reason indeed. But there is still love for this miracle of imagination, the world that we residents shaped...  it has always developed despite Linden Lab. It's the power of the creative and inovative masses that was accidently brought together in SL. What we have build here is special, I feel I still want to be part of it.

 

I feel so confused. I feel so sad. I feel like a dead content creator.

---

There is an alternative : Join the fight !

whatever you will go on creating or not. This is your decision and noone can judge you about that. But you can also join the fight and stand up for your content creator's right.

[Darrius Gothly]

Madeliefste,

If it was just about Second Life and what it takes to keep it working then yes, myself (and many others) would be just as confused as you. But it's not.

This time it's about Linden Lab, and more importantly about the plans of the upper management, to use the hard work and long term investment of some people WITHOUT having to pay for it, without compensating the actual creator in any way, shape or form, and without any remorse or feelings of guilt.

No, they won't be taking 99.999% of the stuff in Second Life, and honestly the grid can survive just fine with the massive amount of usable stuff out there. But they WILL be using some very high value things that others rightfully own, rightfully should control .. and rightfully should profit from.

It's about them, their greed, their lack of respect and their lack of consideration. It's not about the wonderful virtual world WE have created Madeliefste ... it's about their plans to take from us and give nothing back .. whatsoever!

[Chic Aeon]

I can understand your frustration about not being able to create.  I stopped uploading when CG Textures made its announcement and many of us saw what we missed previously. Creation is a big part of my life.

You can make mesh and upload to other grids. It keeps your skillset viable (those quick key combos can be easily forgotten) and many things could be uploaded to SL later if the climate changes.

One thing I suggest that you do NOT do  is use the ADITI grid as there was also a new TOS there at about the same time. When I tried to check what it actually said I only found a 2010 version on the aditi website (almost impossible to find - possibly by plan).

Since you make MESH, be sure and check the post that I just put up over at the MESH forum. You might also want to read the post that I was commenting on as it is the best that I have read so far and that is from a very LARGE number of articles and posts .

Good luck. I hope you find a way to stay happy. I have and so it can be done! Cheers.