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Rosen Janus

So what's new in the TOS now?

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Yah. It's not like I'm not going to agree, but .. it'd be nice to know what's changed. And, an advanced announcement seems only fair. Slogging through all the documents is more than tedious, it's nearly impossible to know what's changed without a line by line comparison. 

C'mon, Lab .. just be nice about it.

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"By clicking accept you agree to let us harvest your vital organs at any time we deem necessary" 

I haven't needed to relog yet so haven't seen it myself so idk.

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I always read the TOS before I agree, but a little guide on what is new would be really helpful in weeding through it. Had things to do in world, but I guess now I will sit and wait till I can figure out what changed that they want me to agree too. I read through again, but I am not seeing anything out of the ordinary. Did they just change wording, add a new rule? How about a little heads up on the change SL.

 

 

 

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Not sure but may have to do with Linden Lab may authorize certain third parties to re-sell Linden Dollars .

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Linden_Dollar_Authorized_Reseller_Terms_and_Conditions

Know there was some changes made while back as to how $L is bought and sold. Maybe this defines more of how that is handled. Just a guess :matte-motes-big-grin:

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See the discussion over at SLU for what has been spotted so far.   Basically, it seems to be an exercise in pulling together all their products plus some new boilerplate about unsolicited ideas and materals and so on.  

There's also some stuff clarifying what happens if they shut up shop completely -- read into that what you will (I think it's more boilerplate; I certainly hope so!).

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Rosen Janus wrote:

Just logged into SL and got the TOSS pop-up.

I try to make it a habit NOT to blindly hit agree on these things.

It's never easy to spot all the changes as you read through the 18 (is it still 18?) documents that are included by reference as the Second Life Terms of Service.  It appears that there are many significant changes.  A key one being 11.4 where you now agree that the TOS may be revised at any time without prior notice.  No more language about material changes being effective 30 days after notice.  Perhaps prompted by their recent failure to provide a 30 day waiting period before implementing material changes. That section pasted below for your convenience.

---------------------------------------

11.4 This Agreement and the referenced Policies are the entire understanding between us.

This Agreement, including the Additional Terms and policies referenced in this Agreement, sets forth the entire understanding and agreement between you and Linden Lab with respect to the subject matter hereof and supersedes any prior or contemporaneous agreements or understandings.

 

Linden Lab reserves the right to modify this Agreement and any Additional Terms, at any time without prior notice (“Updated Terms”). You agree that we may notify you of the Updated Terms by posting them on the Service, and that your use of the Service after we post the Updated Terms (or engaging in other such conduct as we may reasonably specify) constitutes your agreement to the Updated Terms. Therefore, you should review this Agreement and any Additional Terms on a regular and frequent basis. The Updated Terms will be effective as of the time that Linden Lab posts them or such later date as may be specified in them. Except for such Updated Terms, this Agreement may not be modified except by mutual written agreement between you and Linden Lab that is signed by hand (not electronically) by duly authorized representatives of both parties and expressly references amendment of this Agreement. You acknowledge that no other written, oral or electronic communications will serve to modify or supplement this Agreement, and you agree not to make any claims inconsistent with this understanding or in reliance on communications not part of this Agreement.

 

The section headings used herein, including descriptive summary sentences at the start of each section, are for convenience only and shall not affect the interpretation of this Agreement. As used in this Agreement, references to a determination made in Linden Lab's discretion means that the determination will be made by Linden Lab in accordance with its good faith business judgment. If any provision of this Agreement shall be held by a court of competent jurisdiction to be unlawful, void, or unenforceable, then in such jurisdiction that provision shall be deemed severable from these terms and shall not affect the validity and enforceability of the remaining provisions.

 

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Guess we will find out when they finally do shut down, which at the rate online numbers are dropping has to be a consideration for them.  Of course, then again they may do an about face and get things in order and deliver the service they keep promising, but I would not hold my breath.

 

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"5.4 We may terminate your Accounts upon a general suspension or discontinuation of the Service."

 

Basically they are saying if they decide to up and terminate sl, you don't get to sue them for all the money you've  invested in your account, which for some people is thousands. This gives me pause.... Why would they feel the need to put this in there unless it would/could become an issue? Also makes me wonder wether I should buy Lindins or pay sim tier or purchase new items off marketplace if they are just gonna pull the plug one day and we are all just $#@! out of luck.

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I don't know about you, but I certainly never expected to get a refunds on my tier and purchases if LL ceased trading for whatever reason.   Did you seriously think until now that, if LL shut up shop, they'd give your money back, in whole or part?

To my mind, it's just boilerplate -- doesn't mean they're intending to close, but are taking the opportunity to head off any class-action suits if they do.

 

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howdoyoulikemenow wrote:

"5.4 We may terminate your Accounts upon a general suspension or discontinuation of the Service."

 

Basically they are saying if they decide to up and terminate sl, you don't get to sue them for all the money you've  invested in your account, which for some people is thousands. This gives me pause.... Why would they feel the need to put this in there unless it would/could become an issue? Also makes me wonder wether I should buy Lindins or pay sim tier or purchase new items off marketplace if they are just gonna pull the plug one day and we are all just $#@! out of luck.

That, in one form or another, has always been in the TOS. It's not a new concept.

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Different legal systems, but I've been a customer of companies which went bankrupt, and there's sod-all chance of getting your money back when that happens. Somebody such as Anshe Chung has enough money tied up to make it worth checking with a lawyer.

I do see the figures for the number of regions, and SL isn't going to vanish all that soon. They need to stop the shrinkage, and I don't expect a price cut. Perhaps they should stop pulling stunts like this, where they can't even provide the simplest indication that they see us as anything more than money-trees. It's a fair question: why should we pay them for anything when they treat us like this?

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I'm hearing a rumour in-world about a change to the age-limits.

But whether that gossip is based on somebody reading the TOS, I'm not sure. It ties in with US Federal Law on internet access, and if the rumour were true, they'd have to be ignoring that law.

 

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There are new sections concerning IP rights.  DMCA Notices and Counter Notice procedures are spelled out rather than being incorporated by reference to the Official Policies. 

There is a new section about the Procedure for Alleging Infringement of Other Intellectual Property dealing with property other than copyrightsand also one for Unsolicited Ideas and Materials Prohibited; No Confidential or Special Relationship with Linden Lab.

There appears to be other changes too, but those are the most obvious.  I haven't compared it yet to the former TOS that is available in the TOS archive.

Even though it is a royal pain, you should never agree to anything before you read it.  If you do and violate it out of ignorance, then you have only yourself to blame if you are suspended or banned.

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WolfBaginski Bearsfoot wrote:

I'm hearing a rumour in-world about a change to the age-limits.

But whether that gossip is based on somebody reading the TOS, I'm not sure. It ties in with US Federal Law on internet access, and if the rumour were true, they'd have to be ignoring that law.

 

The new ToS, with reference to age limits, are to be found at http://lindenlab.com/tos#tos3 , so there's no need to rely on rumours.    

Does anything there cause you to think that LL is ignoring Federal law?   I ask because I don't know anything about US law, though it occurs to me that, if I had to assess the likelihood of a established US company with the benefit of legal advice ignoring US Federal law vs the likelihood of an in-world rumour not being wholly accurate, I would probably say that, on balance, I would guess the in-world rumour might be mistaken.

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I dont know Section 6 may have changed it looks liek they have banned sexuialy explisid activity

 

 (vi) Post, display or transmit any Content or conduct or host any activity that is sexually explicit, or intensely violent. 
Any violation by you of the terms of this Section may result in immediate termination of your Accounts without any refund or other compensation.

 

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Since everyone seems to have a different answer and there are dozens of rumors floating about, lets wait for an official answer.

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I take that to mean "we can if we want to," rather than "we're going to,"  and I would think it's more aimed at -- for example -- people's profiles than what might happen on Zindra.   It should be remembered, too, that the new ToS now seem to apply  to all LL's products, so this clause might be more applicable to, for example, dio  than to SL.

The more I look at the ToS, though, the more I think it's codifying "our grid, our rules," which I think we knew anyway.

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Trin1 wrote:

Since everyone seems to have a different answer and there are dozens of rumors floating about, lets wait for an official answer.

The current TOS as provided by Linden Lab is all the answer we are going to get.  LL does not answer individual queries about the TOS.  It is provided as is, and it is up to the users to interpret and Linden Lab to enforce, and sometimes never the twain shall meet.

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Trin1 wrote:

Since everyone seems to have a different answer and there are dozens of rumors floating about, lets wait for an official answer.

Or we could be big boys and girls and read the  TOS for ourselves. Of course, that's what we should be doing in the first place. Why does there need to be some official answer? It's not that difficult to compare the TOS, simply time consuming. You can compare the new, to the old, by lookin in the archive.

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The big difference that I saw, right off the bat, is that the TOS that we used to have to sign was specifically about accessing Second Life... the new one is not.  It's possible that most of what has been changed was added to incorporate LL's other newer products, therefore making the whole of the TOS even more vague and harder to figure out for those of us who just use SL.

It's been changed so much that they didn't even bother to include a section on, "Changes to This Agreement," like they have in the past.  Seems to me like it would take even a lawyer forever to figure out the ramifications.

Guess I'll just have to lube up my backside, check the little "I Agree..." box, bend over and wait.

...Dres

ETA: Not like I wasn't lubed and waiting already.

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I don't know if it's new, but Section 6.2 (vii) should give anyone pause.  Apparently, if you cyber with someone you know is a minor, or in LL's opinion should have known, you are in Big Trouble.

in response to an earlier comment:  LL has not banned sexually explicit content, except as provided by the Maturity policy (e.g. not in General regions.)  You're taking that sentence out of context.

The wording of the new policy which removes the requirement for 30 days' notice prior to making a policy change should also raise eyebrows.  Taken literally, it seems to say that they can change the TOS at any time and not tell you about it.  You are responsible for checking it every so often to see if they've changed it.  I doubt that they would do that in practice, but if they did, I also doubt that "you should have caught the change we made last month" would fly in court.

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