Please Provide Changelog for TOS Updates

[Ashtyn Ninetails]

The short version:

   Please LL, provide us with an easy-to-access changelog of what gets modified in the Terms of Service whenever you guys change something in it!





   I'm posting this request here in hopes that a Linden might actually see it and put it into their 'suggestions box', because I was told by the LiveChat that no such changelogs exist, and that I should put in a request in the JIRA, but not only there is such request there already, but it's been closed, said that's not the place for it, and the JIRA doesn't seem to allow me to request new features or re-open issues these days!

  The original JIRA issue requesting this feature was posted at https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-657

[Kenbro Utu]

Not holding my breath.  That JIRA was started in 2007.  Status is "Closed."  

 

BTW, the last entry is:

"Alexa Linden added a comment - 27/May/10 12:54 PM

Policy issues are not handled through Pjira."  

 

So you were given false information about creating a JIRA for the request.  

 

Edit:  I see you stated such, I just skimmed... Sounds like the perfect run-around, every one tells you to make the request somewhere else, but everywhere you try you get the same reply...

[Pie Serendipity]

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Kenbro Utu wrote:

Not holding my breath.  That JIRA was started in 2007.  Status is "Closed."  

 

BTW, the last entry is:

"

Alexa Linden

 added a comment - 

27/May/10 12:54 PM

Policy issues are not handled."  

 

---

FIFY!

[Erik Verity]

I'm not so sure that was false information. What was requested in one sense really was a feature request. The final response in that jira would have been correct if it had simply refused the request whether the reason was because of an internal company policy or not - nobody asked for LL to change their policy there; I doubt anyone but LL employees are/were even aware of any such policy.

I can see three different scenerios for TOS changes: 1) preceding a new TOS with at least an abbreviated description of its change from a previous; 2) providing a new TOS without describing changes separately (without any apparent reason); and 3) providing a new TOS while any brief description of changes are not supplied by reason of a company's policy.

Number three sounds a lot to me like any lawyer with minimal experience could prove a blatant attempt to defraud masses of users under many circumstances, especially when the agreement is thousands of words long. Not only is it time for some reasonable legislation to limit lengths, legalese, and immediacy of changes taking effect for standard terms to be agreed upon by average users who cannot be expected to have advanced legal training, it is time to see if some methods in use already might be illegal under present laws.

It says a lot when the extra steps have been taken to make sure that disclosures of changes in terms are not readily available.

 ETA: Ok, looking at this TOS, I can see where there is enough of a difference to require a complete reading, and maybe that should have been pointed out. I still see a problem with any policy forbidding any way of describing a small change to a large TOS as that jira suggests.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Sorry to say your request is not going anywhere due to a new provision in the TOS:

 

7.4    Unsolicited Ideas and Materials Prohibited; No Confidential or Special Relationship with Linden Lab.

Linden Lab employs a staff of designers to develop new ideas and Linden Lab solicits and receives product idea submissions from professional inventors with whom it has business relationships.

Because of this, in your communications with Linden Lab, please keep in mind that Linden Lab does not accept or consider any unsolicited ideas or materials for products or services, or even improvements to products or services, (collectively, “Unsolicited Ideas and Materials”). Therefore, you must not send to Linden Lab (even within any of your User Content that we may request), in any form and by any means, any Unsolicited Ideas and Materials. Any Unsolicited Ideas and Materials you post on or send to us via the Service are deemed User Content and licensed to us as set forth above.

Except as otherwise specifically described in the Service’s Privacy Statement or any Additional Terms, your relationship with Linden Lab is not a confidential, fiduciary, or other type of special relationship and your Unsolicited Ideas and Materials, and anything else submitted by you will be treated as non-confidential and non-proprietary User Content – regardless of whether you mark them “confidential”, “proprietary”, or the like. Linden Lab will not assume any responsibility, obligation, or liability for the receipt or non-receipt of any of the foregoing. Therefore, your decision to submit any Unsolicited Ideas and Materials to Linden Lab  does not place Linden Lab  in a position that is any different from the position held by members of the general public with regard to your Unsolicited Ideas and Materials.

Linden Lab’s receipt of your Unsolicited Ideas and Materials is not an admission by Linden Lab of their novelty, priority, or originality, and it does not impair Linden Lab’s right to contest existing or future intellectual property rights relating to your Unsolicited Ideas and Materials.

[Erik Verity]

I don't see where a feature request in the jira can be defined as an unsolicited idea or material for products or services. The jira actually has a "feature request" subject heading for entry classification - this suggests both 1) There is a distinction between these definitions, and 2) a feature request, as one of the subject options for posting a user submitted jira, is to an extent solicited.

I'm not even sure if asking for a changelog is necessarily either; it may be simply a request to communicate responsibly.

[Innula Zenovka]

It's not a change log, but Seanabradey has done a diff between the new ToS and an old copy at https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6mHCCD8CPyoZkJkYmstMFBsd0U/

[Perrie Juran]

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

Sorry to say your request is not going anywhere due to a new provision in the TOS:

 

7.4    Unsolicited Ideas and Materials Prohibited; No Confidential or Special Relationship with Linden Lab.

Linden Lab employs a staff of designers to develop new ideas and Linden Lab solicits and receives product idea submissions from professional inventors with whom it has business relationships.

 

Because of this, in your communications with Linden Lab, please keep in mind that Linden Lab does not accept or consider any unsolicited ideas or materials for products or services, or even improvements to products or services, (collectively, “Unsolicited Ideas and Materials”). Therefore, you must not send to Linden Lab (even within any of your User Content that we may request), in any form and by any means, any Unsolicited Ideas and Materials. Any Unsolicited Ideas and Materials you post on or send to us via the Service are deemed User Content and licensed to us as set forth above.

 

Except as otherwise specifically described in the Service’s Privacy Statement or any Additional Terms, your relationship with Linden Lab is not a confidential, fiduciary, or other type of special relationship and your Unsolicited Ideas and Materials, and anything else submitted by you will be treated as non-confidential and non-proprietary User Content – regardless of whether you mark them “confidential”, “proprietary”, or the like. Linden Lab will not assume any responsibility, obligation, or liability for the receipt or non-receipt of any of the foregoing. Therefore, your decision to submit any Unsolicited Ideas and Materials to Linden Lab  does not place Linden Lab  in a position that is any different from the position held by members of the general public with regard to your Unsolicited Ideas and Materials.

Linden Lab’s receipt of your Unsolicited Ideas and Materials is not an admission by Linden Lab of their novelty, priority, or originality, and it does not impair Linden Lab’s right to contest existing or future intellectual property rights relating to your Unsolicited Ideas and Materials.

---

This is just one giant clusterf*ck.

We do know that a lot of suggestions are probably garbage and having to sort through that can be nuts.

But the way that this is written is also nuts.

Let's say the solution to a long standing problem dawns on me.

I realise (or figure out) how to fix the problems with SIM crossings.

The way this reads it is like saying they don't even want to know that I have the solution, much less sending it to them.

That is just nuts.

In addition, how does this apply to the TPV developers.  There are many times that they are the ones who have come up with the fixes to Viewer problems.  Does LL not want their help either?

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

[Erik Verity]

You both read into that something that isn't there. Their choice of wording might not have been the best, but I see it as:

They might have a sim crossing fix almost complete when you suggest an identical solution. Why should they owe you anything for it?  And . . . No soliciting, salespersons of any type or telemarketers, please.

Specific sentences you both quoted there:

Linden Lab employs a staff of designers to develop new ideas and Linden Lab solicits and receives product idea submissions from professional inventors with whom it has business relationships.

Any Unsolicited Ideas and Materials you post on or send to us via the Service are deemed User Content and licensed to us as set forth above.

. . . your Unsolicited Ideas and Materials, and anything else submitted by you will be treated as non-confidential and non-proprietary User Content – regardless of whether you mark them “confidential”, “proprietary”, or the like.

Linden Lab’s receipt of your Unsolicited Ideas and Materials is not an admission by Linden Lab of their novelty, priority, or originality, and it does not impair Linden Lab’s right to contest existing or future intellectual property rights relating to your Unsolicited Ideas and Materials.

[Innula Zenovka]

No, I think it means if you send them an idea, unsolicited, don't even think about claiming any royalties, payments or anything else if, at some point in the future, they use what appears to be your idea or something based on it.

It's not uncommon, I am told.

[Perrie Juran]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

No, I think it means if you send them an idea, unsolicited, don't even think about claiming any royalties, payments or anything else if, at some point in the future, they use what appears to be your idea or something based on it.

It's not uncommon, I am told.

---

Actually I do get that point.

But this, "Therefore, you must not send to Linden Lab (even within any of your User Content that we may request), in any form and by any means, any Unsolicited Ideas and Materials," as it sits in context or out of context says don't send us your ideas.

I guess that wouldn't prohibit me from telling them that I know how to, just from telling the how to.

[Innula Zenovka]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

No, I think it means if you send them an idea, unsolicited, don't even think about claiming any royalties, payments or anything else if, at some point in the future, they use what appears to be your idea or something based on it.

It's not uncommon, I am told.

---

Actually I do get that point.

But this, "Therefore, you must not send to Linden Lab (even within any of your User Content that we may request), in any form and by any means, any Unsolicited Ideas and Materials," as it sits in context or out of context says don't send us your ideas.

I guess that wouldn't prohibit me from telling them that I know how to, just from telling the how to.

---

I am not familiar with American legalese, but I think that's a way of saying something to the effect that, "There's no earthly way we're going to consider anything you send us to be 'Unsolicited Ideas and Materals' [which I strongly suspect is, in this context, a term of art], as opposed to User Content you are licencing to us, so don't try claiming later than you reasonably believed we might"..

[Perrie Juran]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

No, I think it means if you send them an idea, unsolicited, don't even think about claiming any royalties, payments or anything else if, at some point in the future, they use what appears to be your idea or something based on it.

It's not uncommon, I am told.

---

Actually I do get that point.

But this, "Therefore, you must not send to Linden Lab (even within any of your User Content that we may request), in any form and by any means, any Unsolicited Ideas and Materials," as it sits in context or out of context says don't send us your ideas.

I guess that wouldn't prohibit me from telling them that I know how to, just from telling the how to.

---

I am not familiar with American legalese, but I think that's a way of saying something to the effect that, "There's no earthly way we're going to consider anything you send us to be 'Unsolicited Ideas and Materals' [which I strongly suspect is, in this context, a term of art], as opposed to User Content you are licencing to us, so don't try claiming later than you reasonably believed we might"..

---

I'm just having a bit of fun with this but yes this TOS is making me slightly dizzy.

Personally I am not going to get in a tizzy about any of it.

I may not like it but my take on the Internet has always been two things:

There is no privacy on the internet

and

All your base are belongs to us.

[Dillon Levenque]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

I'm just having a bit of fun with this but yes this TOS is making me slightly dizzy.

Personally I am not going to get in a tizzy about any of it.

I may not like it but my take on the Internet has always been two things:

There is no privacy on the internet

and

All your base are belongs to us.

---

 

 You know—since it is Friday—you could have taken just a bit more time with that. With both 'tizzy' and 'dizzy' it seems to me there ought to be a limerick in there somewhere....

[Perrie Juran]

---

Dillon Levenque wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

I'm just having a bit of fun with this but yes this TOS is making me slightly dizzy.

Personally I am not going to get in a tizzy about any of it.

I may not like it but my take on the Internet has always been two things:

There is no privacy on the internet

and

All your base are belongs to us.

---

 

 You know—since it

is

Friday—you could have taken just a bit more time with that. With both 'tizzy' and 'dizzy' it seems to me there ought to be a limerick in there somewhere....

---

After reading all that mumbo jumbo my brain was feeling frizzie.

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Dillon Levenque wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

I'm just having a bit of fun with this but yes this TOS is making me slightly dizzy.

Personally I am not going to get in a tizzy about any of it.

I may not like it but my take on the Internet has always been two things:

There is no privacy on the internet

and

All your base are belongs to us.

---

 

 You know—since it

is

Friday—you could have taken just a bit more time with that. With both 'tizzy' and 'dizzy' it seems to me there ought to be a limerick in there somewhere....

---

After reading all that mumbo jumbo my brain was feeling frizzie.

---

Let me help you with that...

I will not get into a tizzy,

It's just making me slightly dizzy.

But this TOS

Is such a big mess,

It's causing my brain to feel frizzy.

...Dres

[Madelaine McMasters]

---

Dresden Ceriano wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Dillon Levenque wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

I'm just having a bit of fun with this but yes this TOS is making me slightly dizzy.

Personally I am not going to get in a tizzy about any of it.

I may not like it but my take on the Internet has always been two things:

There is no privacy on the internet

and

All your base are belongs to us.

---

 

 You know—since it

is

Friday—you could have taken just a bit more time with that. With both 'tizzy' and 'dizzy' it seems to me there ought to be a limerick in there somewhere....

---

After reading all that mumbo jumbo my brain was feeling frizzie.

---

Let me help you with that...

I will not get into a tizzy,

It's just making me slightly dizzy.

But this TOS

Is such a big mess,

It's causing my brain to feel frizzy.

...Dres

---

Time for Haiku!

Read Terms of Service

Worst headache of the season

Hope aspirin helps

[Dresden Ceriano]

:smileylol: Cute.

...Dres

[Dillon Levenque]

I

---

Madelaine McMasters wrote:

---

Dresden Ceriano wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Dillon Levenque wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

I'm just having a bit of fun with this but yes this TOS is making me slightly dizzy.

Personally I am not going to get in a tizzy about any of it.

I may not like it but my take on the Internet has always been two things:

There is no privacy on the internet

and

All your base are belongs to us.

---

 You know—since it

is

Friday—you could have taken just a bit more time with that. With both 'tizzy' and 'dizzy' it seems to me there ought to be a limerick in there somewhere....

---

After reading all that mumbo jumbo my brain was feeling frizzie.

---

Let me help you with that...

I will not get into a tizzy,

It's just making me slightly dizzy.

But this TOS

Is such a big mess,

It's causing my brain to feel frizzy.

...Dres

---

Time for Haiku!

Read Terms of Service

Worst headache of the season

Hope aspirin helps

---

I get a toofer with this, since both posts are in the same quote. Thank you Dres for the limerick that I was actually 'hearing' (but not clearly enough) with the original post, and also thank you Maddy for the haiku.

I knew there was enough creativity floating around on the Forum to get this done, and I'm pleased to see I was not mistaken.

[Perrie Juran]

I was pressed for time and was trying to not have a hizzy.