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Ok i won't post any name, but only post what happens and i hope to receive advices to nail this unfair merchant.

 

Well a friend of mine once couldn't use a product bought from marketplace because as it was rezzed or weared it said in local chat: problem please contact staff
Since this friend wasn't used to contact creators (this is what i have been told) i sent a polite and nice notecard explaining the situation and i found out i was in the middle of a war between this creator and this customer.. 

What happening: this creator can forbid you to use, rez or wear his/her creation even if you bought it on marketplace!

i told in my opinion this is wrong, you can ban people from your store but if they buy from marketplace and pay for something they have the holy right to use it!!!

well to express this opinion i made the same end.

i tried good manners ask a common friend with this creator to keep me out from that list and what we got back was : 

 

"if she knows my products won't work for her don't make her buy it"

this all was 3 months ago but i decided to make this creator pay for this (yes i got freetime) 

So now.. any suggestion? 

Thanks in advance

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Flo Memo wrote:

 

this all was 3 months ago but i decided to make this creator pay for this (yes i got freetime) 

So now.. any suggestion? 

Thanks in advance

Yeah, don't act like a tool. Don't exact revenge. Don't get involved in problems that will only escalate whatever issues your "friend" was or is, having. Advise your friend that not all merchants behave the same and like anything else, this too shall pass.

Three months ago, I think you can let it be. Regardless as to whether or not I agree with a merchant's tactics or policies, one thing I don't agree with is the whole "you hurt my friend, now you're going to pay" crap. It sucks when bad crap happens, but it's not the end of the world. I think you'll only make things worse. It's clear from your wanting to make this person pay, that's your goal though. I don't think you'll find much advise on how best to do that here, in a merchant forum.

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So you think it's correct selling something in marketplace that doesn't work, take the money and forbid people to use it? 

i am a merchant too and i think everyone of us is customer too here.

but what this person does is STEAL not SELL

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He didnt force your friend to buy it. Like the merchant said,why did your friend even buy something from him when he/she was on the blacklist? And hes the creator and he have all the rights to do whatever he wants with hes stuff. Next time just dont buy anything from him and thats it.

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i don't think this is fair, pay your linden buying something from marketplace should grant you the use of that product, if you want to have a blacklist you can have it in your land store or inworld but not on marketplace.....

I think i'll find out the truth only filling a report or whatelse is needed...

 

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Flo Memo wrote:

i don't think this is fair, pay your linden buying something from marketplace should grant you the use of that product,

 

Nope.

When purchasing a product in Second Life, you buy a licence to use the product, not the product itself. This licence can be revoked if it's determined or decided that the buyer is breaking the terms of the licence, the seller can revoke this licence no-harm-no-foul.

Your friend presumably knew there was an issue between themselves and the creator of this product, and bought the item anyway. It's common for people to troll creators in this way (and then they demand a refund like they're surprised it happened, lol). There is no way to prevent specific users from buying your products on the Marketplace, those who buy products they shouldn't be using can expect to have the licence revoked pretty quickly. This revocation of licence after purchase is the only way that SL supports blacklisting via Marketplace purchases - it is not the merchants fault that your friend wasted their money.

If you're going to AR it, go ahead already and stop asking for peoples' opinions. That way the issue will be left to LL's judgement and you won't have to listen to our skepticism. Note that reporting this event yourself won't do any good, your friend will have to do it.

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Flo Memo wrote:

i don't think this is fair, pay your linden buying something from marketplace should grant you the use of that product, if you want to have a blacklist you can have it in your land store or inworld but not on marketplace.....

I think i'll find out the truth only filling a report or whatelse is needed...

 

 

Your friend knowingly brought you into their drama with the merchant.  They knew they were blacklisted and that is why they didn't contact the owner themselves.   They lied to you. Some 'friend'.

There are two sides to every story and because your friend lied to you I doubt you know the whole story of what happened.  We certainly don't,  so I wouldn't expect any assistance from merchants on this forum in seeking petty revenge.

Children act this way and whine 'it isn't fair'.  Life isn't fair, get over it.  My advice is to grow up and let it be.  There is nothing you can do about it that won't get you in trouble or escalate the drama.   Adults realize it isn't worth it over a bunch of pixels and a few L's, especially after three months!

File all the 'reports' you want,  LL will do nothing.  Not only is the general policy in the TOS "buyer beware" but they would consider this a dispute between residents and will not get involved with it. Buying from the MP is no different than buying in world other than you can leave a review. LL offers you no guarantees.

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Flo Memo wrote:

So you think it's correct selling something in marketplace that doesn't work, take the money and forbid people to use it? 

i am a merchant too and i think everyone of us is customer too here.

but what this person does is STEAL not SELL

You apparently cannot read either. I did not say I thought it was correct, at all.

Do you think behaving as badly as this merchant is going to solve anything?

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Flo Memo wrote:

i don't think this is fair, pay your linden buying something from marketplace should grant you the use of that product, if you want to have a blacklist you can have it in your land store or inworld but not on marketplace.....

I think i'll find out the truth only filling a report or whatelse is needed...

 

You can't file a report. It didn't happen to you. No it may not be fair, but in your own words you said you wanted to make the person pay because you have nothing better to do.

In what universe do two wrongs make a right?

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ImaTest wrote:

In what universe do two wrongs make a right?


SL spoiler.png

Merchant can do as they wish, as stated, you buy the license to use the object

If the object is bought trough the marketplace to circumvent an inworld ban, that`s being stupid and your friend should have known it from the start as by your story he/she knew

If i had a customer bad mouthing me while trying to solve their problem and insist in being an arse, i would have done this aswell as make a blacklist on my website with a public service ban for every one to see along with the reason why

Circumvent that... :P

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Alicia Sautereau wrote:


ImaTest wrote:

In what universe do two wrongs make a right?


SL 
spoiler.png

Merchant can do as they wish, as stated, you buy the license to use the object

If the object is bought trough the marketplace to circumvent an inworld ban, that`s being stupid and your friend should have known it from the start as by your story he/she knew

If i had a customer bad mouthing me while trying to solve their problem and insist in being an arse, i would have done this aswell as make a blacklist on my website with a public service ban for every one to see along with the reason why

Circumvent that...
:P

That would be sorta a petty thing to do. Just because you don't get along with the person doesn't nessicarily make them bad and publicly shaming someone is immature at best. Technically so is blocking them from using a product they bought even if you don't like them. While starting **bleep** or "defending" the friend is equally immature these tactics aren't really nessicary. If you don't like someone just let it goooo people. Don't talk to each other don't publicly shame each other on a webpage. It's one thing to tell ally our buddies about the person through chat and so on but posting there name in forums an on webpages is just terrible.

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Madeline Blackbart wrote:


Alicia Sautereau wrote:


ImaTest wrote:

In what universe do two wrongs make a right?


SL 
spoiler.png

Merchant can do as they wish, as stated, you buy the license to use the object

If the object is bought trough the marketplace to circumvent an inworld ban, that`s being stupid and your friend should have known it from the start as by your story he/she knew

If i had a customer bad mouthing me while trying to solve their problem and insist in being an arse, i would have done this aswell as make a blacklist on my website with a public service ban for every one to see along with the reason why

Circumvent that...
:P

That would be sorta a petty thing to do. Just because you don't get along with the person doesn't nessicarily make them bad and publicly shaming someone is immature at best. Technically so is blocking them from using a product they bought even if you don't like them. While starting **bleep** or "defending" the friend is equally immature these tactics aren't really nessicary. If you don't like someone just let it goooo people. Don't talk to each other don't publicly shame each other on a webpage. It's one thing to tell ally our buddies about the person through chat and so on but posting there name in forums an on webpages is just terrible.

Some deserve it as they call you names and accuse you of scamming for hours and to prevent more abuse from their friends as she is such a "sweetheart" they go at it aswell and claim to be saints

Public blacklist solves the entire problem in the rare occasion that some one actually deserves a ban

On the otherhand, if the person bought it from a place you can not deny them from purchasing it, the money should be refunded

If bought by some one else as a gift, it should be refunded aswell after given proof it was gifted (does the marketplace even distinguish that?)

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If you purchase something in world or on the MP,

and the merchant will not let you use the product you paid for,

and does not refund the money you paid,

that is fraud,

and LL will listen to that.

Its the resident to resident disputes they will not get involved with, but fraud is another subject completely. And after some time, how do you know your blacklisted, is there a place to look and see, or do you just need to remember, not likely everyone will remember, to many merchants.

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

If you purchase something in world or on the MP,

and the merchant will not let you use the product you paid for,

and does not refund the money you paid,

that is fraud,

and LL will listen to that.

Its the resident to resident disputes they will not get involved with, but fraud is another subject completely. And after some time, how do you know your blacklisted, is there a place to look and see, or do you just need to remember, not likely everyone will remember, to many merchants.

Actually they won't.  I know from experience. 

A well know seller of popular vendors removed my partner from being able to use his networked vendors because he discovered a bug and reported it.  One day the lucky chair that came with the vendors gave prizes every few minutes to one woman that was in my partner's shop, including prizes that it was not supposed to give out.  The woman got away with about 5K in merchandise for free.  My partner reported it as a possible hack or malfunction.  The creator swore my partner kept rezzing out a new chair and there was nothing wrong with his product.  My partner was off line at the time,  so he insisted it wasn't him.  I know for a fact that this is the case as I was on the sim that day and saw it all go down.  They creator got mad and banned my partner from the web server meaning not only was his whole vending system now useless to him, but to this day he can't buy anything from other merchants who use that vending system.  Ironically about two weeks later that creator sent out a new lucky chair that 'fixed some bugs" but never unbanned my partner.  This was reported to LL and they did nothing about it. 

This is one of many examples I can name.

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That is just stupid...
Banning as a service, ok, but banning so you can`t use it as a consumer is just retarded, as a business you also have to have *some* morals
If it`s a griefer or something alike, switch both options on or if some one really went to far

I`d be thankfull and with help finding the cause, give something back

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


Teagan Tobias wrote:

If you purchase something in world or on the MP,

and the merchant will not let you use the product you paid for,

and does not refund the money you paid,

that is fraud,

and LL will listen to that.

Its the resident to resident disputes they will not get involved with, but fraud is another subject completely. And after some time, how do you know your blacklisted, is there a place to look and see, or do you just need to remember, not likely everyone will remember, to many merchants.

Actually they won't.  I know from experience. 

A well know seller of popular vendors removed my partner from being able to use his networked vendors because he discovered a bug and reported it.  One day the lucky chair that came with the vendors gave prizes every few minutes to one woman that was in my partner's shop, including prizes that it was not supposed to give out.  The woman got away with about 5K in merchandise for free.  My partner reported it as a possible hack or malfunction.  The creator swore my partner kept rezzing out a new chair and there was nothing wrong with his product.  My partner was off line at the time,  so he insisted it wasn't him.  I know for a fact that this is the case as I was on the sim that day and saw it all go down.  They creator got mad and banned my partner from the web server meaning not only was his whole vending system now useless to him, but to this day he can't buy anything from other merchants who use that vending system.  Ironically about two weeks later that creator sent out a new lucky chair that 'fixed some bugs" but never unbanned my partner.  This was reported to LL and they did nothing about it. 

This is one of many examples I can name.

The vending system was purchased and used, a dispute erupted, your partner was stopped for using it any further.

That is not the same as purchasing something and never being able to use it, as I see it any how.

What you describe is a resident to resident dispute, not the same as purchasing something and never being about to use. But like I said, that is how I see it.

Now very very obviously the person selling the vendor system is in the wrong, but like so many other thing in SL, that does not matter.

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I agree with the one who says LL needs to make a better license thingy, BUT this type of thing may not cover it.


Blacklists are a bit odd, but if notified you are on it and they are very clear about it I am not sure LL should have to put some work into making a thingy that checks if you are one of whatever blecklists that are out there, which means maybe the best thing is to to do two things.

1. Make a license pop thingy and change the button people click for sale to something like "I agree, and purchase now" with a checkbox that says you have read the terms or license or whatever.

2. Just don't allow black list stuff, especially if they don't tell you it has a black list script in it.

Or an alternative to 2. is to offer merchants a blacklist feature they can fill in names. They can then block some people that have greifed them, almost like the mute system but for sales. Even maybe use the mute system modifed in world to do the same, if they are blacklisted then no purchase. In fact, for custom work a sell only to x,y, and z people may work out good. This way you can do competitions, custom one off or customized work, and maybe even some LSL to offer more competition options which lead to products for gadget/script and vendor companies? Maybe a bad idea from an engineerign stand point and who needs MORE code in the SL veiwer, right?

Solves issues other than just a caveat with no details.

Strange stuff, not sure it is worth the hastle myself an I might even choose not to buy if I saw a pop up with licenses and all that. It depends though, for business stuff and full perms I guess it makes very much sense! It is nice to know what terms there are and everything BEFORE you buy.

Blacklists? Tough issue, sad stuff all around because it may be the only way to make a stand for some, and the wierd thing is the market is so huge there seems to be two of everything, at least, and always something else to buy instead. Some items obviously are works of genius, and that is where it might hurt, right. Strange stuff though.

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


Flo Memo wrote:

i don't think this is fair, pay your linden buying something from marketplace should grant you the use of that product, if you want to have a blacklist you can have it in your land store or inworld but not on marketplace.....

I think i'll find out the truth only filling a report or whatelse is needed...

 

 

Your friend knowingly brought you into their drama with the merchant.  They knew they were blacklisted and that is why they didn't contact the owner themselves.   They lied to you. Some 'friend'.

There are two sides to every story and because your friend lied to you I doubt you know the whole story of what happened.  We certainly don't,  so I wouldn't expect any assistance from merchants on this forum in seeking petty revenge.

Children act this way and whine 'it isn't fair'.  Life isn't fair, get over it.  My advice is to grow up and let it be.  There is nothing you can do about it that won't get you in trouble or escalate the drama.   Adults realize it isn't worth it over a bunch of pixels and a few L's, especially after three months!

File all the 'reports' you want,  LL will do nothing.  Not only is the general policy in the TOS "buyer beware" but they would consider this a dispute between residents and will not get involved with it. Buying from the MP is no different than buying in world other than you can leave a review. LL offers you no guarantees.


Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


Flo Memo wrote:

i don't think this is fair, pay your linden buying something from marketplace should grant you the use of that product, if you want to have a blacklist you can have it in your land store or inworld but not on marketplace.....

I think i'll find out the truth only filling a report or whatelse is needed...

 

 

Your friend knowingly brought you into their drama with the merchant.  They knew they were blacklisted and that is why they didn't contact the owner themselves.   They lied to you. Some 'friend'.

There are two sides to every story and because your friend lied to you I doubt you know the whole story of what happened.  We certainly don't,  so I wouldn't expect any assistance from merchants on this forum in seeking petty revenge.

Children act this way and whine 'it isn't fair'.  Life isn't fair, get over it.  My advice is to grow up and let it be.  There is nothing you can do about it that won't get you in trouble or escalate the drama.   Adults realize it isn't worth it over a bunch of pixels and a few L's, especially after three months!

File all the 'reports' you want,  LL will do nothing.  Not only is the general policy in the TOS "buyer beware" but they would consider this a dispute between residents and will not get involved with it. Buying from the MP is no different than buying in world other than you can leave a review. LL offers you no guarantees.

You see how the 'revenge' equals the 'only a few lindens and pixels" argument? If someone works for some time, even just 20 minutes (not all make $7 an hour plus, and SL is cheap entertainment if you build, share stuff you build with others or sell things to buy things especially) you really do get into a issue where if you trash their PC, mess up thier SL life for a while or whatever you are equaling the same give a hoot. It cuts both directions, you say the same about the time of the person who is receiving the revenge IF equal revenge.

 

 

To the OP: I may not think you should bother with revenge, but an easy and cretive solution is that has equal revenge is to simply put the other on a black list, get them to block them and make a device that kicks, blocks, boots and so on ONLY the ones you find using blacklisting while making all others allowed to buy.

Not only that, a long and silly revenge could be making your own of what you want (I assume that is why your friend purchased it, because they want it) and then going about selling to anyone. Hey, even if you sell it to people who are hating you and it is scripted simlarly they might waste thier time ripping through it to see if they can find stolen code or mesh, which means you wasted thier time. Just make the stuff legit, then they actually not only have wasted thier time hunting you down BUT they may also now see they are creating competition. Which is fine to some, others may shrug but if they waste thier time then you wasted theirs IF they do go digging for evidence BUT they enjoy that! LOL. So, you could argue they made you create stuff and that wastes YOUR time!

Seriously, I am not sure what all this is to be.

You could jsut shrug and say 'revenge is the lords' and carry on. there are way way more important things going on in the world, but each part may hurt and this may hurt enough for you to want to put energy into it. I can't think of a better way to expend that energy than to be creative and either the solution of blacklist the blackllisters OR create what you need and then sell it to others with no blacklist (hey, maybe both if you are really wishing to keep busy) would be fitting revenge. Just remember it takes time to make stuff (which is why some are so hurt by some peoples actions and blacklist them?) and actually can be fun though, and you have identified a need. There are people, for whatever reason, that are blacklisted and you may be able to make a group and show off stores and chat about creators who don't do this type of thing. Maybe even blacklisters will join and waste thier time listening to you lol.

Yes, we can all waste each others time all day and I can waste my time telling a story or getting deeper into the issue of licenses and LL's marketplace...ah, no, I have to go do other stuff and work and stuff. so, farewell and I will end now at only a few hundred, instead of a few thousand words!

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I'm not sure how a creator can make a product someone buys not work for that specific person unless it is one of those scripts that work hand in hand with an outside webpage like some of the gift cards and redelivery systems do for example.

 

It's not like the script says "get permission from creator before letting this person use it" The script could say something where it needs to communicate with the creators database or something in order to function, and if the person is blocked the database wont work of course. In this case we have to wonder why the person is blocked in the first place. The reason must be a doozy.

I don't have information on what type of product it is from this post and don't want a name etc that is against the rules. since we are flying blind on what the product could be these are some simple possibilities that could be why its not working that isn't the sellers fault at all if any of these are the case.

Some cases of these would be products that the person would need adult rating to even view them on marketplace unless somehow someone else purchased it as a gift then the non age verified person attempted to use the item that had age verified specific scripting. I'm not a scripter so like i said.. I'm not even sure how a person can make their product not work for a specific avi (other than the possibility of an age verification script of some sort).

I do notice that many market adds will specify if a product needs the RLV to be enabled in order to work. Even if it doesn't say it wont work without RLV if the product says RLV in its name, description or write up it is understood that RLV needs to be turned on in world in order for the product to function.

(insert personal opinion/suggestion for LL consideration for future restrictions: Most RLV games toys attachments furniture etc has in some way adult purposes even if it is a cat bed that sleeps curling up.. the intention of them being that "pet" is adult. RLV should only be able to be enabled by people who have the adult verification complete and turned on . Also items found only on the Adult rated market pages should not be able to be sent to anyone without the adult verification complete and enabled. The purchase when we type the recipient of the gifts name should fail stating lack of age verification)

If the product your friend has the problem with is only supposed to be used by someone with age verification or RLV enabled or both, then your friend should get the verification if they are of age for that. If they are not of age to get verified  whoever sent it to your friend  could get in some serious trouble for providing the items. If it is that they don't have RLV turned on that is their choice and not the seller of the products problem if that is why it wont work (that is of course as long as the information of the product had RLV stated somewhere, anywhere in it).

 

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Flo Memo wrote:

What happening: this creator can forbid you to use, rez or wear his/her creation even if you bought it on marketplace!

i told in my opinion this is wrong, you can ban people from your store but if they buy from marketplace and pay for something they have the holy right to use it!!!

 

One of the common requests from merchants is for an ability to be able to block sales to specific avatars on Marketplace, just like they probably can with inworld vending systems.  Actually, it's pretty pointless because buying with an alt is downright nigh on impossible to prevent if someone really wants to be a pest.

Having said that, along with your example, we too have the ability to disable our products from use.  We do this as we sell copy/no trans items thus it allows us to refund people where it's required in a fair and equitable manner for both parties.  We refund and can disable the item.

In over 4 years, we have prohibited a grand total of five people and in each case they have been contacted, the reason explained and refunded.  I fully support the ability of a merchant to control the use of their product but no customer should be in fear of being out of pocket for the whims of a dysfunctional merchant.  In my view, it is morally wrong to take money whether someone knows they're going to be denied from using it or not.

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Ok What Happened::

 

 

Here is the LL Answer 

 

Thank you for contacting us at Linden Lab Support. I'm sorry to hear of your marketplace issues. What you can do with an object generally depends on the object permissions its creator set. More details on this can be found here:  http://community.secondlife.com/t5/English-Knowledge-Base/Object-permissions/ta-p/700129

In the event an item is delivered and it is not what you are expecting, any form of refund must come from the seller at their discretion as Linden Lab does not get involved in business disputes between Residents. More details on this can be found here: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/English-Knowledge-Base/Transactions-and-disputes-between-Residents/ta-p/799395

If you have any other questions regarding this please don't hesitate to reply. For all other unrelated issues you may send in a new case.

 

What i did was organize a meeting with this merchant explain the situation and she unbanned my friend, so now everything works!

 

Thnks to everyone!!!!!!!

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After a lot of words spoken AT each other but very few if any spoken WITH each other, the solution seems to have been found when both people actually involved sat down and talked together.

It wasn't you Flo that fixed it.
It wasn't Linden Lab that fixed it.
It wasn't anyone in the Merchant Forum that fixed it.

It was the Merchant and the Customer that talked WITH each other using mature, calm and reasonable words.

So the real solution would be?

(... just askin' ...)

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