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Rosen Janus

So what's new in the TOS now?

71 posts in this topic


Innula Zenovka wrote:


WolfBaginski Bearsfoot wrote:

I'm hearing a rumour in-world about a change to the age-limits.

But whether that gossip is based on somebody reading the TOS, I'm not sure. It ties in with US Federal Law on internet access, and if the rumour were true, they'd have to be ignoring that law.

 

The new ToS, with reference to age limits, are to be found at 
 , so there's no need to rely on rumours.    

Does anything there cause you to think that LL is ignoring Federal law?   I ask because I don't know anything about US law, though it occurs to me that, if I had to assess the likelihood of a established US company with the benefit of legal advice ignoring US Federal law vs the likelihood of an in-world rumour not being wholly accurate, I would probably say that, on balance, I would guess the in-world rumour might be mistaken.

As you surmise, LL can ignore neither Federal Law nor the laws of the state of California. At least, they can't ignore them with impunity. People ignore laws all the time but it is understood there might be consequences. Such as a bunch of people wearing jackets with that three letter acronym showing up at your corporate headquarters asking questions.

It would be incredibly stupid—no, don't go there, I know what a lot of you are thinking—for LL to actually publish a policy that might in any way be read as circumventing local laws, especially those having to do with the protection of minors.

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Lindal Kidd wrote:

I don't know if it's new, but Section 6.2 (vii) should give anyone pause.  Apparently, if you cyber with someone you know is a minor, or
in LL's opinion should have known,
you are in Big Trouble.

in response to an earlier comment:  LL has not banned sexually explicit content, except as provided by the Maturity policy (e.g. not in General regions.)  You're taking that sentence out of context.

The wording of the new policy which removes the requirement for 30 days' notice prior to making a policy change should also raise eyebrows.  Taken literally, it seems to say that they can change the TOS at any time
and not tell you about it
.  You are responsible for checking it every so often to see if they've changed it.  I doubt that they would do that in practice, but if they did, I also doubt that "you should have caught the change we made last month" would fly in court.

You're referring to Section 6.3 (vii)

The earlier comment is not taken out of context.  Although it does conflct with other nearby content.  Activity prohibited without qualification in section 6.1 is later again prohibited with an exception in section 6.3.  Something needs a rewrite. Relevant fragments below.

----------------------

6.1 You will not post or transmit prohibited Content, including any Content that is illegal, harassing or violates any person's rights.

You agree that you will not:

....  (vi) Post, display or transmit any Content or conduct or host any activity that is sexually explicit, or intensely violent.

Any violation by you of the terms of this Section may result in immediate termination of your Accounts without any refund or other compensation.

6.3 Additional rules of conduct apply to users of Second Life:

In addition to the rules set forth in Sections 6.1 and 6.2 above, you agree that you will not:

...(iv) Post, display or transmit any Content that is explicitly sexual, intensely violent or otherwise designated as Adult under our Maturity ratings, except as set forth in those ratings.

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

The big difference that I saw, right off the bat, is that the TOS that we used to have to sign was specifically about accessing Second Life... the new one is not.  It's possible that most of what has been changed was added to incorporate LL's other newer products, therefore making the whole of the TOS even more vague and harder to figure out for those of us who just use SL.

It's been changed so much that they didn't even bother to include a section on, "Changes to This Agreement," like they have in the past.  Seems to me like it would take even a lawyer forever to figure out the ramifications.

Guess I'll just have to lube up my backside, check the little "I Agree..." box, bend over and wait.

...Dres

ETA: Not like I wasn't lubed and waiting already.

ya i went to the TOS to read it as was like..whoa! this is different..then seen the blocksworld in the age section..then looked up and seen the products tab and was like..Whoa again lol

 

i'm gonna have to read it all tomorrow when i have time..

but was suprised by the major changes..

no wonder they have been so quiet the past couple of years..

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Lindal Kidd wrote:

I don't know if it's new, but Section 6.2 (vii) should give anyone pause.  Apparently, if you cyber with someone you know is a minor, or
in LL's opinion should have known,
you are in Big Trouble.

This is actually more relaxed than the old policy, which didn't require that you or LL had reason to believe the other person was a minor.

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Lindal Kidd wrote:

I don't know if it's new, but Section 6.2 (vii) should give anyone pause.  Apparently, if you cyber with someone you know is a minor, or
in LL's opinion should have known,
you are in Big Trouble.


Why would, or should, that give people pause? Why in the hell are people interested in cybering with minors in the first place?

Or did you just not expand upon that, and actually agree with the policy?

...god I hope so...

 

damn typos

 

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I've been training some new peacekeepers on the ToS, and it looks like the classes I held on Monday and Wednesday were much different from what I'm going to teach on Friday. I do recall that after the Teen Grid merged with the main grid, LL had a complicated set of rules that had those aged 13-15 only able to access specially approved areas sponsored by an organization. I updated my lesson plans in June and was happy to see that LL had simplified things (probably so they didn’t have to approve those special sims). Here's what I recorded in the ToS lesson plan:

2.1 Age Requirements for Second Life
Users must be at least 16 years old. If at least 16 but under 18, parent or guardian must consent to having the account and providing personal information, and must accept the ToS on their behalf.
2.2 Age Requirements for Use of Areas of the Service
Users 16-18 may only access areas rated General, while those 18 and older may access General, Moderate and Adult areas.

The minimum age was set at 16 for some time, but now it is back to 13. But I agree that the words are somewhat ambiguous, for example, can a 13 year old be a premium member? I also noticed by a quick check that the old "Additional Terms and Policies" almost all go to the same links at the new "Related Policies."

At least the Community Standards are still there, and seemingly unchanged. That is a relief!

https://secondlife.com/corporate/cs.php

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Here's a troubling addition.  Section 6.1, which outlines prohibited content.  The relevant addition is bolded:

 

6.1 You will not post or transmit prohibited Content, including any Content that is illegal, harassing or violates any person's rights.

You agree that you will not:

(i) Post, display, or transmit Content that violates any law or the rights of any third party, including without limitation Intellectual Property Rights. We reserve the right to request at any time proof of permissions in a form acceptable to us. Failure to provide such proof may lead to, among other things, removal of such Content from the Service;

(ii) Impersonate any person or entity without their consent, or otherwise misrepresent your affiliation, or if you are an adult, impersonate a minor for the purpose of interacting with a minor using the Service;

(iii) Stalk, harass, or engage in any sexual, suggestive, lewd, lascivious, or otherwise inappropriate conduct with minors on the Service;

(iv)  Post, display, or transmit Content that is harmful, threatening or harassing, defamatory, libelous, false, inaccurate, misleading, or invades another person's privacy;

(v) Post, display, or transmit Content that is obscene, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable; or

(vi) Post, display or transmit any Content or conduct or host any activity that is sexually explicit, or intensely violent.
Any violation by you of the terms of this Section may result in immediate termination of your Accounts without any refund or other compensation.

 


Note that this section does not provide any exception for being in an Adult sim, nor does any other part of the document modify Section 6.1 as to where and when it applies.  EDIT: No, not even Section 6.3.  That section applies IN ADDITION to, not instead of or in modification of Section 6.1.  As it is currently written, the updated Terms of Service makes pixel boom-boom an account-banning offense no matter where or when it happens.


In short, it looks like the Linden war on sexual activity is ramping up again.

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Felis Darwin wrote:

Here's a troubling addition.  Section 6.1, which outlines prohibited content.  The relevant addition is bolded:

 

6.1 You will not post or transmit prohibited Content, including any Content that is illegal, harassing or violates any person's rights.

You agree that you will not:

 

(i) Post, display, or transmit Content that violates any law or the rights of any third party, including without limitation Intellectual Property Rights. We reserve the right to request at any time proof of permissions in a form acceptable to us. Failure to provide such proof may lead to, among other things, removal of such Content from the Service;

 

(ii) Impersonate any person or entity without their consent, or otherwise misrepresent your affiliation, or if you are an adult, impersonate a minor for the purpose of interacting with a minor using the Service;

 

(iii) Stalk, harass, or engage in any sexual, suggestive, lewd, lascivious, or otherwise inappropriate conduct with minors on the Service;

 

(iv)  Post, display, or transmit Content that is harmful, threatening or harassing, defamatory, libelous, false, inaccurate, misleading, or invades another person's privacy;

 

(v) Post, display, or transmit Content that is obscene, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable; or

 

(vi) Post, display or transmit any Content or conduct or host any activity that is sexually explicit, or intensely violent.

Any violation by you of the terms of this Section may result in immediate termination of your Accounts without any refund or other compensation.

 

Note that this section does not provide any exception for being in an Adult sim, nor does any other part of the document modify Section 6.1 as to where and when it applies.  As it is currently written, the updated Terms of Service makes pixel boom-boom an account-banning offense no matter where or when it happens.

 

In short, it looks like the Linden war on sexual activity is ramping up again.

See Section 6.3 (bolding and underlining is mine)

(iv) Post, display or transmit any Content that is explicitly sexual, intensely violent or otherwise designated as Adult under our Maturity ratings, except as set forth in those ratings.

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Yes, I've seen it.  The problem is that Section 6.3 is a separate section which does not modify Section 6.1.  In fact, the top of Section 6.3 even starts, "In addition to the rules set forth in Sections 6.1 and 6.2".  In addition to, not in modification of.

Because of the wording both sections are in effect and do not modify each other.  Thus, sexually explicit content is technically a bannable offense under the current TOS wording.

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Felis Darwin wrote:

Yes, I've seen it.  The problem is that Section 6.3 is a separate section which does not modify Section 6.1.  In fact, the top of Section 6.3 even starts, "In addition to the rules set forth in Sections 6.1 and 6.2".  In addition to, not in modification of.

Because of the wording both sections are in effect and do not modify each other.  Thus, sexually explicit content is technically a bannable offense under the current TOS wording.

By the same token Section 6.1 refers to harrassing and violating peoples rights and therefore you can't use sexually explicit or violent material to do that. That does not mean it can't be used in ways not intended to harass someone.  6.3 refers to general rules of conduct, so it is allowed in the properly rated regions.

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Section 2.2 allows for contradictions between the Terms and Additional Terms - saying that the Additional Terms will apply in those cases. Might want to see if adult content in adult areas doesn't fall under that classification.

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sean, that is an amazing document! Thank you for posting it. Was that generated automatically, or did you have to do it manually? And where did you find the old version of the ToS?

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The bottom line:


Everything you have, make or do can be stolen, mutilated or destroyed, by us, at a whim.

You have no rights we are bound to respect.

We know you don't like it.

We don't care; we don't have to.

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Kenbro Utu wrote:

The current TOS as provided by Linden Lab is all the answer we are going to get.  LL does not answer individual queries about the TOS.  It is provided as is, and it is up to the users to interpret and Linden Lab to enforce, and sometimes never the twain shall meet.

The last update they made they put the changes on their blog.


ImaTest wrote:

Or we could be big boys and girls and read the  TOS for ourselves. Of course, that's what we should be doing in the first place. Why does there need to be some official answer? It's not that difficult to compare the TOS, simply time consuming. You can compare the new, to the old, by lookin in the archive.

Yeah, because I really want to read through the whole thing a 5th time.

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Gadget Portal wrote:

I'm pretty sure I just agreed to let them suck my soul out through my ears.

...Dres *hands you some lube for your ears*

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Well, i just read the comparative doc about the TOS

im not native english speaker and im not a lawyer

but i dont see anything really revolutionary in the changes.

They are only covering their ass... Nothing abnormal IMHO.

They gained some new products recently, like Desura, and they want their TOS cover all their products. 

And since they know they are generating a lot of complaints bec of the quality of their service, well, they just make cautious to not being opened ot attack. No more IMHO... and well, just the normal behavor from such kind of company. 

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


Felis Darwin wrote:

Yes, I've seen it.  The problem is that Section 6.3 is a separate section which does not modify Section 6.1.  In fact, the top of Section 6.3 even starts, "In addition to the rules set forth in Sections 6.1 and 6.2".  In addition to, not in modification of.

Because of the wording both sections are in effect and do not modify each other.  Thus, sexually explicit content is technically a bannable offense under the current TOS wording.

By the same token Section 6.1 refers to harrassing and violating peoples rights and therefore you can't use sexually explicit or violent material to do that. That does not mean it can't be used in ways not intended to harass someone.  6.3 refers to general rules of conduct, so it is allowed in the properly rated regions.

You don't change the meaning of a sentence by focusing on the last few words.  The beginning of the sentence says you will not post or transmit prohibited Content.  The following part lists some things that are included.  It doesn't give a green light to prohibited Content if the content isn't illegal, harassing or violating any person's rights.  Putting it more simply:  It does mean you can't post or transmit the list of prohibited Content even if it's not used in ways intended to harrass someone.

I give you an example to clarrify.  The TOS are generalized to apply to all LL services.  Suppose a user of a non-SL service posts some sexually explicit content.  Further suppose they did it in a way that was legal and didn't harras or violate any person's rights.  Clearly that posting is intended to be prohibited by TOS 6.1. 

6.3 is additional rules of conduct that apply to Second Life users.  It is not general rules of conduct.  It is not something that applies in place of 6.1.  Although that may have been the intent.

6.1 You will not post or transmit prohibited Content,

including any Content that is illegal,

harassing or violates any person's rights.

 

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Qwalyphi Korpov wrote:


Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


Felis Darwin wrote:

Yes, I've seen it.  The problem is that Section 6.3 is a separate section which does not modify Section 6.1.  In fact, the top of Section 6.3 even starts, "In addition to the rules set forth in Sections 6.1 and 6.2".  In addition to, not in modification of.

Because of the wording both sections are in effect and do not modify each other.  Thus, sexually explicit content is technically a bannable offense under the current TOS wording.

By the same token Section 6.1 refers to harrassing and violating peoples rights and therefore you can't use sexually explicit or violent material to do that. That does not mean it can't be used in ways not intended to harass someone.  6.3 refers to general rules of conduct, so it is allowed in the properly rated regions.

You don't change the meaning of a sentence by focusing on the last few words.  The beginning of the sentence says you will not post or transmit prohibited Content.  The following part lists some things that are included.  It doesn't give a green light to prohibited Content if the content isn't illegal, harassing or violating any person's rights.  Putting it more simply:  It does mean you can't post or transmit the list of prohibited Content even if it's not used in ways intended to harrass someone.

I give you an example to clarrify.  The TOS are generalized to apply to all LL services. 
Suppose a user of a non-SL service posts some sexually explicit content.  Further suppose they did it in a way that was legal and didn't harras or violate any person's rights. 
Clearly that posting is intended to be prohibited by TOS 6.1. 

6.3 is additional rules of conduct that apply to Second Life users.  It is not general rules of conduct.  It is not something that applies in place of 6.1.  Although that may have been the intent.

6.1 You will not post or transmit prohibited Content,

including any Content that is illegal,

harassing or violates any person's rights.

 

 

 

 

It looks to me like it DOES apply in place of that; except for the heading, bolding is mine:


2.2 Linden Lab grants you certain licenses to access and use the Service while you are in compliance with the Terms of Service; Additional terms may apply.
Linden Lab hereby grants you a non-exclusive, non-transferable, non-sublicenseable, limited, personal, revocable license to access and use the Service on a personal computer, mobile phone or other wireless or internet-enabled device (each an “Internet Device”) as set forth in these Terms of Service and expressly conditioned upon you and each of your Accounts remaining active, in good standing, and in compliance with these Terms of Service.
Additional terms may apply to certain elements of the Service (“Additional Terms”)
; these terms are available where such separate elements are made available on the Websites.
If there is any contradiction between any Additional Terms and these Terms of Service, then the Additional Terms shall take precedence only in relation to that particular element of the Service. For examples of such Additional Terms, please see Section 12 below.

Included in Section 12:


12. RELATED POLICIES

 
The following related policies are incorporated by reference in and made part of this Agreement, and provide Additional Terms, conditions and guidelines regarding the Service.

 

•   

•   

•   

•   

•   

•   

•   

•   

•   

•   

•   

•   

•   

•   

•   

 

Notice Maturity Ratings are included in these "Additional Terms".

 

 

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Who cares about the TOS, fix the pop up that is not working so we can get on with our virtual realities.

 

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So are they saying they are letting 13 yr olds with parental consent onto the main grid? If anyone gets caught having carnal relations with them will be neutered immediately, and their account closed and all inventory, $L and cash in their account confiscated?  Just how is anyone to know who is underage and who is not? Yeah this should be fun.

As far as sexual content, has anyone dared to shop the Market Place outside of their home, your friends would be convinced it was a porn site. There is more male and female genitalia in living color than you'd care for your mom to get a gander at.

If LL tries to shut down the sexual nature of the game, sad to say, they may as well shut down the grid.

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http://lindenlab.com/tos
Section 11.4

"You acknowledge that no other written, oral or electronic communications will serve to modify or supplement this Agreement."

Yay!  Now we can start dropping this to those who have their own TOS 'amendments' in their profiles.  :matte-motes-evil: :smileytongue:

 

 

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You always could drop it to them. Nobody's profile disclosure claiming that they don't agree to the TOS is a replacement for it. Nobody's profile is a contract that anyone has to agree to, and never was.

I would go so far as to say you always could AR a profile that claimed they were not going to honor the TOS - it was proof in writing that they intended to violate it.

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kinda Fallen wrote:

So are they saying they are letting 13 yr olds with parental consent onto the main grid? If anyone gets caught having carnal relations with them will be neutered immediately, and their account closed and all inventory, $L and cash in their account confiscated?  Just how is anyone to know who is underage and who is not? Yeah this should be fun.

As far as sexual content, has anyone dared to shop the Market Place outside of their home, your friends would be convinced it was a porn site. There is more male and female genitalia in living color than you'd care for your mom to get a gander at.

If LL tries to shut down the sexual nature of the game, sad to say, they may as well shut down the grid.

I don't think people fully appreciate the fact these ToS are common to SL and LL's other products, dio, Patterns, and Creatorverse (visit any of those links, navigate to Terms of Service at the bottom of the page, click it, and see where you find yourself).

So, no.   Thirteen-year-olds aren't allowed on the Main Grid.  They are, however, allowed to use some of LL's other products and enter competitions related to those products, with their parents' consent.

This also explains, I think, some of the apparently contradictory clauses about sexual content -- dio and SL certainly need different rules, I think, and at present it looks as if they've included the rules for both with trying to distinguish between them.   I expect things will be refined and clarified as and when they get round to doing it.

I'm not worried about Adult Content particularly, precisely because so much of SL -- which is what pays everyone's salaries at Battery Street and for the acquisition and development of other products -- depends on it.  So I really don't see them trying to shut down Adult content or  Adult sims (about 19.5% of all private sims, plus Zindra) in the near future.

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