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Rya Nitely

CG Textures Announcement - FYI

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Rya Nitely wrote:

 

cg.PNG

 

Bit annoying since I recently paid for 12 months premium
:(

Interesting problem here.

When you upload something into SL you warrant to LL that you have a right to use it.

No where does LL require that anything you upload have an 'open or transferable license.'  Only that you have the legal right to use it.

If they allow you to upload their textures purchased outside of SL they are not granting any rights to LL.  They are only granting you the right.

Nor can you grant any rights on their behalf.

So LL would have NO RIGHTS to use their textures the way they are reading into the TOS.

If you built something using their textures, before LL could use that item, they'd have to remove the textures.

An Attorney, playing it safe might suggest they forbid use in SL.  But really, I'd be skeptical if they spoke to an attorney.

Thinking this through, LL actually risks running afoul of someone's rights if they use an item with out checking all the details.  :)

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As the CG announcement refers to Linden Labs and their Second Life we have nothing to worry about.

We can still use CG textures in Second Life which is owned by Linden Lab.  :smileyhappy:

 

:matte-motes-nerdy:

 

[Edited 12 September 2013]
CG textures have now corrected Linden Labs to Linden Lab in their announcement.

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Perrie Juran wrote:

No where does LL require that anything you upload have an 'open or transferable license.'  Only that you have the legal right to use it.

If they allow you to upload their textures purchased outside of SL they are not granting any rights to LL.  They are only granting you the right.

Nor can you grant any rights on their behalf.

So LL would have NO RIGHTS to use their textures the way they are reading into the TOS.

From the SL ToS:

In connection with Content you upload, publish, or submit to any part of the Service, you affirm, represent, and warrant that you own or have all necessary Intellectual Property Rights, licenses, consents, and permissions to use and authorize Linden Lab and users of Second Life to use the Content in the manner contemplated by the Service and these Terms of Service.

 

So if I read this correctly, it means CG Textures doesn't give you the rights Linden Lab now requires you to have to upload the content. So the addition in the CG Textures ToS just explains why you can't use their textures any longer, it's not a "new rule".

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It seems CG Textures is right.

They highlight the problematic sentence here: http://www.cgtextures.com/content.php?action=secondlife_licensechange

Almost all hosting services have a similar scary-looking clause which essentially amounts to "we need to be allowed to send copies over the wire to the users, possibly in another file format than what you uploaded".

The problem is that the wording here does not include a "...for the purpose of delivering the Second Life service" which such clauses need to limit the use. LL does, indeed, claim the right to do it for "any purpose whatsoever".

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Vick Forcella wrote:

That part of the SL TOS was there long before the latest revision. Doesn't anybody read the TOS?

I do. I did, I tried. I made an effort. But it's very very long and not in simple English. I need simple English. You see CG Textures obviously saw the need for simple English, because I understood it when they said,,, but the SL TOS is too..... well, long and complicated. And I'm sure I'm not alone here....or am I :matte-motes-bashful-cute-2:

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Rya Nitely wrote:


And I'm sure I'm not alone here....or am I :matte-motes-bashful-cute-2:


You are absolutely not alone. I did read it, so I can give you the short version: "The clients have no rights whatsoever, Linden Lab has the right to do anything". You can quote me on that.

More towards the OP. There are two rules applicable here. One is the TOS rule where CG fell over, that was in the TOS before. The second one is just as tricky: "we" need to own *all* rights before we upload or create. That was also in the old TOS. That basically means we never *had*  the right to upload any textures from CG.

HTH :)

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

No where does LL require that anything you upload have an 'open or transferable license.'  Only that you have the legal right to use it.

If they allow you to upload their textures purchased outside of SL they are not granting any rights to LL.  They are only granting you the right.

Nor can you grant any rights on their behalf.

So LL would have NO RIGHTS to use their textures the way they are reading into the TOS.

From the SL ToS:

In connection with Content you upload, publish, or submit to any part of the Service, you affirm, represent, and warrant that you own or have all necessary Intellectual Property Rights, licenses, consents, and permissions to use and authorize Linden Lab and users of Second Life to use the Content in the manner contemplated by the Service and these Terms of Service.

 

So if I read this correctly, it means CG Textures doesn't give you the rights Linden Lab now requires you to have to upload the content. So the addition in the CG Textures ToS just explains why you can't use their textures any longer, it's not a "new rule".

I stand corrected.

Yes, that section of the TOS does create a giant FUBAR.

But really, the person who is in trouble here is the SL user.

Your uploading a  texture you obtained on the web would still not grant LL license.

But it would put you in violation of the TOS.

HUGE FUBAR.

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Vick is not entirely correct. I dug out the May version of the ToS from one of the earlier rounds of comparison, and the parallel clause there states:

"You agree that by uploading, publishing, or submitting any Content to or through the Servers, Websites, or other areas of the Service, you hereby automatically grant Linden Lab a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, sublicenseable, and transferable license to use, reproduce, distribute, prepare derivative works of, display, and perform the Content solely for the purposes of providing and promoting the Service."

Notice the "solely for the purposes of providing and promoting the Service". That is the critical part.

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I am puzzled as to where your interpretation of the old ToS comes from. The old Tos (7.2 para 1) did not say the "right to do anything". The license claimed in this section was restricted by the qualification "solely for the purposes of providing and promoting the service"*. In contrast, the new Tos (2.3 para 5) explicitly says "any purpose whatsoever."* Can you point us to the place in the old ToS where you infer the "right to do anything"?

*quoted phrases from content copyright Linden Lab 2010-2013 at links provided.

As far as I recall, the CG previously explicitly allowed upload their stuff, indicating that the clause with that restriction was acceptable to them. Removal of that restriction is clearly a substantive change with wide ranging implications. So the reaction of CG is surely perfectly rational and not an indication of previous misunderstanding.

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Perrie Juran wrote:

But really, the person who is in trouble here is the SL user.

Your uploading a  texture you obtained on the web would still not grant LL license.

But it would put you in violation of the TOS.

That's exactly what I get out of it. So we can either upload royalty/license/IP rights free textures, textures with the right to resell as we wish or our own textures. That sounds like "a lot of textures", but is probably going to affect a lot of people.

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If LL doubles down on this wording, it is actually a pretty big problem.

It has little to do with CG Textures; they just spotted the change. I must admit it had gone under my radar as "just the usual legalese for "we can actually send the content we host"."

But as it stands now, LL can take anything you do and, say, sell it to other companies. Wouldn't it be interesting to see your landscaping models show up in other games, as "stock art"?
I can hardly imagine that is what LL actually means (and I doubt it would hold up in court if challenged, especially given the non-announcement of such a substantial license change), but it is what they say currently.

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Tali Rosca wrote:

Vick is not entirely correct.

<snip>

Notice the "
solely for the purposes of providing and promoting the Service". That is the critical part.

Ah darn. However .. it does match my short version :)

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And then there's this little bit at the end of 2.3 as well:

"Linden Lab has no obligation to monitor or enforce your intellectual property rights to your User Content, but you grant us the right to protect and enforce our rights to your User Content, including by bringing and controlling actions in your name and on your behalf..."

Does this mean LL is no longer covered under the Safe Harbor provisions of DMCA? Isn't bringing actions in my name something like buying life and fire  insurance on your neighbor (or insurance companies selling hedging-type securities on stocks they don't own)?

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

But really, the person who is in trouble here is the SL user.

Your uploading a  texture you obtained on the web would still not grant LL license.

But it would put you in violation of the TOS.

That's exactly what I get out of it. So we can either upload royalty/license/IP rights free textures, textures with the right to resell as we wish or our own textures. That sounds like "a lot of textures", but is probably going to affect a lot of people.

Here's the problem for LL as I see it now.

You ask me if you can use my texture in SL.

I say "yes."

By my saying yes does that equal my agreeing to LL's TOS?

This question may have already been answered by the Courts or somewhere in the Laws but I have no idea if or where.

Regardless, LL does state:

"In connection with Content you upload, publish, or submit to any part of the Service, you affirm, represent, and warrant that you own or have all necessary Intellectual Property Rights, licenses, consents, and permissions to use and authorize Linden Lab and users of Second Life to use the Content in the manner contemplated by the Service and these Terms of Service."

Without permission to grant LL the right to use the content any way they deem fit, you'd be in violation of the TOS and not only that but legally liable for any claims the original Texture creator might make.

I'm not trying to justify LL here but I understand their problem too.  How are they supposed to know the origin of a texture, etc.  So they are putting the responsibilty back on the User.

What a clusterf*ck!

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Drongle McMahon wrote:

As far as I recall, the CG previously explicitly allowed upload their stuff, indicating that the clause with that restriction was acceptable to them. Removal of that restriction is clearly a substantive change with wide ranging implications. So the reaction of CG is surely perfectly rational and not an indication of previous misunderstanding.

The reaction of CG is correct. However we never had the right to upload their work since CG retained rights after uploading and the TOS doesn't allow that. Even when CG allowed it.

So now CG doesn't allow what wasn't allowed anyway.

The part where LL can take your stuff was an old part of the TOS.

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I would agree that the breadth is there as a means to cover unforseen problems, rather than indicating any current intent. As such there is not too much for an individual creator to worry about, but for an organisation that is representing many, all of whom may have different views on the matter, I can understand that they also want to err on the side of caution. This is how the lawyers end up spoiling things for everyone. Professional paranoia and back-watching are the real problems here.

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Perrie Juran wrote:

I'm not trying to justify LL here but I understand their problem too.  How are they supposed to know the origin of a texture, etc.  So they are putting the responsibilty back on the User.

What a clusterf*ck!

Of course LL should minimise their risk, the platform as we know it can't work without such a set of ToS. The problem of LL claiming pretty much a full license on all uploads is another matter though. I'm pretty sure they were well covered by their previous "solely for the purposes of providing and promoting the service". There should not be a single reason why LL needs the rights to sell any uploads (besides selling on the marketplace which would be "providing the service") as far as I can see.

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:


There should not be a single reason why LL needs the rights to sell any uploads (besides selling on the marketplace which would be "providing the service") as far as I can see.


They can't. The only right we have is IP rights, but that is US law. LL can take pictures of anything, everywhere and use that for promotion. When an account is closed LL will obtain all rights, according to their TOS. And LL can close an account for any reason, or no reason at all.

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Well I was not too happy to find this thread on my "day off" :D, but good to know and something to think about.


Meanwhile I have been downloading attib creative commons textures for a new stash of start with stock.

I just wanted to say that if your comment about just paying for 12 months premium was at CG textures then you can probably get your money back either from CG Textures directly or from your credit card / Paypal etc. The company changed their rules and made the membership useless to you. It was NOT what you agreed with when you paid. In the past I have received the remaining money from a memeberships in cases like this. So, just saying you might try.  Most people don't know they can do this and the companies SO don't want to get a chargeback from the credit card folks as that comes with a very hefty "service fee". 


Most of us sit around and think "oh LL won't actually DO anything with the rights that they now have" and I really can't see that selling "citizen's " works to another game platform etc. would do anything but generate a mass exodus, but we really don't know what all those changes in the TOS were about. Possibly never will.

So I will be rethinking a few things. At least our OLD stuff is "legal".

/me walks away virtually shaking head in dismay.

 

 

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Just to make it clear: CG Textures did not change any rules. Their license is still the same. They merely pointed out that SL changed the ToS to something which is now incompatible, now demanding that you hand over rights (to sublicense) which you do not have (and never had) according to CG Texture's license.

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Tali Rosca wrote:

If LL doubles down on this wording, it is actually a pretty big problem.

It has little to do with CG Textures; they just spotted the change. I must admit it had gone under my radar as "just the usual legalese for "we can actually send the content we host"."

But as it stands now, LL can take anything you do and, say, sell it to other companies. Wouldn't it be interesting to see your landscaping models show up in other games, as "stock art"?

I can hardly imagine that is what LL actually means (and I doubt it would hold up in court if challenged, especially given the non-announcement of such a substantial license change), but it is what they
say
currently.

Well it occurred to me what LL meant when they said the new TOS was "more restrictive."

It is more restrictive on content creators and those who upload images, etc to SL.

As to the "non-announcement," nothing says that they need to highlight or call attention to material changes.

However, if you had agreed to the prior TOS, any material changes would not go into effect for 30 days because the prior TOS had read,

"Material Changes will become effective thirty (30) days after such notification."

It is hard to assume what a Court may rule, but in this lay person's mind the subject of this discussion would be a "material change."

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"It is more restrictive on content creators and those who upload images, etc to SL."

My interpretation also. The extension to "any use whatsoever", and the inclusion of the right to sell on, are inconsistent with the terms of any texture providers I have seen. So the uploader is very severely restricted in whay he can upload. Unless textures have been explicitly placed in the public domain, or thier creators died more than seventy years ago, then I guess we can now only upload those for which we are the copyright holder - that is to say, only our own creations.

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