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A Reminder about Mesh and Its Foibles!


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Maybe I'm getting it wrong - perhaps it's the way I am reading things - but sometimes the problems with Mesh are improperly blamed on mesh creators.  While there are different levels of skill in all creators, they are alo faced with unusual challenges due to the system.  The standard sizing system for mesh clothing was designed to be a workaround for the poor rigging of the SL avatar and the under-developed mesh system.

Remember that the Lindens, when they implemented mesh, had no "idea" we would want to use it for clothes.  Incredible! Mesh for clothing was a low priority of the mesh project.  Honestly, they need to hire people who USE second life. sheesh!

So, continue to support your creators in second life by buying their goods.  I do.  It's far from a perfect system, but I have seen some nice things come out of it, DESPITE the poor implementation by the lindens.  If you can't wear tops or bottoms due to your shape, support them by buying accessories and shoes.

Furthermore, make some noise to the lindens about how unsatisfactory this is.  I am sure creators AGREE with you more than you will ever know.

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Maybe I'm getting it wrong - perhaps it's the way I am reading things - but sometimes the problems with Mesh are improperly blamed on mesh creators.  While there are different levels of skill in all creators, they are alo faced with unusual challenges due to the system.  The standard sizing system for mesh clothing was designed to be a workaround for the poor rigging of the SL avatar and the under-developed mesh system.

Remember that the Lindens, when they implemented mesh, had no "idea" we would want to use it for clothes.  Incredible! Mesh for clothing was a low priority of the mesh project.  Honestly, they need to hire people who USE second life. sheesh!

So, continue to support your creators in second life by buying their goods.  I do.  It's far from a perfect system, but I have seen some nice things come out of it, DESPITE the poor implementation by the lindens.  If you can't wear tops or bottoms due to your shape, support them by buying accessories and shoes.

Furthermore, make some noise to the lindens about how unsatisfactory this is.  I am sure creators AGREE with you more than you will ever know.

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braylasana wrote:

Maybe I'm getting it wrong - perhaps it's the way I am reading things - but sometimes the problems with Mesh are improperly blamed on mesh creators.  While there are different levels of skill in all creators, they are alo faced with unusual challenges due to the system.  The standard sizing system for mesh clothing was designed to be a
workaround
for the poor rigging of the SL avatar and the under-developed mesh system.

Remember that the Lindens, when they implemented mesh, 
had no "idea" we would want to use it for clothes
.  Incredible! 
Mesh for clothing was a low priority of the mesh project
.  Honestly, they need to hire people who USE second life. sheesh!

I firmly believe that if a present day linden employee is caught using SL.they will be disciplined or fired for it. All the ones that used to go inworld got tossed, and anytime one starts holding office hours now its a sure bet they have less than a few months before getting canned...

 

It also is the ONLY WAY to.explain how they managed to get the use case for mesh so wrong, despite people already talkimg about mostly fashion a good year before it went live...

 

The sheer lack of understanding they have for what their customers do with their product is just astounding... it is just... sad...

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I totally agree with everything said.  I see some amazing creations in mesh and am reminded when I do that the returns for designers within SL is diminishing due to the global recession and it is becoming harder and harder for them to turn any kind of profit.  So I am 100% behind all the designers and creators within SL and salute them.  It's becoming a thankless task at the best of times for them.  So here's a big thank you from me. :matte-motes-kiss:

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Honestly, when I first heard about mesh, I was yay, wow! Because I didn't think about mesh fashion at all. I just saw what cool things the talented creators could do in mesh, like houses, vehicles, all kinds of stuff. But clothes? Arrrgs, noooo!!!

And up to this day I hardly see any mesh clothes that fit me correctly or have much appeal for me. Skirts? Give me the good old flexi prims any time. Bikinis, t-shirts, jeans? Paint them on me. It's all good and fine, no need for stiff, ill-fitting stuff that shows invisible alpha layers and won't even move nicely.

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Orca Flotta wrote:

Honestly, when I first heard about mesh, I was yay, wow! Because I didn't think about mesh fashion at all. I just saw what cool things the talented creators could do in mesh, like houses, vehicles, all kinds of stuff. But clothes? Arrrgs, noooo!!!

And up to this day I hardly see any mesh clothes that fit me correctly or have much appeal for me. Skirts? Give me the good old flexi prims any time. Bikinis, t-shirts, jeans? Paint them on me. It's all good and fine, no need for stiff, ill-fitting stuff that shows invisible alpha layers and won't even move nicely.

That's my point - the reason mesh
"fits wrong"
is because the
Lindens
implemented mesh
wrong
.  It's not the fault of creators that there are fitting problems with mesh.  It's the crappy rigging of the avatar and the poor implementation of it.  The alpha layers and the standard sizes are workarounds.

 

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No. It would be ever so nice if were all Linden Lab's fault, creators blameless in all things, but no.

It's very difficult to rig mesh clothing properly.  Most of it is crap.

Yeah there are inherent limitations in the avatar mesh. That doesn't explain just how dreadful so much mesh is.

None of which is nice to say. Let the creators think they're making nice stuff, right? That was my strategy for a long time, but now I'm seeing more and more creators who don't bother with the DEMO mesh... and almost invariably, the stuff is crap.

So now I'm sick of it, and just out of fairness to consumers: Assume it's all crap. Most of it will be. If it doesn't have a demo, you'll be sorry you bought it.

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Sometimes, it seems to me, there are people who think if you make a complaint you can't possibly know what you're talking about. That's not always the case. In fact the majority of the complaints I have seen about mesh, inworld and on forums, are not only spot on but are worded pretty well and you can simply tell the person isn't just being overjudgmental or utterly frustrated for no reason. They do have a bit of knowledge and experience-even if only testing various mesh, and aren't speaking from their rear ends.

Yeah there are some people, and some complaints which really may not be warranted. I still think that most complaints are, and are also needed.

I am someone who perfectly understands the trials and tribulations with mesh, even if many of mine aren't quite the same ones others run into, I do understand them. I know how crappy the av mesh that ll gives us truly is. I know it's no easy task to create something to perfectly, or near perfectly, fit it(or anything really but since we're talking about the av mesh here, lol). Sl wasn't ready for clothing mesh when it came to be, imo, because it's still too unstable. I am glad it's out there, but it's going to keep having it's bumps and issues until we have something better base-wise to work with. It's expected behavior, imo.

That doesn't mean there aren't plenty of creators out there, like myself, who need a heck of a lot more practice in that area, dealing with what we have that is. I am the first one to admit there isn't a soul in sl who would ever want to wear something mesh I can create, at this stage of my process. There really isn't. In fact my children will likely create better mesh products before I do, especially clothing. I can recognize quite well when something just isn't right(sometimes). Mostly, because it's something I do too, or have seen others do as well in things I have obtained. When something is just poorly made, it's just poorly made. There's no point in beating around the bush about it, lol. Mesh certainly doesn't hold the torch to that though. It's been happening with creations since the dawn of sl.

Clothing mesh is just not as far as other mesh is, quality wise, I don't believe. It's not entirely the creators' faults, absolutely not. The main blame sits with ll. I know this. But I also know that improvement with what we have, is possible. Or else there wouldn't be creators able to do just that, and able to make it work pretty darn well too considering the base they have to work with. It's not me being mean or putting people down. I would only directly answer if a creator specifically asked me "hey, does this look ok", or actually wants the feedback(some do not, I have found, lol). I won't make posts bashing a specific creator, or store. But I will state my opinion on mesh as a whole as far as my experience goes. I can also, sometimes, share what I know others have said. I think that's a good thing. People can only improve when they believe there is room for improvement. Better than getting stagnate, right?

My opinions as far as mesh are concerned don't stop me from supporting creators. I think it's a tad silly to suggest it would for anyone. But if I don't like a creators work on outfits, I'm not likely to buy their accessories either. Which is perfectly reasonable, I believe. I do the same with creators of all kinds of things, not just mesh. Though I do tend to offer a larger buffer room than some might. The learning curve can be enormous for some of us, and I understand that so very, very well.

It isn't just mesh creators that can, or do, have a rough go at times. It's creators of all sorts that can, and do. Mesh certaily doesn't make this problem any worse, or any better. It is what it is. The economy is what it is too, both in sl and rl. So we have to work with what we've got and sometimes it means putting more into it than we believe we already are. Any creator that thinks criticism is always a bad thing, may not be in the best of fields. I don't say that to be mean, I say it to be realistic. Criticism is very important when you have an end user of your products. You can't possibly know what they want, what they need, what they desire and where you're lacking without it. This is the reason why my opinions are as general as they are. They're never directed to anyone specifis on the forums especially, because they can help more if I  keep it general. At least that's my thought process, perhaps it makes no sense to anyone but me.

I'm a terrible mesh creator, absolutely horrid, right now. I'll get better. But if others don't tell me it's bad, it needs improvement, it doesn't fit right...I'll never learn. It's as vital as, if not more so than, praise, imo. I do that too, btw, praise merchants, and support them. I share the wealth :D

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braylasana wrote:



That's my point - the reason mesh
"fits wrong"
is because the
Lindens
implemented mesh
wrong
.  It's not the fault of creators that there are fitting problems with mesh.  It's the crappy rigging of the avatar and the poor implementation of it.  The alpha layers and the standard sizes are workarounds.

 

That's not entirely true. If it were, there wouldn't be ANY good mesh around, and there is. It may not suit ME, but it suits others and thta's enough for me to know that while difficult, it's still possible. Difficult shouldn't stop anyone, and it doesn't stop most. I am going to assume you've not actually gotten anything very poorly rigged. No one has ever denied the base av mesh we have sucks donkey toes. It really does and has since the beginning. Yet, some manage making some simply stunning things around it.

Standard sizes MAY have been a good workaround before, but they aren't always. I'll also guess you ahven't gotten multiple things listed as "standard sizing" and can clearly tell the standard bit isn't even. It happens, and I get that. My complaint about standard sizes is that there isn't a standard anymore. There was, and regardless of whether or not it did work for me, it did for others. I think that's an awesome thing. But when standard isn't standard anymore, it can get confusing. Now try explaining that to people new to sl, or new to mesh, and see how far it gets ya. Sl has a steep learning curve as it is, toss in things like standards that aren't standard and you're gonna have some frustrated folks on your hands. Whether you believe rightly so or not, they believe they have every right (and I happen to agree on most counts).

Sometimes it really IS the creator at fault. Just because the base mesh av body sucks, doesn't mean it can't be worked aorund at all. It can, and it is. Which tells me there are plenty of people in sl, like myself, that just need more practice. It's not difficult for me to admit this. It's not difficult for me to accept this. It shouldn't be difficult for anyone else to either. It's all a learning process and none of us will ever be on the very same step. It's not that big of a deal to say so.

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Oo

creators are faced with those challenges on just about every level of creation in sl..

the tools themselves have to be overcame and worked around in alot of things..this is nothing new..

mesh is nothing special to that..

the whole of sl  is one big troubleshoot..that is how things work everywhere..not just i SL..

and it's what seperates a lot of great and good and bad things in here..

if things went smooth and easy..more would be doing it..

talent  overcomes the obsticles to put out some really nice stuff..

and i support those that pull it off..

 

No Demos no buy..

that's my slogan.

hehehe

 

 

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That's why I said "sometimes".  I know that some creators can make things better than others.   The thing I am talking about here is the fact that the standard sizing is a workaround for a deficiency in design that works to varying degrees.  I just want people to keep that in mind until a better solution is found for avatars.

I totally agree with trying demos before purchase, no matter what type of clothing one is purchasing.  I feel as though creators who don't supply demos have something to hide.

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Tari Landar wrote:

 

Standard sizes MAY have been a good workaround before, but they aren't always. I'll also guess you ahven't gotten multiple things listed as "standard sizing" and can clearly tell the standard bit isn't even. It happens, and I get that. My complaint about standard sizes is that there isn't a standard anymore.

Standard sizing in RL is even a bit "iffy."  Some of us find brands that fit us and stick with those.  I have in my closet clothes ranging from the US female size 10-16 that all fit me.  Also, higher-priced designer brands generally are always smaller than the stated size.  In Liz Claibourne jeans, for example, a size 12 is more like a size 8.

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braylasana wrote:

That's why I said "
sometimes"
.  I know that some creators can make things better than others.   The thing I am talking about here is the fact that the standard sizing is a workaround for a deficiency in design that works to varying degrees.  I just want people to keep that in mind until a better solution is found for avatars.

I totally agree with trying demos before purchase, no matter what type of clothing one is purchasing.  I feel as though creators who don't supply demos have something to hide.

if we had the deformer in here..things would open up a lot more..

my viewer lets me check it out and it's pretty nice hehehe...

 

and really standard sizes has a pretty good range for avatars most times..

i mean we still have to wear the alphas.

which if you ask me the alphas are the true work around to mesh not the standard sizes..

we have to wear those with smaller sizes as well in most cases..

 

in system clothes we had to have different layers ..mesh we have to have a few different sizes..

but alpha is what really makes them fit most times..

because even standard sizes can't adjust for body shape in different proportions of any size..

alpha do..

 

alpha was the work around for sculpties as well..

 

 

 

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