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Rya Nitely

CG Textures Announcement - FYI

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I actually was thinking that creative commons attrib would be fine but perhaps not as I doubt LL would give attribution if it sold items through Amazon or another online retailer. So this is very very messy. And you KNOW that people are not going to stop uploading things they should not. Its all about LL covering themselves. I know big RL companies who have attempted to partner with Amazon and it was NOT a pretty story.

I have written two long articles on my blog. One posts tomorrow stating that I have decided to quit building for awhile over this. Just not right on so many levels. Will see if it sorts itself out. And of course while The Labs put the weight of being honest on the person uploading they do absolutely nothing about the TONS AND TONS of completely illegal and copyright infringement works on the Marketplace and inworld. If the RL copyright holder doesn't complain all is well.

And then there is that whole "complete right to your work and resale rights forever and ever" bit.

Sorry. Just very depressed on many levels.

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Vick Forcella wrote:


Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:


There should not be a single reason why LL needs the rights to sell any uploads (besides selling on the marketplace which would be "providing the service") as far as I can see.


They can't. The only right we have is IP rights, but that is US law. LL can take pictures of anything, everywhere and use that for promotion. When an account is closed LL will obtain all rights, according to their TOS. And LL can close an account for any reason, or no reason at all.

Oh I think you misunderstood me there. In a previous thread on this subject, I said that LL might need the right to sell "our" items on the marketplace. We get "paid" in L$, which isn't actual currency. People can buy with real money on the marketplace though, the money goes to a LL bank account. So LL is selling and handing the creator "tokens". The "providing a service" would cover this I think.

However, I think the new ToS allows LL to sell our items directly on the marketplace or anywhere else, the ToS clearly say we keep our rights, but license LL to use them as they please. I don't think they ever will, not even when accounts are closed. It's just a bit creepy that they can, at least with content uploaded after this change in ToS.

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The new TOS looks like a total shambles to me. Linden Lab can assert whatever they want and call it a contract, but it is perhaps worth remembering illegal contracts are unenforcible. What worries me about this is CG textures seem to be acting as if it is enforcible.

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Chic Aeon wrote:

 

I have written two long articles on my blog. One posts tomorrow stating that I have decided to quit building for awhile over this. Just not right on so many levels. Will see if it sorts itself out. And of course while The Labs put the weight of being honest on the person uploading they do absolutely nothing about the TONS AND TONS of completely illegal and copyright infringement works on the Marketplace and inworld. If the RL copyright holder doesn't complain all is well.

And then there is that whole "complete right to your work and resale rights forever and ever" bit.

Sorry. Just very depressed on many levels.

I've decided to stop building for a while too for the same reasons you state above. Competing with 'stolen' mesh items was one huge hurdle to cope with, and now I would have to grab my camera and go searching the world for images - it's just not worth it.

As for your advice on getting a refund from CG Textures - I know they would give me a refund. They're fantastic people and kudos to them. However, I've gained so much over the years of free membership it would be almost rude to want my money back. I've been able to slap one of their free textures onto a prim, make it sail and make money out of it. I'm happy to give something back. They're not to blame for this.

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Ok, I am going to say this upfront, I am not trying to sound like an ass here, so please don't think I am. Sometimes I am an ass, and sometimes I am blunt, in this case it's more the latter.

I would like someone, or a few someones, many even, to dumb this down for me as they see it. I have thoroughly read over the TOS numerous times, all of the TOS. I have also thoroughly read over this thread, and other sites where this has been or is being discussed. I'm still a bit muddled on the matter.

As I am reading, both the actual TOS and people's interpretations of it, I am seeing people who are getting angry they can no longer use textures other people have made and upload them into SL. They can no longer do this, because they don't own the rights to do this. That's my simplistic version of what I have read. I'm not saying it's how things actually are, or whether or not I am spot on or a galaxy away on the matter. I don't see people who make their own textures from scratch getting angry though.

In my case I have never built anything in SL using a texture I did not 100% create myself. So, that basic interpretation of what I have read, wouldn't affect me in any way. At least no different than any of the previous versions of the TOS did. I have always read that area of the TOS to say that Linden Lab is free to use whatever assets I upload as they see fit, and I need to be that assets creator/owner in order to upload it in the first place. I probably interpreted it wrong from day one. That's just how I always took it. I've never uploaded assets I wasn't willing to share with the world for this reason.

So, I suppose what I am actually asking here, is does this sort of change affect primarily people who use textures or other assets they got from other sources, licensed or not, or ....? Yeah I can't finish that question, because some of the things I've read seem very muddled.

I can understand why people are frustrated, to an extent. I can understand people who have been given license to use a specific texture, for example, as they see fit, who are now not allowed to because they aren't the actual copyright holder. At least I am trying to understand it anyway. I'm having a little bit of a hard time because I always thought these people never really had "ownership"(as someone already mentioned) of those textures/assets. I get the frustration about not being able to use those textures they have been given license to use-that part is clear. The part of the anger I don't get is where people are getting mad that now Linden Lab also has free use of those same textures they didn't create. If you didn't originally create it yourself, and have only been given license to use it but not ownership rights, what is there to be angry about that Linden Lab is covering their ass to make sure they too have that same license you do to use that texture? That's the part that may make me sound like an ass, I assure you, I'm not. I'm trying to simplify the thought process in my head though, not be a jerk or seem uncaring towards creators. I certainly don't want to seem like I am making light of an issue causing others concern, either. I have the utmost respect for most creators.

I had a store for 6 years in SL, so I do, very much, understand frustration in general and the overall "You're a mean one, Mr Linden" feeling we have towards the lab at times, especially when they make changes we don't know about or changes that affect our bottom line(be it product bottom line, or pocketbook bottom line). I think it is my own interpretation of all the TOS versions we've ever gotten, that may be getting in my way of understanding this issue at it's base root. This is why I need it dumbed down, or at leat your point(s) of view explained. It may help others who are reading and have no idea in heck what people are talking about or why they're up in arms about this. Not everyone reading is a creator. Not everyone reading is someone who uses textures provided by another source, either. So not everyone will understand. I'm one of those people, though I do know how to create. I don't always understand the point of view another creator has. I'd like to understand.

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OK, I've done a quick scan back looking for the anger and frustration of which you speak, but I don't see it. Disappointment and concern yes, and that's to be expected, but no anger or frustration.

I think people are rather calm about it, and some of us are just reassessing our options under the changed conditions.

Many people, like myself don't have the skills to create textures from scratch. You are fortunate to be able to do that.

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If you take the time to copyright anything you create and import to SL, nothing in the TOS can override your copyright.  SL will be subject to DMCA/copy right violations just like anyone else would.   No ones ToS can negate your copy right.  

Copyright protects the expression of ideas, specifically literary, musical, visual, architectural, cinematographic and dramatic works. Copyright gives the holder the exclusive right to use, reproduce or copy, distribute, promote, perform, sell, make derivative works of and translate the work for the duration of the author's life plus 50 to 70 years, depending on the type of work.

Copyright infringement or violation occurs when a person in any way uses another person's creative work without the permission of the copyright holder. Once a violation has been documented, the copyright holder can press charges. The copyright holder can press charges regardless of whether the infringement involved financial gain for the violator or was intentional.

Generally, copyright holders sue for damages, which can be lost licensing fees or lost profits. When the copyright violator is found guilty, the court orders him to pay the copyright holder's legal fees in addition to damages. According to Chapter Five, Article 504 of the U.S. Copyright Act, each infringement carries a minimum $750 and maximum $30,000 penalty per violation, while willful infringement carries a maximum penalty of $150,000.

Willful violation can also carry crimianal penalties.  These would be If a violator is found guilty,  a fine of up to $500,000 or imprisonment of up to five years for a first offense. For subsequent offenses, there is a fine of up to $1 million or imprisonment of up to 10 years.

I would say that since SL has stated their intent to violate copy right in advance and willfully, some one could end up in a Federal Correctional Facility.


And before anyone asks, yes I am an attorney and a US Federal Agent.

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Elle Benusconi wrote:

If you take the time to copyright anything you create and import to SL, nothing in the TOS can override your copyright.  .

There are some vague areas.

To make The Marketplace work, The creator has to give the object to LL and LL gives the object to the client of the merchant.

The outside of an object will be visible to *anyone*, others can see how an object is created and see a vision of the texture even when it (texture/ object) is non-copy.

Others can take pictures or make a Machinima of objects (and avatars).

Objects, the code that describes it, is transferred over the network inside the Amazon cloud. It is impossible to disallow that.

To capture those instances LL must have full permissions of all creations.

 

Also LL will (have to) act when they receive a DMCA report. They will do that without consulting the creator first.

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Vick Forcella wrote:

 

To capture those instances LL must have full permissions of all creations.

Or, alternatively, you keep your object in Blender or on a local copy of OpenSim and don't shate it with anyone.

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ImaTest, if you've always believed that LL could take your textures and, say, sell them on Shutterstock as they please, then no, nothing has changed for you.

That is, however, a pretty big change. Previously, the ToS allowed them to use your textures to run SL, not to make a business elsewhere. This is what people are concerned about.

This change also effectively prevents almost all use of 3rd party textures, whether from CG Textures or any other library, paid or free, since those libraries almost never allow resale; something LL now demands that you give them the right to. (Credit to you for doing your textures 100% by yourself, but the use of a - often commercial - texture library is common in 3D modeling).

This is not the same as LL "also has free use of those same textures they didn't create". They would have to obey the license of the library, just like everybody else.

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"If you take the time to copyright anything you create and import to SL, nothing in the TOS can override your copyright."

While technically true, it is beside the point.

For one, you do not need to "take the time to copyright" anything. You automatically have copyright of your creations. (Berne Convention, since 1886 in most of the world; 1989 in the US, though in the US, registering it allows for higher damages on infringement).

And you already grant some rights to LL, since you allow them to distribute your items to other users. You can't suddenly say "I have copyright in this texture; LL has to pay me royalties for showing it to other SL users". -It is exactly this the clause we're talking about here is written to provide and protect against, and it is common amongst all hosting providers.

Elle is right in the sense that this does not mean that the ToS "overrides your copyright". You still hold that. You have just granted LL the unlimited and irrevocable right to use your work, but you can still decide how others are allowed to use your work. (Though, of course, since LL also claims the right to sub-license, that could get out of your hands, too).

Now, whether the new ToS is so over-broad as to be unenforceable is an open question, and I lean towards believing so. It’s a general principle that the law provides a minimum baseline, and you can’t go below that in a contract, and I think that’s what Elle alludes to when saying that the ToS “can’t override”. It is simply not reasonable to hand all commercial rights away simply by uploading to a hosting provider.

 

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Absolutely understand your position and CG Textures position and I too am indeed going on hiatus from building. 

I can't imagine that the labs would actually sell items made by citizens for the profit of the labs, but that possibility is certainly stated in the new TOS which we all have agreed to assuming we have logged in this month :D.

And they have tested inworld delivery through Amazon at least so it seems that selling SL products outside SL is a consideration if not a plan.

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Rya Nitely wrote:

OK, I've done a quick scan back looking for the anger and frustration of which you speak, but I don't see it. Disappointment and concern yes, and that's to be expected, but no anger or frustration.

I think people are rather calm about it, and some of us are just reassessing our options under the changed conditions.

Many people, like myself don't have the skills to create textures from scratch. You are fortunate to be able to do that.

I didn't necessarily mean anger was seen here in this thread. This isn't the only place it's been discussed. That's why I pointed out that I've seen it discussed elsewhere too.

There are some people pretty angry about it out there.

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I am in the camp with Rya; I am both disappointed and concerned -- not angry. More in sighing mode.

You can't reasonably be angry with someone if YOU were the one that gave away your rights. Really, that makes no sense.

 

As I see it there are two things going on here. You can no longer use ANY textures but your own made from within your graphics program with perhaps a starting spot from YOUR camera. While I originally thought Creative Commons items would work, that is not true as you don't own the copyright on them and if the labs decided to SELL YOUR WORK or sub-license it they would undoubtedly not keep the notes within the item about attribution. 

The other is the broadening by leaps and bounds of the Linden Lab rights regarding YOUR work (obviously the your relates to each citizen who uploads new work after August 15th). Before The Lab had rights within Second Life like transferring work via the Marketplace, rezzing (your) objects in world so others could see etc. NOW they have the ability to sell the products you made using only your original graphics and your original mesh (I am going to assume here that they are not interested in OLD technology) to anyone they want without giving you any of the profits.

So let's say I spent a month or more making a new sci fi avatar, head to toe, all mesh. I even made a matching AO with all new animations to fit the avatar. All the textures were from scratch. I made the avatar in Blender (so no shadowy illegal software even). I upload my avatar and it sells really well in world and on the Marketplace. Linden Lab sees this (we are still in a scenario here -- this has not happened) and decides to market the avatar through a high profile website. They sell the product that took a month of hard work to make. They get all the profits. They also potentially cut into my profits within SL.

THAT is the potential problem.

 

RE Copyrights. The terms of service still says we hold the copyright so that isn't the issue really; we have GIVEN the Lab the right to sell and reap the profits when we agreed to the new terms of service.

 

 

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I still consider it simply a screw-up in wording. I really don't believe LL has any intention of invoking "the scenario", even if they claim the right to do so. (And I also think it could be challenged if they attempted, but it's a theory I really don't care for testing). My guess is that this is a cut'n'paste spillover from their work on making one ToS applicable to several services.

But the incompatibility with any other license is a practical problem.

I can't help but notice, though, that it mirrors LL's rules for object export: That you must have created the object; not merely have the rights to it. It would be pretty harsh to enforce that for uploads, too.

 

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Tali Rosca wrote:

 

This change also effectively prevents almost all use of 3rd party textures, whether from CG Textures or any other library, paid or free, since those libraries almost never allow resale
; something LL now demands that you give them the right to. (Credit to you for doing your textures 100% by yourself, but the use of a - often commercial - texture library is common in 3D modeling).

This is 
not
the same as LL "
also has free use of those same textures they didn't create". They would have to obey the license of the library, just like everybody else.

Ok I'm a bit confused on this part, if you could clarify, I'd appreciate that, the bolded part that is.Let me explain why I am confused though...

This is just my opinion and of course, not fact, just how I am reading what you wrote. If the TOS of those sites have never allowed resale, those textures were already against that site's TOS before this change in Linden Lab TOS ever took place. Then once uploaded here, they were also against the TOS that existed here too, as the person did not have permission to use those textures in that manner based on the TOS they agreed to on the third party site. Uploading a texture into SL for your business, constitutes commercial use, and resale of that particular asset. Since people can, and do, use RL money to purchase those items you make, you will have broken the TOS of whatever site you got the assets from, if that site doesn't allow resale or commercial use. The change in Linden Lab TOS, does not change the TOS of that third party site, or the part of the TOS that states you must have rights to use those assets before you upload them.

So is it the fact that Linden Lab can now resell the asset, or is it the fact that these sites don't want to allow any resale of those textures? I do believe the two go hand in hand, although I may be alone in that thought. As in, if there is a problem with allowing Linden Lab the ability to resale these textures, there ought to be a problem with allowing users(SL creators) to resale them in their products as well. This is part of what I am trying to understand, the difference between a customer on a third party site being allowed resale rights for SL and allowing Linden Lab that same resale right once the asset has been uploaded to SL.. That would, of course, only apply to the sites that do not permit resale or commercial use. I'm sure there are some without that sort of TOS.

I hope no one thinks I was trying to knock people who do not create their textures from scratch, because I most definitely was not. Texture creation isn't all that easy, and I can fully understand why people use third party sites. I'm just a very finicky person when it comes to textures. That's why I do my own. I'm too nit picky about it.

Also if it helps clarify, my understanding was that by uploading any asset into SL I am, was, allowing Linden Lab the right to resale/utilize in any way that would promote SL in any fashion. That would include avdertising, promotional events and things like the stuff they sell on Amazon, among other things I am sure. Although Amazon itself is not Linden Lab property, the assets they are selling there, are only for use within SL. I always thought the verbage was very vague to begin with, which is why I interpreted it the way I did, making it much more clear in my own head and covering all bases. This way I didn't upload something I didn't intend to share with anyone else. As Linden Lab has always, in my mind, had the ability to utilize my assets for such things.

Entirely possible I've interpreted the TOS completely wrong since day one. I'm just trying to understand others' point of view on the matter. It's an interesting topic.

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Chic Aeon wrote:

So let's say I spent a month or more making a new sci fi avatar, head to toe, all mesh. I even made a matching AO with all new animations to fit the avatar. All the textures were from scratch. I made the avatar in Blender (so no shadowy illegal software even). I upload my avatar and it sells really well in world and on the Marketplace. Linden Lab sees this (we are still in a scenario here -- this has not happened) and decides to market the avatar through a high profile website. They sell the product that took a month of hard work to make. They get all the profits. They also potentially cut into my profits within SL.

THAT is the potential problem.

 

Ok that does help explain your position for me, thank you.

I was, and always have been, under the impression that they could do this anyway. It's how I've always interpreted the TOS. That is likely the largest contributor to my confusion on the topic.

I clearly minsinterpreted their TOS from day one, as I'd always thought what it says now, is what it has always meant. I just thought the verbage, like most from them, was very very vague, until now.

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In short, many libraries specifically do allow you to resell final items which contains parts from the library.

Others would, say, allow you to upload it to SL for personal use even if they do not allow resale.

Both uses will be blocked by LL claiming the right to use the textures as they please; that is exceeding the license, so you cannot allow that, and hence you cannot upload.

 

And as you say, you were previously "allowing Linden Lab the right to resale/utilize in any way that would promote SL in any fashion". Under the new ToS, they claim the right to use it for anything, whether SL-related or not.

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SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ---


I am still personally processing all this and will no doubt move on soon. However, I have seen comments about the new TOS simply being a way to cover ALL the Linden Research holdings. With that in mind (and because I AM still processing) I looked up the "other holdings" at lindenlab.com.

I knew about Patterns but not the others.

Interestingly enough if you go to each of the various holding's websites, the new TOS isn't on those sites; an older one is. And I noted in particular a holding called Desura which offers downloadable game content throughout the world ready for gamers to buy and play.   

The TOS for Desura is also the old one :D.

 

Sorry. Absolutely incorrect. I was comparing a different copy than the official it seems. 

 

I did find that in my web journey of the morning the TOS on the ADITI website is aparently from December 15, 2010. I have had to agree to TOS changes there twice lately so that can't be the correct. Won't be going back there for awhile though so it matters not.

 

 

 


and now the investigative reporter is taking some time off. Cheers.

 

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Chic Aeon wrote:

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ---

 

I am still personally processing all this and will no doubt move on soon. However, I have seen comments about the new TOS simply being a way to cover ALL the Linden Research holdings. With that in mind (and because I AM still processing) I looked up the "other holdings" at lindenlab.com.

I knew about Patterns but not the others.

Interestingly enough if you go to each of the various holding's websites, the new TOS isn't on those sites; an older one is. And I noted in particular a holding called Desura which offers downloadable game content throughout the world ready for gamers to buy and play.   

The TOS for Desura is also the old one
:D
.

 

and now the investigative reporter is taking some time off. Cheers.

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Are you sure?

I checked the Patterns and Desura home pages.

Scrolling down to the bottom of those pages and clicking on the hyperlink where it reads "Terms of Service" took me directly to the current LL TOS.

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Yes you are absolutely correct and I was coming back to line out my post. I was comparing someone else's copy and got confused. So the new TOS IS up on the sites. I have just finished reading though the changes again at the Google doc. MANY :D. Not just things that concern "us". :D

 

So sorry for the misinformation.

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Ok, concerning my earlier post (CG textures calling Linden Lab as Linden Labs)... :smileywink:

I sent them kind email telling of their mistake with words "you might want to correct the mistake...".

They indeed have done so. Now their announcement reads:

 

"Attention Second Life Users
(06th of September 2013)
Because of the latest Terms of Use update by Linden Lab, our images may no longer be added to Second Life.

Linden Lab (the company behind Second Life) has updated their Terms of Use in a way that claims all copyright to uploaded content, giving them rights to unlimited resale and redistribution of your work."  Etc, etc...

 

/me is satisfied  :matte-motes-whistle: :matte-motes-wink: :smileyhappy:

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Now if Linden Labs would correct their mistake and "repair" this phrase:

Except as otherwise described in any Additional Terms (such as a contest’s official rules) which will govern the submission of your User Content, you hereby grant to Linden Lab, and you agree to grant to Linden Lab, the non-exclusive, unrestricted, unconditional, unlimited, worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual, and cost-free right and license to use, copy, record, distribute, reproduce, disclose, sell, re-sell, sublicense (through multiple levels), modify, display, publicly perform, transmit, publish, broadcast, translate, make derivative works of, and otherwise exploit in any manner whatsoever, all or any portion of your User Content (and derivative works thereof), for any purpose whatsoever in all formats, on or through any media, software, formula, or medium now known or hereafter developed, and with any technology or devices now known or hereafter developed, and to advertise, market, and promote the same.

Then the rest of us would probably be satisfied as well :)

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:

Now if Linden Lab
s
would correct their mistake and "repair" this phrase:

Except as otherwise described in any Additional Terms (such as a contest’s official rules) which will govern the submission of your User Content,
you hereby grant to Linden Lab
, and you agree to grant to Linden Lab, the non-exclusive, unrestricted, unconditional, unlimited, worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual, and cost-free
right and license
to use, copy, record, distribute, reproduce, disclose, sell, re-sell, sublicense (through multiple levels), modify, display, publicly perform, transmit, publish, broadcast, translate, make derivative works of, and otherwise exploit
in any manner whatsoever
, all or any portion of your User Content (and derivative works thereof),
for any purpose whatsoever
in all formats, on or through any media, software, formula, or medium now known or hereafter developed, and with any technology or devices now known or hereafter developed, and to advertise, market, and promote the same.

Then the rest of us would probably be satisfied as well
:)

How about: "Linden Lab can do anything with your stuff except break the law."

Each character in the TOS costs LL 5000 us$ on attorney fees and we don't want them to bankrupt.

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You could even take out the "except break the law" part, since nobody is allowed to break the law. That would save at least another $85,000. (How much do spaces cost?)

That would be very nice. Problem is LL would have to verify every single upload and verify it again and still risk not having verified enough. That would cost a whole lot more.

Even worse, if those would be the ToS, LL wouldn't be able to move, show, let alone distribute our content, because they wouldn't have any rights or licenses to do so.

LL needs certain rights to make Second Life work, they don't need the right to sell our content "for any purpose whatsoever".

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