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Toysoldier Thor

Updated LL TOS Claims FULL RIGHTS to ALL CONTENT

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I'll chime in, no1 needs to ask me. lol

 

My position is similar to Toys, and Chics, although I have cheated and uploaded content into SL. I'm very much limiting my uploads to test products, and essential product updates.

Outside of SL, I've been working like MAD. My website that sells items for Poser, Daz, and Unity3D, has gotten 7 new products. The last Unity update gave us Blendshape morphs, which is quite exciting for a gaming platform. I have yet to update my new Unity products with Blendshapes tho. I've added a couple of products to InWorldz, and been playing around in CP, and others. I was even nominated in InWorldz's yearly best of. It's nice to be noticed. It's likely I'll have more than enough to play with on other platforms, as they seem to be constantly innovating.

It kind of makes me sad to see SL and LL self implode. Oh, my sales are actually significantly up lately in SL. This doesn't mean it will continue tho. These other worlds are still working out the bugs. Everyday, things are getting more and more compatible with everything else. LL has disconnected itself from the community and few at LL understand SL as a product, nor the issues of the platform. For me now, the TOS, and LL's lack of urgency to respond, are really the last straws. I will no longer give any favoritism to the platform.

As far as UCCSL, I, of course, was never involved, and actually wrote comments against such a group. I will have to admit, that in some ways, I was wrong about their usefullness. I have no idea what the fuss is now about the group, nor do I really care. Again tho, I will say that I see more the need for such a group, but I think it should really stick to legal issues with LL. Too many times, a group like this can turn into an ideology, which eventually does more harm than good. If they simply stuck to the main issues that every1 can agree upon, and those that are of a legal matter, I can see where this group would be very helpful.

Not really related, but definitely concerns IP. Youtube is now vigorously challenging the copyrights of content in videos. Basically, instead of adhering to the DMCA, Youtube has created their own system. In their world, every1 is automatically guilty of copyright violations, regardless of whether a claim has been made against you. You are forced to prove that you have the rights to use all of the content. I'm not just talking about the objects in the scene, or music, but whether you even have to right to use the video editing software for commercial purposes. I'm assuming that PROOF means proof of purchase or other such things. As an example, Youtube blocked monetization of the last video that I uploaded. It was a video of Sword animations that I made for the Genesis character. I used a Daz3D background, Michael 5 skin texture, and clothing bought from the Daz3D store. The last back and forth email I got from Youtube asked me if I used Daz3D's software to create the animations. I explained the process, which also involves motion capture software. My next email from Youtube was telling me my video could not be approved, and then gave me some generic statement on how to obtain written permission to use some1 else's content. I, of course, rifled off a responce about the vagueness of their response to me and to clearify which element of the video they are refering to. This was today. The video was posted just over a week ago. Whether it is monetized or not doesn't really matter to me, as It still serves the purpose it was created for and generates sales. What is disturbing, and makes Youtube a risk to invest time in, is that Youtube is doing this to push channels into being managed by networks. Kind of like TV networks. Then Youtube will monetize your videos without all the BS.

Oh, and just to help out those creators that are expanding outside SL, and help promote another great business that seems to really know and respond to customers. If you notice, Shopify is now advertising all over the net, especailly Youtube, and here on SL's site. I've been using them for almost 2 years now, to handle all my website stuff, and all my payment processing. SendOwl, is an app for Shopify that delivers all my download links to customers. Shopify is a joy to use, and gets better and better.

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All I want to say is: 

First, LL stopped listening to creators, then UCCSL did the same...

Many people did some great work in UCCSL , but they left for several reasons... now it's a very different group, than what it was in December and everything that was achieved with the creator guilds, the headquarter etc. got taken down. 

 

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Thank you for posting Trinity. I think you worked harder than any of us in this area :D. I may be rethinking a few things.

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Nice to read your post.

The browser based world,  if you haven't noticed has been "dead" for two months. No word from any of the devs (well one very short post on the forums). It is looking dire over there unless they are selling.


Congrats on your  nomination.

I was most interested in your YouTube info. I haven't uploaded any video since the anti Monsanto day which was  -- well who knows? long ago. I don't doubt your words at all since I fought big time against that automatic linking to song selling websites when your track was creative commons downloaded from  (LOL it's been so long I have forgotten the biggest CC download site, oh my). Anyway so much going on against the rights of folks, not just SL. That doesn't make it better. I had a friend trying to get into his old Blogger account and could not unless he could come up with a Yahoo email???? All quite bizarre.

So where exactly are we as digital citizens? It isn't good out there and seems to be getting worse.

I made a very nice product on the "small grid" today. It would most likely be popular in SL as it is a remake (much improved over the one from four years ago *wink*) of a popular product. It uses only ambient maps so no "illegal" textures come in to the mix. Still, it isn't happening for me. I can't get enthused uploading. And yes, I am still making almost as much as I did before when I was actively adding products.

For those wondering, I did very well in the possibly defunct grid (money and famewise). I am doing amazingly well after three weeks in "the smaller grid" where the folks are SO friendly it is kinda scary.  So for builders -- there ARE other options.  I am not naming names here as don't want anyone to have reason to delete this thread.

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I want to say "I told you so" so I will ... I told you so. 

The ToS I signed did not and does not affect my SL experience.  I shop and buy gifts for myself and friends; I recognize a fairly healthy economy within SL.  When compared to other grids/worlds SL is without peer. 

While I agree with the owner and founder of UCCSL wresting back control of her group from some of the more 'aggressive'  content creators, I nearly peed myself when i read she wants the group to act/function more like a 'union'.  I boycott unions just because I can.  I will not purchase any item from MP or in-world shops that has a faux union seal of approval.  That's my stand. 

See you all in in-worldz or Kitely, but not likely.

PS Hair fairs and shoe fairs, I see tons of new stuff being created or sold in-world. 

PPS It's been over 6 months since the new ToS - has LL stolen anything from you?  I didn't think so. 

 

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I measure "told you so" in region loss. Collectively and consistently these decisions one after another shrink SL. You're welcome to my old pom poms though. May they keep your reality rooted in a fluffy place.

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Storm Clarence wrote:

I want to say "I told you so" so I will ... I told you so. 

The ToS I signed did not and does not affect my SL experience.  I shop and buy gifts for myself and friends; I recognize a fairly healthy economy within SL.  When compared to other grids/worlds SL is without peer. 

While I agree with the owner and founder of UCCSL wresting back control of her group from some of the more 'aggressive'  content creators, I nearly peed myself when i read she wants the group to act/function more like a 'union'.  I boycott unions just because I can.  I will not purchase any item from MP or in-world shops that has a faux union seal of approval.  That's my stand. 

See you all in in-worldz or Kitely, but not likely.

PS Hair fairs and shoe fairs, I see tons of new stuff being created or sold in-world. 

PPS It's been over 6 months since the new ToS - has LL stolen anything from you?  I didn't think so. 

 

LOL At least your postings are entertaining - I am sure most giggled at your statement highlighted in RED (even if maybe you personally believe what you actually are preaching).

You actually TOLD US SO WHAT?  That LL hasn't stolen anything from us?  First of all, you think LL works this fast considering the IP HighJacking TOS was only changed 6 months ago??  Since when does LL ever move this fast even when there is no resistance like the level of creator lashback response they got from their highjacking TOS? 

Even if the creators agreed with open arms to LL highjacking our content - they still have a ton of work to do like the likely major transformation of what is predicted that the MP that will allow non SL buyers for non-SL destinations of our content.  They also don't have Desura ready to high-jack our content and likely won't for some time. 

Finally, there is the little matter that LL naively went into this business strategy thinking all SL creators and artists would be ok with the August TOS and them highjacking our content.... and now they realize that they must tread a lot more lightly and carefully or else face possible legal / legislative action against them from the creator base.  LL Sr. Management is not the sharpest tools in the shed but even they recognized that maybe it would not be wise to invest so much time and effort into a strategy that was met with some of the most openly public lashback opposition they have seen from their SL customers / creators / artists in the history of LL.

Sooo Stormy....  you might be wise is not saying "I TOLD YOU SO" for about a year since you dont realize that business strategies as complex as this do not happen in 6 months.  Sit back for another 12 months and then we will see if you tell us or we tell you "I TOLD YOU SO".

 

 

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

LOL At least your postings are entertaining -

You actually TOLD US SO WHAT?  That LL hasn't stolen anything from us?

 

 

Thank you, I try very hard to entertain the masses.

No, I didn't say I told you so as to whether LL will steal from you.  I told you that if you slap the corporate suits in the face it will hurt you more than it will hurt them.  Yes, I told you so.

PS I find your posts also to be very entertaining.  You are a good straight man.  In other words I couldn't have come this far without your participation.  Again, thank you.

 

 

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Pierre Ceriano wrote:

[...]

So today I'd like to know everyone's opinion :
  • What is your position on the current revision of the TOS ?
  • What changes would you make to the TOS ?
  • What other domains would you like to make proposals and what proposals ?
  • What is your position regarding the future of UCCSL ?

[...]

Pierre Ceriano

In response to your questions Pierre:

I believe the current ToS is fixed in stone and will not be changed for any reason except by direct order of an authoritztive court as the result of a legal proceeding and finding. I find the entire motive behind the ToS to be disgusting, selfish, wrong-headed and ultimately indicative of a company running as rapidly as they can toward the ultimate failure of their most successful product.

I would revert the ToS to its language prior to the change. But beyond that I would revert the BoD and management staff at Linden Lab to a group of people that understands how to run a profitable business for long-term survival .. as opposed to the current crop that understands how to absolutely eviscerate a profitable property for the sake of short-term gain and profit. The current BoD and management staff follow the same moral precepts and methods of the corporate raiders of the 80's that bought up companies with momentary troubles but long-term viability then gutted them, dismembered them and sold off the parts at butcher shop fire-sale prices to recoup their paltry investment.

The UCCSL is a Dunsel because Linden Lab will not take any action to alter the ToS in any fashion other than to further their grip on customer uploaded and owned content.The UCCSL Management has responded in exactly the proper fashion for any organization that has discovered it is impotent; they have run around in circles, waving their hands in the air and making all sorts of noise .. to no useful end.

My opinions on any further matters are mine and for the time being will be kept private. If you want to know more, know that I will use my blog to post any additional thoughts. But when? Nothing is planned at this time.

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1. i don't like the tos. how could i possibly like it when it says that ll can take what i make, change it how it wants, keep it for as long at it wants, exploit it in any way and without giving me even credit for making it in the first place? my agreement to the current tos was under duress. i was doing a project for somebody, i was payed and i had to login:(

2. the tos would need to change to address the above list of problems.

3. there have been a few problems with uccsl :

-in the beginning the letter to ll was written by only a few people. imo everybody should have had their say about it.

-for short time a small crusade was started against copybotter stores. imo it is a good cause but is not the reason people become members of this group in the first place.

-we have guilds. i am sorry to say but when i hear guilds i start to think wow.

-a private letter by the group leader was written to ll. it is very weird for the group owner to have secret communications with ll.

-we can no longer chat in group chat about the tos and have to use a different group? is not like group chat was/is working 100%, but what are we supposed to talk about?

-it seems that now people are thrown out of the group for strange reasons. what did Pierre Ceriano do to deserve that?

if things continue to deteriorate i think the group might break apart quite soon.

------------------------------

p.s.

i am doing something about this unjust tos. since i am a scripter i am interested in protecting my lsl code, even from ll(i wish i didn't have to). therefore i made a lsl code obfuscator(makes it almost impossible for humans to read/understand it) that is free to use. i have personally used this for my scripts. if you want to give your scripts at least some protection i would advice you to use it. more info about it can be found here: http://rcds.nfshost.com/projects/lslo/lslo.php

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[Edit : it is said "Reply to Rex Cronon - view message" but it is of course a message for everyone]

 

It is time to to make a halfway balance and give my own opinions too. Firstly, I would like to thank all those involved in the debate. I thought it was buried or shelved but fortunatly it is far from that. I am a fundamentally optimistic guy and I would like my speech is a message of hope for all those who see no future and give up.

 

The pessimistic way of thinking is to say "there is nothing to do...

 

  • "... because there is nothing to do..."
  • "... because we cannot be overheard."
  • "... because to form an association is not a good thing.”

and there are also the fighters at the last minute, who move back towards music for fear of reprisals.

My straightforward brain would answer “Indeed, when you do nothing, nothing happens”

 

Right, but what to do ?

 

In contrast to popular opinion, LL, like any large company is very interested in the future of the game. I do not think they could do anything that undermines the good functioning of Second Life. Indeed, we sometimes feel like extras in a film by David Zucker. There is a terrible lack of communication between LL and its residents ; worse still, there is an abundant communication leading to a complete misunderstanding. So yes, I deeply beleive that an association like the UCCSL is a good thing. One proof is the first mail has been answered. They were not under obligation to do it : the UCCSL is not a registered association (is it ?) and most of its members are not registered companies.

 

As creatives we would do better to clean up our own backyard : can we ask for something serious if we are not serious ourselves ? Actually the UCCSL gathers serious persons, but also ripers, alts and coppybotters. And mainly the UCCSL is headed by a completely incompetent person who hijacked the association for its own sake, and openly said that UCCSL belongs to her and that it is not a democracy.

 

So I think :

  • LL should urgently revise and clean the TOS. There are two essential points: being in tune with international laws on the protection of intellectual property. Protect the intellectual property of the creators of SL and reassure their assets can not be used without their permission.
  • Serious people who are part of the UCCSL should ask their leader to explain and account for her behavior. Moreover, the debate on the TOS must remain the backbone of the UCCSL.

 

I am confident because History is still working in the right direction.

Pierre Ceriano

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 what did Pierre Ceriano do to deserve that?


Well, I just asked a serious question :matte-motes-big-grin:

The answer I got is as owner she does what she wants and UCCSL is anyway not a democracy, period...

 

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Pierre, you need to delete this chat log.  Reposting it here, or anywhere on LL servers, without the expressed permission of the other person involved is a serious violation of the ToS.

...Dres

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I seems that my ability to chat in that group has been disabled and is very likely that i was thrown out this group and also out of ""uccsl chat forum"(in this one we were supposed to talk about off topics, or things that aren't positive. haha)

i asked in group chat why can't i start a chat sesion in "uccsl chat forum".

i was polite and civil, didn't use profanities, and yet i was given the boot:(

it seems that the group owner likes dictatorship more than likes democracy:(

u can't ask questions, u can't say your opinion, but u r supposed to blindly follow the group owner:)

this group is a farce:(

its no longer used to fight for our rights as content creators:(

a dictatorship can't represent the interests of content creators in sl!

the power seems to have gone to somebody's head:(

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lol Rex, you should have asked the owner in IM, then you would have had the delight to be told the group is not a democracy. :smileywink:. This is what has been told to several other persons like you, whose sole fault has been to ask a question. Maybe asking question is something against their rules, idk.

Anyway, the group is now closed enrolement, so you have to beg the owner if you want to join and the TOS is no longer one of their fights, since they are not anymore mentioned in the group profile. So maybe it doesnt even worth to be mentioned in a topic against the TOS. 

And imho, its not a farce but a trickery that used the hopes of all the members and even a lot of energy and time of some members, to serve the ego of one person. Like its a trickery to not have told members, that a lot of guild organizers or team leaders have resigned (since they cant send notice, they couldnt tell themselves), that anyway guilds do no longer exist since the hippogroup subscription hasnt been renewed and still keeping talking to ppl about guilds like nothing happened...But well, things like that happens all the time and everywhere. We have to learn from every lesson.

 

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wait i made a chair, loveseat, couch and oddomen in mesh, and i am making stuff for them, you mean to say they plan to sell my stuff without paying me? :matte-motes-sour:

serously :matte-motes-crying:

 

no i am not selling it yet, but i want to, they would have their own system (scripted and whatnot), but i want to know, is it going to be worth selling it, or will they actually be able to sell it without my say so and not pay me?

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Energy Metaluna wrote:

wait i made a chair, loveseat, couch and oddomen in mesh, and i am making stuff for them, you mean to say they plan to sell my stuff without paying me? :matte-motes-sour:

serously :matte-motes-crying:

 

no i am not selling it yet, but i want to, they would have their own system (scripted and whatnot), but i want to know, is it going to be worth selling it, or will they actually be able to sell it without my say so and not pay me?

They aren't going to sell your stuff on the MP.

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Energy Metaluna wrote:

wait i made a chair, loveseat, couch and oddomen in mesh, and i am making stuff for them, you mean to say they plan to sell my stuff without paying me? :matte-motes-sour:

serously :matte-motes-crying:

 

no i am not selling it yet, but i want to, they would have their own system (scripted and whatnot), but i want to know, is it going to be worth selling it, or will they actually be able to sell it without my say so and not pay me?

Any content you bring into SL is subject to the same licensing requirements as spelled out in the ToS, whether you set it for sale or not.  Which means that, if you've already uploaded it into SL, it's already too late... so you might as well sell it and at least get something out of it.

...Dres

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So far, there have been no public reports of LL selling products without paying the creator.  They are not likely to sell products on the SL market place in competition with the creator because that would cause an immdiate and intense reaction from the content creators.  

On the other  hand, one of the explanations they gave for the new TOS was that it was to enable them to sell products elsewhere (eg., Desura) as agent for the creators.  I don't know of any reports of that happening.  Some content creators may be checking other possible markets (such as Desura or Kitely) to see if their products are being sold there.  If any had been found, I think we would have heard.

 

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i figured it was not a big deal i just saw the post and was like, what the heck, and thought i would ask lol, ty guys, i am not really to worried about it, but was kinda curious :heart:

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Energy Metaluna wrote:

i figured it was not a big deal i just saw the post and was like, what the heck, and thought i would ask lol, ty guys, i am not really to worried about it, but was kinda curious :heart:

You are very welcome, but, contrary to your belief, it most certainly is a big deal.  A big deal, in which you should definitely be worried if you create any sort of content for SL.

I'm in no way trying to scare you, but simply ask that you gain a bit of knowledge about your rights and which of those rights that you're willing to give up to simply be part of a virtual world which is run by a company that demands almost unlimited rights to any content which you've created.

It's your choice, but please let that choice be informed.

...Dres

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A lot of content creators do consider the TOS a big deal.  Here is a summary article with links to many other articles:

http://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.com/2013/09/2013-help-new-terms-of-service-for.html

I have moved my serious video production to KItely because I may not be able to sell exclusive rights to videos if they are produced in SL.  

TKR

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