Viewers?

[Sam16 Clarity]

Singularity has a tools format that  Iove and I am not liking the new viewer tools format. How about making both types of formats for those of us who dont want to have to switch and relearn.  We just wanna play the game not have to relearn the tools over and over again. 

I undertstand that you are trying to help by having better tool formats but maybe you can just improve on the format at hand and still have it look the same.  Its harder to keep playing on a game you get frustrated with. Also the prices of things in SL are ridiculously high and Im sure you will find lots that are willing to keep paying for land that is low in prims but high in price but some of us are downsizing and a lot of us are starting to not want land because its just to dang expensive and too low of prims to deal with when you want nice things.  With todays economy you are going to lose out no matter how much nicer the look of something is, or how well it rezzes... people want to have a nice place to play and not have to go broke doing it.  They would rather play the free Sims and many of my friends are already going over there.

 

[KarenMichelle Lane]

Sam,

Welcome to SL Answers - We are all volunteers here and Residents just like you. No Lindens frequents this forum.

SecondLife is Linden Lab's baby and the official Viewer is provided by Linden Lab.

Since your view of SL has only been through Singularity we can appreciate your love of it's features but that said, Singularity's tools format is not the standard for SL. You might want to repost this over in the General Discussions Forum to get a dialog going about your thoughts.

 

[jwenting]

do you have anything to contribute except another baseless rant about how bad LL is, Sam?

[Syo Emerald]

Sims? Seriously?

LOL

[Dilbert Dilweg]

Second Life Official viewer was here first. And the buttons and format was first.

Singularity and all other TPV seem to make the format and names different from the official viewer and use OLD outdated format. For which you got used to using. So your beef should be with third party viewers not sticking to the original formats.

This in turn makes it impossible for TPV users to help new residents who come to SL because the buttons and format are not the same

Seems like it is all your fault here lol

[Czari Zenovka]

---

Dilbert Dilweg wrote:

Second Life Official viewer was here first. And the buttons and format was first.

Singularity and all other TPV seem to make the format and names different from the official viewer and use OLD outdated format. For which you got used to using. So your beef should be with third party viewers not sticking to the original formats.

This in turn makes it impossible for TPV users to help new residents who come to SL because the buttons and format are not the same

Seems like it is all your fault here lol

---

Do you ever say anything remotely positive?

[Perrie Juran]

---

Dilbert Dilweg wrote:

Second Life Official viewer was here first. And the buttons and format was first.

Singularity and all other TPV seem to make the format and names different from the official viewer and use OLD outdated format. For which you got used to using. So your beef should be with third party viewers not sticking to the original formats.

This in turn makes it impossible for TPV users

to help new residents who come to SL because the buttons and format are not the same

Seems like it is all your fault here lol

---

My bolding above.  No it doesn't make it impossible, just difficult at times.

As far as these "old button names" are concerned, we do need to remember who renamed some of the buttons in the first place.  The company that designed the failure that was Viewer 2 perchance?  Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.  An interesting thought.

But you know, whenever I think about the topic, I always feel that the Viewer of Choice, the Viewer that the Majority of people use, should be the Official Viewer, with the TPV's catering to a niche market of specialty users.

But instead it is the other way around.  The primary niche Market for the Official Viewer is Newbies.  And that is mainly because when they register, they don't know there are other (better?) options.  And quite obviously, among the majority of those who stick around, they quickly find that using a TPV is a better option.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Here's an interesting thought for Rodvik on new user retention:

"You only get one chance at a first impression."

Could there be some low hanging fruit there?

[Marigold Devin]

Singularity is one of the viewers I have yet to try out, but I felt the same as you when Phoenix turned into Firestorm, but the developers there have made it so that Firestorm can be used almost the same as Phoenix was. Win win.

Have you tried many of the other viewers?  I try different ones from time to time to compare, but it is rather like finding a handbag or a pair of shoes that end up being your fave isn't it? 

I hope you feel a little better for letting off steam here in the forums, but you can direct suggestions and thoughts by snail mail to Linden Lab HQ in Battery Street, San Francisco (consult with main website for full contact address).  They seem to think they know what they're doing, but I'm sure they'd take on board any constructive criticisms and ideas, ie Viewer 3, when it first came out as Viewer 2, was obnoxious and user-unfriendly, but has evolved over time into something that is .... (actually I cannot finish this sentence - maybe answers on a postcard for that one! :matte-motes-wink-tongue:  )

[Theresa Tennyson]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Dilbert Dilweg wrote:

Second Life Official viewer was here first. And the buttons and format was first.

Singularity and all other TPV seem to make the format and names different from the official viewer and use OLD outdated format. For which you got used to using. So your beef should be with third party viewers not sticking to the original formats.

This in turn makes it impossible for TPV users

to help new residents who come to SL because the buttons and format are not the same

Seems like it is all your fault here lol

---

My bolding above.  No it doesn't make it impossible, just difficult at times.

As far as these "old button names" are concerned, we do need to remember who renamed some of the buttons in the first place.  The company that designed the failure that was Viewer 2 perchance?  Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.  An interesting thought.

But you know, whenever I think about the topic, I always feel that the Viewer of Choice, the Viewer that the Majority of people use, should be the Official Viewer, with the TPV's catering to a niche market of specialty users.

But instead it is the other way around.  The primary niche Market for the Official Viewer is Newbies.  And that is mainly because when they register, they don't know there are other (better?) options.  And quite obviously, among the majority of those who stick around, they quickly find that using a TPV is a better option.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Here's an interesting thought for Rodvik on new user retention:

"You only get one chance at a first impression."

Could there be some low hanging fruit there?

---

Actually I believe that the Linden Lab viewer was already a minority viewer before Viewer 2 was released and one of the reasons for Viewer 2's redesign was how many people thought Viewer 1's interface was a hot mess - in other words, they realized "You only get one chance at a first impression." I started out on Viewer 2 in late 2010 and people tried to get me to switch to Phoenix back then. I took one look at it and said to myself, "What's up with this crap?!"

[Perrie Juran]

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Dilbert Dilweg wrote:

Second Life Official viewer was here first. And the buttons and format was first.

Singularity and all other TPV seem to make the format and names different from the official viewer and use OLD outdated format. For which you got used to using. So your beef should be with third party viewers not sticking to the original formats.

This in turn makes it impossible for TPV users

to help new residents who come to SL because the buttons and format are not the same

Seems like it is all your fault here lol

---

My bolding above.  No it doesn't make it impossible, just difficult at times.

As far as these "old button names" are concerned, we do need to remember who renamed some of the buttons in the first place.  The company that designed the failure that was Viewer 2 perchance?  Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.  An interesting thought.

But you know, whenever I think about the topic, I always feel that the Viewer of Choice, the Viewer that the Majority of people use, should be the Official Viewer, with the TPV's catering to a niche market of specialty users.

But instead it is the other way around.  The primary niche Market for the Official Viewer is Newbies.  And that is mainly because when they register, they don't know there are other (better?) options.  And quite obviously, among the majority of those who stick around, they quickly find that using a TPV is a better option.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Here's an interesting thought for Rodvik on new user retention:

"You only get one chance at a first impression."

Could there be some low hanging fruit there?

---

Actually I believe that the Linden Lab viewer was already a minority viewer before Viewer 2 was released and one of the reasons for Viewer 2's redesign was how many people thought Viewer 1's interface was a hot mess - in other words, they realized "You only get one chance at a first impression." I started out on Viewer 2 in late 2010 and people tried to get me to switch to Phoenix back then. I took one look at it and said to myself, "What's up with this crap?!"

---

There wasn't a Phoenix when V2 was introduced.

[Theresa Tennyson]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

There wasn't a Phoenix when V2 was introduced.

---

No, it was called Emerald. And I started in late October of 2010 so Emerald had just been rebuilt as Phoenix.

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

Could there be some low hanging fruit there?

---

Hey... I resemble that remark. 

...Dres

[Perrie Juran]

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

There wasn't a Phoenix when V2 was introduced.

---

No, it was called Emerald. And I started in late October of 2010 so Emerald had just been rebuilt as Phoenix.

---

Ah, OK.

Then you would not have liked the original Official Viewer 1 either.  The UI's were very similar with Phoenix adding a bit more flexibility and some additional functionality.

Now, there is nothing wrong with being in a minority as far as Viewer Choice goes.  I've always held by the principle, "Your World, Your Choice of Viewers."  I will never criticize someone for being in a niche.

But here, my opinion is based more on the Majority.  And yes, I know it is my opinion.  "The Viewer of Choice" should be the Official Viewer.  It's not and that reflects poorly on LL.  The only thing that is saving them here is that they allow for Third Party Viewers. 

 

[Perrie Juran]

---

Dresden Ceriano wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

Could there be some low hanging fruit there?

---

Hey... I resemble that remark. 

...Dres

---

I was alluding to and quoting something Rodvik said.

It never dawned on me that he was following your Blog.

My humblest apologies.

[Marigold Devin]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

There wasn't a Phoenix when V2 was introduced.

---

No, it was called Emerald. And I started in late October of 2010 so Emerald had just been rebuilt as Phoenix.

---

Ah, OK.

Then you would not have liked the original Official Viewer 1 either.  The UI's were very similar with Phoenix adding a bit more flexibility and some additional functionality.

Now, there is nothing wrong with being in a minority as far as Viewer Choice goes.  I've always held by the principle, "Your World, Your Choice of Viewers."  I will never criticize someone for being in a niche.

But here, my opinion is based more on the Majority.  And yes, I know it is my opinion.  "The Viewer of Choice" should be the Official Viewer.  It's not and that reflects poorly on LL.  The only thing that is saving them here is that they allow for Third Party Viewers. 

 

---

And really, the only reason why they do allow third party viewers is so they can pick the brains of the viewers' developers to improve their own viewer. I doubt we would have had CHUI or Project Sunshine, or whatever else if it hadn't been for third party viewer developers. We'll never know for sure unless we're privileged enough to sleep with a Linden (and I don't think they've found a shot to make that safe enough to do yet).

[Theresa Tennyson]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

But here, my opinion is based more on the Majority.  And yes, I know it is my opinion.  "The Viewer of Choice" should be the Official Viewer.  It's not and that reflects poorly on LL.  The only thing that is saving them here is that they allow for Third Party Viewers. 

 

---

Why? Linden Lab isn't in the viewer business; they're in the server business. Actually the viewer is a net liability because they have to provide support. If they attempted to "gain market share" by adding features THEY'D need to explain to someone how to un-de-render their partner, and in fact they'd need to pay someone to do that. I use the analogy that the viewer is the equivalent of the free hangers a dry-cleaner gives you.

And anyway, the "Viewer of Choice" is currently Firestorm, which is 98% Viewer 3 as the Firestorm developers will point out themselves. And this way the Firestorm developers have to put up with the BAWWWW of the majority of users - I read their JIRA. Firestorm staffers also have the advantage of not being paid, which means they have the freedom to tell someone to pound sand if that's what that person really should do. I'm surprised they don't do it more often.

[Summer Tison]

I also use Singularity, mainly because it works far better on my Laptop than Firestorm, and it's adeqate for what I use SL for.

I remember when V2 was introduced, there was no way I was going to use it, I liked V1 and Snowglobe too much, then I started using Emerald, after that I think it was Imprudence, then Phoenix. The point I'm trying to make here is you can easily adapt to any viewer, you dress it up to suit your needs...it just takes a little time, but it's well worth it in the long run.

 

[Perrie Juran]

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

But here, my opinion is based more on the Majority.  And yes, I know it is my opinion.  "The Viewer of Choice" should be the Official Viewer.  It's not and that reflects poorly on LL.  The only thing that is saving them here is that they allow for Third Party Viewers. 

 

---

Why? Linden Lab isn't in the viewer business; they're in the server business. Actually the viewer is a net liability because they have to provide support. If they attempted to "gain market share" by adding features THEY'D need to explain to someone how to un-de-render their partner, and in fact they'd need to pay someone to do that. I use the analogy that the viewer is the equivalent of the free hangers a dry-cleaner gives you.

 

---

They are in the "Virtual Worlds" business. 

And have abdicated on their responsibility to make a truly viable viewer.

By abdicating on that responsibility they have left themselves dependent on the Whims and Fancies of the TPV's.

I would maintain that it has a negative impact.

Especially because despite the best efforts of the TPV's, there are limitations imposed upon the TPV's on what they can do to improve it because of some of the dumb arsed shortcomings and failures in the Official Viewer.  Maybe some of those things are limited by Server Side implementations.  But some of them are Viewer problems.  CHUI is the epitome of this.

 

[ImaTest1488314069]

---

Dilbert Dilweg wrote:

Second Life Official viewer was here first. And the buttons and format was first.

Singularity and all other TPV seem to make the format and names different from the official viewer and use OLD outdated format. For which you got used to using. So your beef should be with third party viewers not sticking to the original formats.

This in turn makes it impossible for TPV users to help new residents who come to SL because the buttons and format are not the same

Seems like it is all your fault here lol

---

Where the hell have you been? The OLD format you're spouting off about is the format the official viewer originally used. It wasn't magically created by the TPV developers. It's based off 1.23 viewer-which was the...gasp...official viewer. So the lab DID create the format. That makes this OLD format, ie the current format some TPVs allow, to be the "first" format. There is nothing outdated about it, I'm not even sure why you'd think that to begin with.

They have since changed of course, as have the TPV, although some still offer the older and much preferred(by both old and new avs) layout. It's not actually true that the formats are entirely different, either. Some TPVs have formats similar to, if not identical to, the current official viewer. You'd have to actually use them all to know this though, which you clearly do not.

The official viewers have been the least used viewers since 2009, only going down further and further, never going up. If that doesn't tell you people prefer the other formats, layouts and viewers, I'm not sure what will.

[Theresa Tennyson]

---

ImaTest wrote:

---

Dilbert Dilweg wrote:

Second Life Official viewer was here first. And the buttons and format was first.

Singularity and all other TPV seem to make the format and names different from the official viewer and use OLD outdated format. For which you got used to using. So your beef should be with third party viewers not sticking to the original formats.

This in turn makes it impossible for TPV users to help new residents who come to SL because the buttons and format are not the same

Seems like it is all your fault here lol

---

Where the hell have you been? The OLD format you're spouting off about is the format the official viewer originally used. It wasn't magically created by the TPV developers. It's based off 1.23 viewer-which was the...gasp...official viewer. So the lab DID create the format. That makes this OLD format, ie the current format some TPVs allow, to be the "first" format. There is nothing outdated about it, I'm not even sure why you'd think that to begin with.

They have since changed of course, as have the TPV, although some still offer the older and much preferred

(by both old and new avs) layout.

It's not actually true that the formats are entirely different, either. Some TPVs have formats similar to, if not identical to, the current official viewer. You'd have to actually use them all to know this though, which you clearly do not.

The official viewers have been the least used viewers since 2009, only going down further and further, never going up. If that doesn't tell you people prefer the other formats, layouts and viewers, I'm not sure what will.

---

 

I'd be delighted to see your evidence to back this statement up. The most popular viewer currently in use by far is Firestorm, which uses the Viewer 3.2 interface system but can be set up to resemble 1.23 in some ways. Attached is a link to a chart to show viewer use as of Summer 2013.

http://modemworld.wordpress.com/2013/07/27/sl-projects-update-week-30-2-upcoming-server-viewer-releases-ssa-http/

[Melita Magic]

---

Sam16 Clarity wrote:

Singularity has a tools format that  Iove and I am not liking the new viewer tools format. How about making both types of formats for those of us who dont want to have to switch and relearn.  We just wanna play the game not have to relearn the tools over and over again. 

I undertstand that you are trying to help by having better tool formats but maybe you can just improve on the format at hand and still have it look the same.  Its harder to keep playing on a game you get frustrated with. Also the prices of things in SL are ridiculously high and Im sure you will find lots that are willing to keep paying for land that is low in prims but high in price but some of us are downsizing and a lot of us are starting to not want land because its just to dang expensive and too low of prims to deal with when you want nice things.  With todays economy you are going to lose out no matter how much nicer the look of something is, or how well it rezzes... people want to have a nice place to play and not have to go broke doing it.  They would rather play the free Sims and many of my friends are already going over there.

 

---

I had not even seen this topic but it will be interesting to see the responses you received.

Interesting, isn't it; but will the Lab listen?

 

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

But here, my opinion is based more on the Majority.  And yes, I know it is my opinion.  "The Viewer of Choice" should be the Official Viewer.  It's not and that reflects poorly on LL.  The only thing that is saving them here is that they allow for Third Party Viewers. 

 

---

Why? Linden Lab isn't in the viewer business; they're in the server business. Actually the viewer is a net liability because they have to provide support. If they attempted to "gain market share" by adding features THEY'D need to explain to someone how to un-de-render their partner, and in fact they'd need to pay someone to do that. I use the analogy that the viewer is the equivalent of the free hangers a dry-cleaner gives you.

And anyway, the "Viewer of Choice" is currently Firestorm, which is 98% Viewer 3 as the Firestorm developers will point out themselves. And this way the Firestorm developers have to put up with the BAWWWW of the majority of users -

I read their JIRA. Firestorm staffers also have the advantage of not being paid, which means they have the freedom to tell someone to pound sand if that's what that person really should do. I'm surprised they don't do it more often.

---

i remember when a couple of them were in tears because they thought they were going to lose everyone that was using their old viewer..

from what they said they do it because they love to..

why would they be telling people to pound sand after such an effort to get people back?

they got prettyhumbled back then..i sure hope they haven;t forgotten that feeling..

that would be a shame..