LL should write all the code

[Medhue Simoni]

Here is an idea that I've been juggling around in my head. I'd love to know what people think of it.

 

Let me explain a little first. Before I found SL, I played with MODs for games. In MODs, most, if not all, the code is already written. You are just taking that code and implementing it in your MODs. Creating your own fully functioning game in a game MOD is easy, cause all the elements are already there.

When I found SL, I kind of thought of it all in the same way. Here tho, we have to write our own scripts to do things. Yes, there are many free scripts and examples to look at to help you along the way. These are usually simple scripts tho. If you walk around SL, you'll see these simple scripts in use everywhere. What you will not find everywhere, are complex scripts.

A couple of years ago, my coder and I decided to try and make a complex combat game. Development took almost a full year. When it was released, it got some attention. We aren't getting rich off of it, lets just put it that way. This experienced showed me alot about the problems of developing something that is as complex as a functioning game. There are many combat systems in SL, and each 1 works differently. The reason we did this project was because many of our customers were not happy with the current options for combat systems. Our system, despite all the aspects that I love about it, became just another combat system in the ether. Some specific groups use it, but outside of those, it was not a profitable venture.

Last year, when pathfinding development was going on, I was looking for more complex code for animals and pathfinding. What I found was a super complex script that pretty much handles a whole sim full of animals and critters. It was made by a Linden for testing the pathfinding system.

This immediately had me thinking, "Why doesn't LL just write all the complex code in SL?" Much like we all create for the SL avatar, if we all has access to a beautiful script for combat or an RPG game, then we'd all be developing for 1 system. Because we'd all be developing for that 1 system, it would quickly become the system to use with more options than could ever be imagined.

I'm using the example of a combat system as it is a good example. Right now, we have dozens, if not hundreds of combat systems that are mediocre, at best. Few people truely like the combat system they are currently using. This creates an environment of chaos with numerous creators wasting their time developing for systems that go nowhere.

If LL wrote all the complex code for different things in SL, we'd all have access to that code, and we'd all be creating for it. Just like the SL avatar has a million options, so will those complex systems. IMHO, this is how to put SL back on the map. Professionally created and optimized code, with hundreds, if not thousands, of people creating items for it.

[Innula Zenovka]

I think one of the main problems with trying to introduce a new combat system is that, however disatisfied people may be with aspects of any of the main, established, ones, people do understand them, there are plenty of sims where you can go and use them,  people have frequently made not-insubstantial investments in kit for that particular system, and there's plenty of stuff made by different weapons makers for a particular system.

Why would people want to switch in large numbers to a new, unknown, system, no matter how good?    To my mind, it's rather like MS Office in RL.   I can think of plenty of ways I'd like to see Word improved (simply replace it with WordPerfect, she muttered) and lots of stuff I think could be better done than Excel does it, for example.    But it would be foolish to bet the farm on a wonderful new Office-like suite, no matter how good, because everyone is used to using MS Office and it would be such a pain to change.

Furthermore, I don't think weapons are that difficult to script, at least not in the sense you're talking about.    Shooting a projectile at someone, for example, and recording if you've hit him or not, is pretty trivial, or at least it's easy enough to find out how to do it.    The two complicated bits are designing and implementing the rules for what happens when you do hit him (how badly he's injured,  how long he takes to recover and  so on) and also -- which is the bit I like about weapons scripting -- making all the details of the animations and the gun's actions come together in a visually satisfying way.    

 

[Medhue Simoni]

I totally agree with you. IMHO tho, what SL lacks is continuety. I like the example of the SL avatar as it clearly shows how a whole platform can benefit from an opensource creation that every1 can create for. When it comes to combat, I think SL would benefit from 1 opensource complete system that every1 creates for. All those nuances that you like would still be there. Actually, it would be more fun, as I've always loved tweeking and adding on to things. Now that my own combat system is done, making all the weapons and different accessories is easy and the complete opposite of the head banging torture that was the creation of the system.

Another prime example of an opensource system that helped a whole industry was the ZHAO. You can't be an AO creator without knowing the ZHAO intimately. Personally, I didn't like many aspects of it, and decided to make my own AO system. That said, it got me started creating AOs quicker in SL, and also gave me a metric to measure a system by.

These opensource tools are like gold mines for any platform when done well and embraced by many. There can't be the kind of advancement in a world like SL when the biggest systems are privately owned and controlled. I'm not a socialist in any sense of the word, but I do think there is a place for the owners and creators of a world to advance their platform by creating opensources resources that every1 can use.

[Medhue Simoni]

Imagine, a full combat system/rpg system/farming and food system/mining system/advanced weapon and tool making system/npc system  all in 1 system that is completely opensource. You'd be talking about a evolutionary event in SL, allowing it to compete directly with any game out there. We'd also have continued developement of it to keep up with the times.

[Czari Zenovka]

With SL writing all the code, this seems to me to be one step closer to turning SL into a glorified MMO....

....which is probably what Rod wants.

I'd be totally against it.

[Bree Giffen]

Yeah, one code would be great. Everyone re-inventing the wheel over and over is pointless. But it does somewhat marginalize the resident programmers right?

[Pussycat Catnap]

Well...

 

LLs has developed one combat system for us all to use. Turn safe off in your land parcel and you will have it.

The reason SL has so many different systems is because no one liked the one LLs made...

- Sort of.

Because many of the combat weapons in SL use the LLs system. Further, some of the various systems use also work by extending out the base system.

- So this is an example of what you'd get if they did this with everything else as well. No one would agree, you'd still have 20 different ways to peel an orange... and not much would be different from now.

Except 23 of those 20 developers would be raising up a storm claiming LLs was trying to drive them out of business.

 

[Medhue Simoni]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

With SL writing all the code, this seems to me to be one step closer to turning SL into a glorified MMO....

....which is probably what Rod wants.

I'd be totally against it.

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I know lots of people talk about this, "Rod is going to turn SL into a game", but I just don't understand what all the hysteria is. People act as if better games in SL some how takes away from the SL we all know and love. I don't see how it does. It's still SL but with better games. Who wouldn't want that? Obviously some don't, but I have yet to hear an actually reason that isn't based on nostalgia.

[Ted McGregor]

Aready in existence elsewhere based on the Source-engine by Valve Software.

Maybe LL should hire coders like these.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Bree Giffen wrote:

Yeah, one code would be great. Everyone re-inventing the wheel over and over is pointless. But it does somewhat marginalize the resident programmers right?

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I really don't think so. Those coders could still mod the code. Plus, unless you actually wrote all the code yourself, you wouldn't even be playing with this kind of code, so it actually would be more fun and interesting for them. Plus, it's not putting any coder out of business. Any1 could still compete with the system. When me and my coder were making our system, there was no fun at all. It was literally beated your head against a wall type of agony. When we were done, and playing with the different things we could make, we had a dang good time.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Well...

 

LLs has developed one combat system for us all to use. Turn safe off in your land parcel and you will have it.

The reason SL has so many different systems is because no one liked the one LLs made...

- Sort of.

Because many of the combat weapons in SL use the LLs system. Further, some of the various systems use also work by extending out the base system.

- So this is an example of what you'd get if they did this with everything else as well. No one would agree, you'd still have 20 different ways to peel an orange... and not much would be different from now.

Except 23 of those 20 developers would be raising up a storm claiming LLs was trying to drive them out of business.

 

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The old combat meter in the viewer is a POS. It's limited. It's amost laughably limited. I'm talking about something much more advanced.

If people want something different then they always have the option of funding that venture and writing the code themselves. Good luck with that. Or, they can mod LL's code. I'd pick the latter.

As for current developer with combat system or other system that LL might make being pissed, sorry I just don't see it. Yeah, there might be a couple that might not want it, but once they got their hands on the code, I'm sure they'd be thankful. No matter how good of a coder you are, LL has access to things no1 else can touch. If LL needs to change something major to make things better, they can. No coder in SL can compete with that kind of access. Any group that has a successful system now, would likely still be successful after, as no1 has an advantage, as the code is open to every1.

[Medhue Simoni]

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TDD123 wrote:

Aready in existence

elsewhere

based on the Source-engine bye Valve Software.

 

Maybe LL should hire coders like these.

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Gary's MOD is not SL and never will be. Personally, I'd rather play with CryEngine3 or Unity rather than some seriously old hacked game.

[Freya Mokusei]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

LL has access to things no1 else can touch. If LL needs to change something major to make things better, they can. No coder in SL can compete with that kind of access.

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Where is your evidence for this? LSL scripts use publicly-available functions; the one instance of LL using their own codebase (Linden Realms) has hardly been trouble-free. It's easily cheated, the scripts are at least as clumsy as any random user-written example of code.

LL didn't leave it to us to create things like AOs, combat systems (that don't just act as damage points), poseballs, walkers, titlers, collars, etc etc simply because they thought it'd be a fun activity for players of their game to come up with their own toys. They did it because they don't know how or why these things would be necessary, and because they wanted a world full of content without having to do any of it themselves. Considering both the above, LL are not capable of consistant and successful deployment of any system to a grid-wide audience (Linden Realms is, at best, a niche product), written in LSL or otherwise.

If we left this stuff to LL it would take months to arrive and then be faulty out of the box. They lack the development power to do it as well as you seem to imagine they can (again, if you have evidence to the contrary I would love to see it), and they lack the insight and experience of the in-world environment to know what residents want from their scripts. I find it hard to believe that a Linden could write a script to be any more functional in SL (considering all the hacks, tweaks, oddities required to code in LSL) than any random user, let alone a resident with experience.

This also makes no mention of LL's current disinterest in developing for SL. I can't personally see them spending time working in our world, developing in LSL when they could be playing with their new toys.

[Innula Zenovka]

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Bree Giffen wrote:

Yeah, one code would be great. Everyone re-inventing the wheel over and over is pointless. But it does somewhat marginalize the resident programmers right?

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If I've properly understood what Medhue is suggesting (and I may not have), I don't think it would make much difference to most people who script weapons.     I don't do much weapons scripting now, but when I do, it's people saying "I've made a new pistol/sword/longbow/RPG/Ground to Air missile and I'd like you to script if for such-and-such a combat system."    

If it's a system I'm familiar with, I can use that system's API to make the weapon behave as the maker wants.   That's all pretty straightforward, if you know what you're doing (simple scripting and looking stuff up in a pile of notecards, usually)  and it's by no means as interesting as making the weapon itself work nicely, in the sense of getting the animations to play at the right time, getting the used cartridges to eject from the pistol and so on.

So what I think Medhue is suggesting is that LL should write a combat system, like one of the couple of dozen resident-made ones already in existence, and everyone should make stuff for that.    It wouldn't really affect most scripters, I don't think.   We'd just need to learn how to work with yet another system, but that's not a big deal.

 

[Sy Beck]

Why do you assume that LL would or could write a good complex script?  Every TPV for example has more functionality, utility and a better UI than the LL viewer.   Is your view though that if LL code it then it will be opensource and can then be easily monetised by anybody else who can add a bell and whistle to it without having to do the majority of the work involved?

[Medhue Simoni]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

LL has access to things no1 else can touch. If LL needs to change something major to make things better, they can. No coder in SL can compete with that kind of access.

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Where is your evidence for this? LSL scripts use publicly-available functions; the one instance of LL using their own codebase (Linden Realms) has hardly been trouble-free. It's easily cheated, the scripts are at least as clumsy as any random user-written example of code.

LL didn't leave it to us to create things like AOs, combat systems (that don't just act as damage points), poseballs, walkers, titlers, collars, etc etc simply because they thought it'd be a fun activity for players of their game to come up with their own toys. They did it because they don't know how or why these things would be necessary, and because they wanted a world full of content without having to do any of it themselves. Considering both the above, LL are not capable of consistant and successful deployment of any system to a grid-wide audience (Linden Realms is, at best, a niche product), written in LSL or otherwise.

If we left this stuff to LL it would take months to arrive and then be faulty out of the box. They lack the development power to do it as well as you seem to imagine they can (again, if you have evidence to the contrary I would love to see it), and they lack the insight and experience of the in-world environment to know what residents want from their scripts. I find it hard to believe that a Linden could write a script to be any more functional in SL (considering all the hacks, tweaks, oddities required to code in LSL) than any random user, let alone a resident with experience.

This also makes no mention of LL's current disinterest in developing for SL. I can't personally see them spending time working in our world, developing in LSL when they could be playing with their new toys.

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Valid points, but I have seen some good code from them. I even gave an example, which was that script for animals and the pathfinding system. Another point I will make is that Rod recently said, LL is mostly coders now. If I'm working for LL, I'd much rather be writing code for games, than fixing many of the bugs in SL. lol

[Medhue Simoni]

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Sy Beck wrote:

Why do you assume that LL would or could write a good complex script?  Every TPV for example has more functionality, utility and a better UI than the LL viewer.   Is your view though that if LL code it then it will be opensource and can then be easily monetised by anybody else who can add a bell and whistle to it without having to do the majority of the work involved?

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Yes! The concept is akin to the SL avatar example. Instead of dealing with licenses for all the different systems in SL, you'd be dealing with no licensing and code that every1 has access to. Your point about TPVs having a better UI is an opinion. Yeah, some TPVs have some interesting functionalities. Whether they are needed, wanted, or a complete waste of time, could be debated. I tend to not use TPVs cause I don't enjoy searching for an hour to find a check box to turn some BS off.

Plus, I just want to point out again, that some nobody coder in SL has no pull on fixing something or adding a function to SL. With LL dedicated to developing different complex systems in SL, they will more clearly see the issues, and possibly fix them, or add something to make it easier.

Imagine this also. Combat systems need servers to hold stats. What if LL made the whole system, and handled the servers? I'm talking about alot more than just a combat system tho.

[Freya Mokusei]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

I'd much rather be writing code for games, than fixing many of the bugs in SL. lol

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Pretty much sums it up I think, yeah.

LL clearly have developers, but how many are assigned to SL? Almost none, especially when it comes to serious business like OpenGL. I don't know how much manpower the new materials project has required, but I imagine those skills will not stay within the SL-Linden structuring for very long once it's finished. UI, web-dev and graphics teams are all on other products (have been for years), most of the staffing in SL is spent on keeping everything from falling apart. LL continue to fire off randomly and then pull support until possible fun features fall into a very preventable state of decay.

I'd never develop a product (such as a weapon) that was so connected to their systems that it would be useless when LL yanked the project (such as your hypothetical combat system). Look at all the people LL has burned in the past, and continues to burn just because they had a little faith in the LoveMachine. (examples include but are definitely not limited to: Avatars United/my.secondlife.com, education, advanced pathfinding/NPCs, group organisers, annual charity events, animators, anyone who needs parcel or region security controls, Enterprise/Nebraska, smart Marketplace/enhancements/sales metrics, advanced Windlight)

[Medhue Simoni]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

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Bree Giffen wrote:

Yeah, one code would be great. Everyone re-inventing the wheel over and over is pointless. But it does somewhat marginalize the resident programmers right?

---

If I've properly understood what Medhue is suggesting (and I may not have), I don't think it would make much difference to most people who script weapons.     I don't do much weapons scripting now, but when I do, it's people saying "I've made a new pistol/sword/longbow/RPG/Ground to Air missile and I'd like you to script if for such-and-such a combat system."    

If it's a system I'm familiar with, I can use that system's API to make the weapon behave as the maker wants.   That's all pretty straightforward, if you know what you're doing (simple scripting and looking stuff up in a pile of notecards, usually)  and it's by no means as interesting as making the weapon itself work nicely, in the sense of getting the animations to play at the right time, getting the used cartridges to eject from the pistol and so on.

So what I think Medhue is suggesting is that LL should write a combat system, like one of the

couple of dozen

resident-made ones already in existence, and everyone should make stuff for that.    It wouldn't really affect most scripters, I don't think.   We'd just need to learn how to work with yet another system, but that's not a big deal.

 

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The bigger point that I would make is, are any of those systems any good? Do any of them utilize SL to it's fullest? Is there farming? Can you kill an animal and eat it? Can you skin that animal and get clothing from it? Why not? I could go on and on about what is possible yet no1 is doing. The other question is why aren't they doing these things? To me, that is easy to answer. They don't have the time or money to invent in the development. And .... those systems will stay in their current form until some1 with the time and money does make something better. I won't hold my breathe.

[Freya Mokusei]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

They don't have the time or money to invent in the development. And .... those systems will stay in their current form until some1 with the time and money does make something better. I won't hold my breathe.

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Sorry to pinch a post to someone else, but this caught my eye (and I lack posting-time today, but I hope to continue monitoring this thread). It is the fundamental weakness of SL, always has been and always will be - you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. Significant large-scale development in SL is impossible because individual manhours stack poorly; a lone creator can spend six months on a single product, but there is no short-term reward for this.

I have however seen this happen in another market, not combat. OpenCollar, a BDSM toy, is an open source (and free) set of restraints and controls for enthusiasts of that particular activity. It is massively common, has large-ish scale professional-level development behind it, has support for plug-ins, edits, mods, third-party APIs, etc. The net result of its sale is that developers do not build collars anymore - there is no market for it when OpenCollar scoops up new users, and typical users rarely buy two competing sets of the same toy (it's common in fact, to not realise that better, more detailed restraint systems exist). I think it may be an educational case study for this system you are proposing.

 

 

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

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Bree Giffen wrote:

Yeah, one code would be great. Everyone re-inventing the wheel over and over is pointless. But it does somewhat marginalize the resident programmers right?

---

If I've properly understood what Medhue is suggesting (and I may not have), I don't think it would make much difference to most people who script weapons.     I don't do much weapons scripting now, but when I do, it's people saying "I've made a new pistol/sword/longbow/RPG/Ground to Air missile and I'd like you to script if for such-and-such a combat system."    

If it's a system I'm familiar with, I can use that system's API to make the weapon behave as the maker wants.   That's all pretty straightforward, if you know what you're doing (simple scripting and looking stuff up in a pile of notecards, usually)  and it's by no means as interesting as making the weapon itself work nicely, in the sense of getting the animations to play at the right time, getting the used cartridges to eject from the pistol and so on.

So what I think Medhue is suggesting is that LL should write a combat system, like one of the

couple of dozen

resident-made ones already in existence, and everyone should make stuff for that.    It wouldn't really affect most scripters, I don't think.   We'd just need to learn how to work with yet another system, but that's not a big deal.

 

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The bigger point that I would make is, are any of those systems any good? Do any of them utilize SL to it's fullest? Is there farming? Can you kill an animal and eat it? Can you skin that animal and get clothing from it? Why not? I could go on and on about what is possible yet no1 is doing. The other question is why aren't they doing these things? To me, that is easy to answer. They don't have the time or money to invent in the development. And .... those systems will stay in their current form until some1 with the time and money does make something better. I won't hold my breathe.

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Yes.. there are several Gorean systems that have farming, where you have to take different food stuffs to make a better meal.

Spellfire has the same , even to the point of having to hunt and skin animals to make armor. or churning butter to make it. milking cows..

Heres the real question though.. How many people WANT to spend their time in SL, with all of the lag and crashes, doing mundane things to make stufff for RP? In an MMoRPG you buy thing at market already made.. If you want to improve an item you can do the mundane or just buy a better one.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

If i could make one point of constructive criticism..

You mention your combat system was not profitable.. I have an idea why. You prices are all over the place. Most weapon creators have a very tight range their prices fall into, yours run from $10L to $1099L.. which says to me that the person with the most money will win in your system. Now i notice you dont say how much damage each weapon does, so one would assume that the higher cost weapons do more damage.

just my thoughts. not trying to attack or belittle. I may be totally wrong. and im sure someone will let me know if i am.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

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Bree Giffen wrote:

Yeah, one code would be great. Everyone re-inventing the wheel over and over is pointless. But it does somewhat marginalize the resident programmers right?

---

If I've properly understood what Medhue is suggesting (and I may not have), I don't think it would make much difference to most people who script weapons.     I don't do much weapons scripting now, but when I do, it's people saying "I've made a new pistol/sword/longbow/RPG/Ground to Air missile and I'd like you to script if for such-and-such a combat system."    

If it's a system I'm familiar with, I can use that system's API to make the weapon behave as the maker wants.   That's all pretty straightforward, if you know what you're doing (simple scripting and looking stuff up in a pile of notecards, usually)  and it's by no means as interesting as making the weapon itself work nicely, in the sense of getting the animations to play at the right time, getting the used cartridges to eject from the pistol and so on.

So what I think Medhue is suggesting is that LL should write a combat system, like one of the

couple of dozen

resident-made ones already in existence, and everyone should make stuff for that.    It wouldn't really affect most scripters, I don't think.   We'd just need to learn how to work with yet another system, but that's not a big deal.

 

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The bigger point that I would make is, are any of those systems any good? Do any of them utilize SL to it's fullest? Is there farming? Can you kill an animal and eat it? Can you skin that animal and get clothing from it? Why not? I could go on and on about what is possible yet no1 is doing. The other question is why aren't they doing these things? To me, that is easy to answer. They don't have the time or money to invent in the development. And .... those systems will stay in their current form until some1 with the time and money does make something better. I won't hold my breathe.

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Yes.. there are several Gorean systems that have farming, where you have to take different food stuffs to make a better meal.

Spellfire has the same , even to the point of having to hunt and skin animals to make armor. or churning butter to make it. milking cows..

Heres the real question though.. How many people WANT to spend their time in SL, with all of the lag and crashes, doing mundane things to make stufff for RP? In an MMoRPG you buy thing at market already made.. If you want to improve an item you can do the mundane or just buy a better one.

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Well, correct me if I'm wrong here, but like 30k-50k people are logged in at any given time, and something like a million people log in every month, with over 10k new signups every day. Many of them doing much more mundane things than farming. I can't tell you why people do what they do, or why any1 with half a brain would play Farmville on FB. In my mind, I'd much rather do something like that in SL than some really bad 2d BS FB game. I guess I shouldn't say that, as I was contracted earlier this year to help work on a FB game. That was a poker game tho. They just lauched it a couple week ago too. lol

Let me give another example from 1 of my personal experiences. Last year, I was approached about a game that people wanted to make, to give my advice. They were a Libertarian group that wanted to create a town where they could implement their ideology. The 2 things they needed were an economy and a combat system. I told them SL would be there best bet. The only problems were the initial cost for the sim, and the combat system. Of course I had mine, but it would've needed some extensive modding as mine is not fully functional in all the aspects they wanted. To use any other system would have been even more work. Basically, the project never went forward because SL didn't have these systems ready to go.

The way I see it, if SL did have a complete and complex combat or rpg system for any1 to use and mod at will, any1 could create their own fully functioning world within no time. The system would never need to make a profit for those new worlds, as they didn't need to invest money into it. LL would sell more land to those that want to create their world. We see worlds like the Navi communities pop up after the AVATAR movie. I know a guy right now that is part of a group that are creating a Tron community. Combat or RPG systems are a problem for all these worlds, as well as paying for the sims. When the combat system isn't a noose around their neck, it makes things a whole lot easier on them.

 

[Medhue Simoni]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

If i could make one point of constructive criticism..

You mention your combat system was not profitable.. I have an idea why. You prices are all over the place. Most weapon creators have a very tight range their prices fall into, yours run from $10L to $1099L.. which says to me that the person with the most money will win in your system. Now i notice you dont say how much damage each weapon does, so one would assume that the higher cost weapons do more damage.

just my thoughts. not trying to attack or belittle. I may be totally wrong. and im sure someone will let me know if i am.

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Actually, the problem was not the cost, as any1 can use my system totally for free. Every part of my system has a free way, and a pay way, whenever possible. Yes, the more something costs, the better it is, or the quicker it does what it should. My system was just vastly different than any other system. It focussed on more realistic fighting, technique, and strategy, not who can hit keys faster. So, the core of the system and where it all started was in the hand to hand combat. Quite a few boxing venues and MMA places use my system. When I say it is not profitable, I mean for the time we spent working on it. Not a day goes by that I don't login and find some1 playing with it on my sim, killing all the NPCs. The people that learn it, love it. So, it wasn't a dud, but not what we expected. We actually stopped development after the initial release to work on other things and get a feel for the response of customers. Now, my old partner and coder is in medical school and I have yet to find a replacement to further they system. I doubt I'll ever go further with it, as the incentive just isn't there. Who knows tho, I still get asked about it pretty regularly, and those that do use it really like it.

Oh, and the person with more money won't have a big advantage with my system. As I said, it's about strategy. A person could get the best melee hud and fight against some1 with the freebie melee HUD and still lose, if the other fighter can stay out of the range of his strikes. Stamina keeps the users from just swinging away at each other. Even the most expensive gun, the Tommy gun, won't be a huge advantage over some1 with a gun, if they know how to use it and don't waste ammo. That said, I'd rather have the Tommy gun. lol

[Innula Zenovka]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

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The bigger point that I would make is, are any of those systems any good? Do any of them utilize SL to it's fullest? Is there farming? Can you kill an animal and eat it? Can you skin that animal and get clothing from it? Why not? I could go on and on about what is possible yet no1 is doing. The other question is why aren't they doing these things? To me, that is easy to answer. They don't have the time or money to invent in the development. And .... those systems will stay in their current form until some1 with the time and money does make something better. I won't hold my breathe.

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 Doesn't the answer to "are any of those systems any good?" depend on what you want the system to do?   I mean, if I'm interested in WW1 arial dogfights between biplanes, or WW2 tank battles, I'm probably not too bothered about whether the combat system I'm using involves farming or hunting.