Harassment and the bad review

[Senobia Xenga]

I would go back and edit the review (can you do that?) and add how you are being harrassed by the merchant for said review. I mean if you're going to talk about your bad experience, you might as well tell all of it, right?

 

Maybe they will be a little less apt to do it to the next unflattering reviewer.

[Ren Toxx]

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Sephina Frostbite wrote: [...] 

Then proceded to say they wont go away till I do.

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I fully agree with Xenobia. Trying to sort it out is one thing, but at the exact point I quoted from you, it became harassment, plain and simple... and this, too, is something other customers might want to know.

Whether he does, in fact, keep bothering you isn't very relevant; as has been explained, you can mute, AR, add further comments to your own review explaining how and for how long he's kept harassing you... not to mention, there's other venues to denounce it, some of which aren't necessarily as restricted by TOS. All in all, it could turn out far, far worse for him than for you.

Unless he chooses to remove the item and re-list it, to get rid of your bad review, of course. But then again, that's AR'able, too.

[Ceka Cianci]

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PeterCanessa Oh wrote:

Abuse-report them for harrassment if that's what they're doing.  Then they have a bad review AND an AR, or even a ban.

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This^^

 

[Melita Magic]

And Reeva by the way I accept your apology.

[Pamela Galli]

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Reeva Hax wrote:

First, I never meant to insult you, Melita (never ever!) so, my apologies if I was not clear enough and gave you that impression. My bad. 

Then, If I may: 

"

In short the customer isn't always 

wrong"

I sincerely didn't imagined that what I wrote could be taken as such of the idea that a customer is always wrong. My bad again, evidently, because to me is impossible to think that. 

"

So a review is only permissible if the product is completely different or needs to be completely changed

? 

"

Nonono, please. I absolutely did not meant that too. I said contact the merchant

first or before the review 

for those things that can be fixed in 5 minutes, as wrong permissions/missing textures/missing parts (basically the ones that can be pacaging mistakes or SL glitches/bugs). I said I agree with the choice of the review

alone, without contact the merchant

for the other issues that can't be fixed in 5 minutes and that are not possible packaging/SL mistakes

. 

"

Why wouldn't a missing piece be grounds for a mention in a review? That's a major flaw

"

A little premise if I may. In my direct experience, all the time someone contacted me for a missing piece, the piece was not missing at all from the package. For some strange reason it did not appear in the inventory folder of the buyer (and most of the time popped up after a relog). Of course I always apologized to the customer for the issue and sent immediately a replacement, even knowing was a bug.

Anyway is more than sure that a merchant can make a mistake and leave out a piece when packing the item. 

But why go for the review alone without contact the merchant in first place, in order to not only speed up things to fix the problem but also help the next customer before the mistake is realized by the merchant her/himself?

"

So reviewers just like to rant?

"

No, I meant that I do not understand well the ones that leaves

the review alone without any contact with the merchant for those rapidly fixable issues listed before

(

as wrong permissions/missing textures/missing parts - basically the ones that can be packaging mistakes or SL glitches/bugs

), and I added that maybe the reason for that kind of approach is just a rant and not a desire to have the correct item.

"

The customer's place is not to work for the creator or merchant in RL or in SL and alert them to every problem

"

 

Of course not. But... don't they want the correct item they decided to purchase? If yes, why not call the merchant? That puzzles me. 

Again, my apologies if my post was not well structured or well explained and could be not understood right.

PS To me the customer is precious and customer care one of the highest priority in a business. The goal is to satisfy and make him/her happy. But is a bit more easy when the customer also helps a tiny little bit in this process

 

 

ETA: point clarification

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Good post, Reeva :-)

I have such lovely customers.  They know two things about me: 1) I sometimes make mistakes and 2) I drop everything and fix mistakes when I am notified. 

If there was a way to notify everyone in SL of these two truths I would do it, to spare those who demand perfection from ever buying anything from me. Unfortunately I have not found a way to do this, and so they do buy my things, and they do not notify me of my mistakes (or what they think are mistakes but are not*), and instead they post negative reviews.

I agree that what these people want is to rant, not to get the problem fixed. 

*I got a one star review from someone last week who announced that my dining set had "zero" eating animations. Of course it does have them, but she never contacted me so I could explain how to wear an item from inventory to start the animation. 

 

[Sephina Frostbite]

I understand customers jumping the gun but its never that in my case. Sometimes the customer is also innocent. I do know it does happen the other way around however this was never the case.

[Pamela Galli]

My post was not directed at yours Sephina, but at Reeva's -- in particular about the idea that any creator that makes one mistake ( or appears to, since the apparent mistake is not always an actual one) should receive a negative review instead of / before being contacted. I agree with Reeva that if these reviewers were really interested in getting the problem fixed, they would contact the creator about it first. 

 

I am just glad that 99% of my customers are so very understanding when I make a mistake. 

[Ceka Cianci]

omg i would probably get so mad that i would lose track of what they were contacting me for and just unload all lifes probelms at one time..

i'm sure the argument would endup at some point sounding like this..

because hell will be unleashed from all directions!! \o/

hehehe

 

[Melita Magic]

I think you are assuming a lot about customers (in general), Pamela. Their motivations, their responsibility.

You are correct, in my opinion, to assume your cusotmers are doing you a favor to call your attention to a flaw in the product. (Which is just what I also said, up thread.)

Don't assume that because someone has written a review in which they say anything less than OMG 5 stars I saw fireworks and the earth moved, they are a cretin or jerk who just wants to downgrade someone, and can't be bothered to 'fix' something (it's really odd to me anyone would think that's their duty.)

How in the world is the customer to read teh creator's mind and know they 'made a mistake' vs. not freaking caring. How are they to know the creator will be easy to deal with, or waste time with IMs going back and forth and put them through a long rigamarole just to try to begin the process of a refund, or exchange.

I would think most creators would be annoyed and offended at a customer IMing them to say "please change t his about your product" since I would personally think the creator knew what they wanted to make.

Creators who wish feedback can certainly state that in their store or product descriptions and/or have a mailbox or suggestion box in their in world shops.

A customer has every right to post a review with honest detailed feedback about that product and if a creator wishes to 'fix the product' after that, they have still done the creator a favor. They have absolutely no obligation to go begging to the creator beforehand, and that is often a waste of everyone's time.

If three stars is going to result in butt hurt, the 'merchant' is not being professional to begin with. They should improve the product and come out with version 2 fixing those issues. If you sent someone something that is not what was advertised, or it doesn't work, not because they did not read the note card or did not understand basics of SL (and obviously the 'customer is an idiot' stories are offensive to me), then that's on YOU. 

[Melita Magic]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

in particular about the idea that any creator that makes one mistake ( or appears to, since the apparent mistake is not always an actual one) should receive a negative review instead of / before being contacted. 

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If you meant my posts, that is not what I actually said (or meant.) I said they have the right to do that, and they do not have the OBLIGATION to contact the merchant/creator first. Huge difference between that and saying "don't ever contact a merchant about a problem...make sure to give them a terrible review instead."

[Melita Magic]

Angry cats rule. I like the version where the ginger cat says "you have shamed our family!"

[Melita Magic]

I do have a question for merchants who feel the customer is obligated to contact them first before they can write a review (like raising hand for teacher.)

This is to any Merchant. And, I am being serious (except where obviously facetious or hypothetical, although those are serious in a way, as they are connected to my main points.)

How long should the customer wait for a response before they are allowed to write and post their Marketplace review, in your opinion?

I have in fact asked about a product if the merchant seems very professional in their business, has an SL presence (in world), their profile is not unfriendly, their profile does not state 100 stipulations for any sort of redress, etc. etc. If I get a negative feeling from a profile or it's blank or evident they haven't logged into SL in years, I leave a review.

My experiences in dealing with merchants in similar situations (too many variables in products to list here) is they run the gamut from missing in action (no longer in SL or shop gone), angry (at being contacted at all), to disinterested, to hobbyist without a real policy or wish to address something, to egotistically involved with their creations, to impossible to deal with. I am sure their customer stories are similar.

And some are very friendly, apologize for any inconvenience, try to address the problem whatever it was, or reply in some way that is helpful (even if it isn't a refund or improvement or exchange.) In short once in a while a merchant/creator is a joy to work with. Those are almost always the ones whose profiles and creations show real joy in their work to begin with.

I am much more likely as a result, due to intuition and past experience (myself and others I've heard about) to contact a person like that. Not because "I will post a bad review otherwise" but because in a few select cases, in which need and situation dovetail well, that is the logical next step. (Example: A request to make something slightly different, that fits my wish better; my expectation outside the product range is not the creator's 'fault.' For instance a smaller or taller chair, which can be hard to judge from a photo in Marketplace.) I then post a review regarding the entire process, including their excellent customer service response.

And again such details do help shoppers who might also want to know those details which are not on the page (and I suggested up thread that merchants write thorough product descriptions - you will avoid those types of reviews or at least, that type of content in a review - they won't be necessary. I think I even gave an example: mesh/not mesh. People also like to know if resize is scripted or manual or not at all.) So, again, every review is doing you a favor as well - the 'troll' ones ("this sucks" being the entirety) are ignored by all, and are therefore inapplicable to my point.

I also post reviews glowing about a product for the slightest level of customer satisfaction. So I like to think I have increased business for many people. I have not sought to decrease anyone's business but rather to post a warning if something is amiss or not as described - in one case an item had some sort of negative script attached. (I believe it required more money sent to creator before use and/or required people to pay to use it, with most of that going to the creator. No, not a mere or legitimate debit situation as in game tables.) Plus, the product itself did not work (I believe it was outdated.) I also believe that if a product requires RL info from the buyer, or to download things outside SL, customers need to know that. Not everyone wants to do that just to buy some little tchotchke in a virtual universe. 

There are some nightmare merchants out there just as there are some nightmare customers. I don't have time in the day to hand hold them all. I'm going to choose who I approach with a concern about something and who I do not - end of story.

I would like an answer to the above question though (top of post.)

I would add a follow-up question, on further thought: 

So let's say the customer wishes to write "I wish the skirt had a resize script, but it did not." But instead, they have taken time from their day to go through whatever process the merchant has dictated, in an attempt to beg permission to express their opinion. So the customer does said process and waits.

If the merchant promises a 'fix' to the product or a replacement, or says "yes I will put the resize scripts in those skirts" or whatever it is (hypothetical), how long should the customer wait before they are allowed to post a review, in your opinion? (Or are they still not allowed at all?) How long before the customer is allowed to then write "I contacted Merchant; they said they would change X, but never did?"

Or maybe the customer is never allowed to review anything except 5 stars and OMG, and the real purpose of that duct tape kit on Marketplace has been revealed?  (It is for a customer's mouth and hands.)

And why do you feel it's the customer's obligation to take time from their real life for all those IMs and/or note cards and/or contacting this and that and the other customer service rep or filing a ticket or clicking a well-hidden-in-a-laggy-corner this or a that in the enormous, flying-disabled, TP-routing-disabled store (or mall) in SL, and make reminders to themselves to check into SL and go back and see or IM to find out if the promised change has been made, description page has been updated with details, or product problem addressed? Why do you feel that's your entitlement as a creator who's being paid to get it right the first time? 

Also, please note the title of this topic - replies within it are in response to that situation - being harassed by a creator because of a tepid or a negative review. That should be the focus here - not how horrible a customer is not to come on hands and knees saying "can I please write one yet teacher?"

 

[Pamela Galli]

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Melita Magic wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

in particular about the idea that any creator that makes one mistake ( or appears to, since the apparent mistake is not always an actual one) should receive a negative review instead of / before being contacted. 

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If you meant my posts, that is not what I actually said (or meant.) I said they have the right to do that, and they do not have the OBLIGATION to contact the merchant/creator first. Huge difference between that and saying "don't ever contact a merchant about a problem...make sure to give them a terrible review instead."

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Again, I was explicitly responding to Reeva's statement, which I quoted in its entirely. 

I don't think anyone claims that buyers don't have the right to post whatever they want. Let me be clear what my point is:  I work very hard to make good products, but I do make mistakes. I appreciate the graciousness of my customers who notify me of those mistakes and give me the opportunity to correct them -- instead of posting a negative review.

 

In your post above you say:  "Why do you feel that's your entitlement as a creator who's being paid to get it right the first time?" 

 

I suppose you could say that everyone who is employed is being paid to "get it right the first time", but the fact is, few us actually do that, all the time. Do you, Melita, "get it right the first time"? All the time? If so, you must either be a very special person or have a very easy job.

And if not, how do you want your employers to handle it when you fail to get it right the first time-- do you want them to give you feedback that will allow you to correct mistakes or do you want them to broadcast it? 

 

 

[Melita Magic]

That was the general "you," which I should have specified. (I thought it implied; I was talking about all in the situation, not just one person.)

I really don't think your analogy holds up. Someone working FOR an employer is not the same as a customer who is purchasing something. Kind of a telling comparison though - so some merchants do apparently feel it is the customer's "job" to bring things to the merchant as if they worked for them.

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Pamela Galli wrote:

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Melita Magic wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

in particular about the idea that any creator that makes one mistake ( or appears to, since the apparent mistake is not always an actual one) should receive a negative review instead of / before being contacted. 

---

If you meant my posts, that is not what I actually said (or meant.) I said they have the right to do that, and they do not have the OBLIGATION to contact the merchant/creator first. Huge difference between that and saying "don't ever contact a merchant about a problem...make sure to give them a terrible review instead."

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Again, I was explicitly responding to Reeva's statement, which I quoted in its entirely. 

I don't think anyone claims that buyers don't have the right to post whatever they want. Let me be clear what my point is:  I work very hard to make good products, but I do make mistakes. I appreciate the graciousness of my customers who notify me of those mistakes and give me the opportunity to correct them -- instead of posting a negative review.

 

In your post above you say:  "

Why do you feel that's your entitlement as a creator who's being paid to get it right the first time?" 

 

I suppose you could say that everyone who is employed is being paid to "get it right the first time", but the fact is, few us actually do that, all the time. Do you, Melita, "get it right the first time"? All the time? If so, you must either be a very special person or have a very easy job.

And if not, how do you want your employers to handle it when you fail to get it right the first time-- do you want them to give you feedback that will allow you to correct mistakes or do you want them to broadcast it? 

 

 

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[Pamela Galli]

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Melita Magic wrote:

That was the general "you," which I should have specified. (I thought it implied; I was talking about all in the situation, not just one person.)

I really don't think your analogy holds up. Someone working FOR an employer is not the same as a customer who is purchasing something. Kind of a telling comparison though - so some merchants do apparently feel it is the customer's "job" to bring things to the merchant as if they worked for them.

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Wow. You are really confused. In my analogy, YOU would be the one held accountable, like the merchant, and your employer would be the one you would be accountable to, like the customer.

And I notice you did not answer the question -- even if you are not employed and never have been, surely you must have had some responsibilities to someone at some point, whether you were paid or not.

Did you "get it right the first time" 100% of the time?  And if not, did the person to whom you were accountable offer you feedback to help you correct the problem, or did he announce it over the intercom?  Which would you prefer?

 

[Trinity Yazimoto]

Well, at least for me, review and iming the merchant for whatever is congratulation or a asking for a fix, doesnt have the same purpose.

Review is for rating, evaluating the product from the point of view of the customer. what doess/he think of the product. Nothing more. That has nothing to do with an im. I may of course im a merchant for congratulate or ask for a fix or even pester. I do. But when i do a review im not in the same approach at all. Im just give an evaluation from my point of view. Nothing more.

When you bring something publically, like when you sell your items, but it s same if you just show art, you have to face the fact not everyone will like it... 

I know there are unfairs reviews, some with even nefarious purpose. That's a fact.. but that s not a generality. A review still remain a rating way. and if i think an item i bought only desserve 1 or 2 stars, ill say it and explain why. The fact i contact the merchant or not is totally another story. 

[Melita Magic]

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

Well, at least for me, review and iming the merchant for whatever is congratulation or a asking for a fix, doesnt have the same purpose.

Review is for rating, evaluating the product from the point of view of the customer. what doess/he think of the product. Nothing more. That has nothing to do with an im. I may of course im a merchant for congratulate or ask for a fix or even pester. I do. But when i do a review im not in the same approach at all. Im just give an evaluation from my point of view. Nothing more.

When you bring something publically, like when you sell your items, but it s same if you just show art, you have to face the fact not everyone will like it... 

I know there are unfairs reviews, some with even nefarious purpose. That's a fact.. but that s not a generality. A review still remain a rating way. and if i think an item i bought only desserve 1 or 2 stars, ill say it and explain why. The fact i contact the merchant or not is totally another story. 

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Thank you, you've said it more simply and elegantly, and I agree with all of this.

I don't understand why such a simple concept is even being disputed.

A customer paid money. A customer gives their thoughts and impressions of the product and maybe includes the experience of buying it as well (did it arrive on time, did it perform as expected, if they had any interaction with the 'merchant' what that was like, etc.) Simple system, it's worked for decades, before internet, in the newspaper, or on television, there are things even called 'reviewers' who do this for a living. Food critics, etc. 

I wonder if it's the food critic's job to go and tell the chef "It wasn't very tasty today, can you try again?" or whether he or she writes the review.

Pamela: Both your first and recent posts to me were so very rude I should not even have replied. I took quite a bit of time in my reply instead. Yes I misunderstood your analogy and realized that after I hit send but did not change my reply because it works still. A customer and seller do not have a symbiotic employer-employee relationship in either direction. Someone creates and sells and puts it out there, if they expect the customer to come back (which still is true in your analogy, changes nothing, so I'm not sure why I'm to react as if you're being genius there) and whisper gently in the seller's ear "hey did you know this didn't work" ...

As Trinity pointed out quite deftly: they are two different things.

A review is from customer to customer, really; which in the end benefits the seller too. I've taken pains to say why and so have others.

You know coicidentally tonight I tried to IM a creator about their product stopping working. No reason it should; it just did. Without going into detail I'll just say I waited a while with no reply they were not in busy mode and were online. So in the magical world of symbiotic nirvana customer and seller relationships maybe that doesn't happen but in reality usually there's no reply as I took pains to point out and which you completely ignored. I also outlined other reasons people tire of or stop trying to work with creators to change things or improve things but bottom line it is not their job. In your analogy the customer still is working for the merchant if their duty is to come back and report to them.

About the rest of your post...I don't have to answer personal jabs and I'm not going to Pamela, your insults were completely unnecessary.

 

[Melita Magic]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

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Melita Magic wrote:

That was the general "you," which I should have specified. (I thought it implied; I was talking about all in the situation, not just one person.)

I really don't think your analogy holds up. Someone working FOR an employer is not the same as a customer who is purchasing something. Kind of a telling comparison though - so some merchants do apparently feel it is the customer's "job" to bring things to the merchant as if they worked for them.

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Wow. You are really confused. In my analogy, YOU would be the one held accountable, like the merchant, and your employer would be the one you would be accountable to, like the customer.

And I notice you did not answer the question -- even if you are not employed and never have been, surely you must have had some responsibilities to someone at some point, whether you were paid or not.

Did you "get it right the first time" 100% of the time?  And if not, did the person to whom you were accountable offer you feedback to help you correct the problem, or did he announce it over the intercom?  Which would you prefer?

 

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It's still a clumsy analogy Pamela, poorly explained, and does not work either way. Let's say it's an office setting - reviews are not normally part of that process (there is no 'product' - I'm not talking about job performance reviews, which are intrinsic there.) You still seem to think between customer-seller one is there to "give feedback". Analogy just doesn't work no matter how it's turned, sorry (And I'm not sure how to better explain to you just why your analogy is poor.) (It also presumes that the person IS the product - bit of a giveaway there. Merchants need to distance themselves and their 'feelings' from what they sell. Period. That's kind of the point of this topic in my opinion.)

You also seem to think I 'owe' you some sort of justification for my opinion and even to lay bare my life history here. I have taken pains to 'explain' which might be misread as a 'defense' but I have no reason to feel guilty, so it is not. I wouldn't bother this long in IM but this goes straight to google and many more read than post.

About the slams toward me in your post above: At least take half responsibility for a faulty communication before the huge insults come out. (That was rhetorical.) And the personal slams? Really - bit disappointing. /counts down until she comes back with "why would that be a slam?" As for not answering your question - are you serious? And besides you didn't answer mine still, which was at least germane, not about you personally (your life or history), and on topic.

PS if a merchant hates the entire thought of a review then in my opinion they should either not sell in a place which has reviews built into it, or perhaps not put their product out there at all.  If a customer had a wish that wasn't met in a product, that is the purpose of a review. Very simple.

[Melita Magic]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

in particular about the idea that any creator that makes one mistake ( or appears to, since the apparent mistake is not always an actual one) should receive a negative review instead of / before being contacted. 

---

 

Again, I was explicitly responding to Reeva's statement, which I quoted in its entirely. 

 

 

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I quoted the part of it I was referring to. (Above.) Reeva was replying to the same 'idea' you said you were actually talking about in your 'reply to Reeva' - but who was putting forth that idea? Some in this topic including myself. It clearly was not Reeva putting forth "the idea that any creator that makes one mistake should reeceive a negative review before being contacted."

And that is the part of your post I was asking about - which is why I quoted that part of it. 

And that is why I asked if you were referring to my posts. (And because other 'customers' have said the same as I did.)

[Melita Magic]

And BTW how ironic that some merchants are harassing here about the very idea of writing a review - an imaginary or putative one at that.

[Ceka Cianci]

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Melita Magic wrote:

Angry cats rule. I like the version where the ginger cat says "you have shamed our family!"

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ya i was in tears watching that..that and cobra cat..

i'm gonna have to find the otherone now and watch it hehehehe

[Pamela Galli]

Melita, for the third and final time: My entire and only point in this thread is to express my gratitude for customers who contact me when they have a problem, rather than first reporting the problem in a negative review. 

I did not really expect you to answer the question I asked twice, about how you would feel being held to your standard of "getting it right the first time", every time. 

As far as all the rest of the content of your posts addressed to me, I have no idea where it is coming from as it has nothing to do with anything I have said in this thread, so I will continue to refrain from commenting on it, other than to observe that, unlike most of us, you seem to have had predominantly negative experiences with merchants in SL. 

You can carry on with your bizarre attacks but I will not be participating.

 

 

[Maelstrom Janus]

Sorry but I think you should have contacted the creator about the problem first before leaving the bad review Im afraid in this instance I think you were wrong...

[Sephina Frostbite]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

My post was not directed at yours Sephina, but at Reeva's -- in particular about the idea that any creator that makes one mistake ( or appears to, since the apparent mistake is not always an actual one) should receive a negative review instead of / before being contacted. I agree with Reeva that if these reviewers were really interested in getting the problem fixed, they would contact the creator about it first. 

 

I am just glad that 99% of my customers are so very understanding when I make a mistake. 

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Thank you for clearing that up. If I recieve a defective product and the merchant helps me I am more likely going to go back to them because I know if anything happens they are willing to help. Recently I bought a pair of feet that used my skin applier but when I use it it doesnt match my feet. All I got was, "It should work" That was all. I think after what I spent on them I would have been helped out a lot more but no. I am left to eather be out of money, change my skin (no way) or figure it out and there is nothing I am doing wrong so I have no clue how else to go about it. 

[Trinity Yazimoto]

one question about your feet Sephina.. when you set the color skin do you have basic shaders enabled ?

i usually run with low graphics without basic shaders on when im not doing photos and i had hard times to set my feet color skin with my main skin.. i spent hours and usually it always ended with me giving up.. Then one, day my friend Goran, who also create shoes and feet, told me to enable basic shaders.. it was just magic lol...Now, everytime i need to set a skin color for feed, i start by enabling basic shaders.. otherwise its just impossible to make them match.