Your Store - Your Reputation

[Gavin Hird]

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Gadget Portal wrote:

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

Just a question, what would it take to create a Second Life Better Business Bureau. Someplace where you can look up a seller or store and see if someone has reported them? And could that even be done? Helps for finding problem businesses in RL, why not SL.

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There's not a single resident I'd trust to be impartial enough to be in charge of that. And we know LL wouldn't do it.

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Besides you would have massive problems to over time maintain reliable and accurate information unless you operated with RL identities, and we know how the community have reacted to that. 

Perhaps you would get better results if it was possible for merchants to do their own brand building in a sensible way in the marketplace, and in addition be able to operate with different product lines without having to create alt accounts. 

 

...another aspect of this is that copyright legislation and the legislation for fair use is quite a bit different depending on the country the person behind the account is resident in. It could also be that the copyright holder is located in another country so the US takedown legislation could never be applied or it would be way too costly to file the paperwork outside their resident country for LL to be able to remove the content in violation. This could also be a reason why we see ripped content that is never removed despite "everyone" can see the SL merchant can possibly not be the copyright holder. 

[Teagan Tobias]

To: Just another post:

Okay, then back to what Rya said earlier, this is more for merchants and not so much for customers. So start there, merchants keeping track of merchants and only periodically putting out a report of your findings, first to LL and then have stores post it in world. Just like RL stores post the Better Business symbol in there stores. Proudly post, I'm a member of SLBBB (or what ever the name ends up being).

The way I see it, your not getting the help your looking for from LL, so things to look at are:

One, the solution is not going to be easy.

Two, the solution is not going to be free.

Three, the solution will take considerable amounts of working together.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Rya Nitely wrote:

 Nobody will be using sculpties or standard prims soon. Especially when you look at the high quality you can obtain with mesh that you just can't get with sculpties or standard prims.

Is that like saying mesh will completely replace system layer clothing? I see more and more threads about how mesh doesn't fit well. IF and when they get the deformer done then i will agree that mesh will replace system clothing.

Although stolen items haven't had a huge impact on clothing stores yet -  I suspect it's just a mattter of time before this happens.

Right, because copybotters have never swiped from clothing stores...

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[Drake1 Nightfire]

How is burning a CD, that i would assume they would get back, braking any laws?

Back in the day we made tapes to listen to, then came CDs, now MP3 players. All do the same thing. Enable you to listen to portable music.

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

How, exactly, does one know with 100% accuracy that the mesh clothing builders kit i have purchased is stolen from a 3D site? Are we to check each and every of the hundreds of site before making a purchase? How are we to know if they bought a license or not? We have to take some things on faith.

Blatant game rips are obvious, i am speaking of clothing meshes here.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

How is burning a CD, that i would assume they would get back, braking any laws?

Back in the day we made tapes to listen to, then came CDs, now MP3 players. All do the same thing. Enable you to listen to portable music.

 

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And even farther back there were 8-Tracks; I was really happy when cassette tapes replaced those clunky things.

[Rya Nitely]

I haven't seen much about mesh clothing rips. When reading the SLUniverse thread I understand it's because of all the layers and rigging involved. Apparently, it requires some talent to do all that. Now, items that you just rez are much easier. Most of these thieves are not all that savvy in making things work properly. That's the reason why they like to sell full perm so that they are putting it into the hands of more experienced builders, meaning less customer support.

Now, this is just what I've gathered from reading.

[Perrie Juran]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

How is burning a CD, that i would assume they would get back, braking any laws?

Back in the day we made tapes to listen to, then came CDs, now MP3 players. All do the same thing. Enable you to listen to portable music.

 

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I'm aware of all the things people do.  In the past I have done some of them also.  The when and where and who and what of when copying is legal can get to be a very picky subject.

There is no Carte Blanche for copying any copyrighted work.

As a "class assignment," that is, "for educational purposes," it was covered by specific rules.

If you were to ask my personal opinion, some of the rules are overkill.  But that is just my opinion.

 

 

eta punctuation

 

 

 

[Tari Landar]

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

Just a question, what would it take to create a Second Life Better Business Bureau. Someplace where you can look up a seller or store and see if someone has reported them? And could that even be done? Helps for finding problem businesses in RL, why not SL.

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It would take a team of many people who can be 100% neutral at all times on all matters, with the knowledge needed to actually investigate iussues. It would also take the complete trust of all the residents.

Neither of those is possible in sl, imo.

[Pamela Galli]

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Tari Landar wrote:

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

Just a question, what would it take to create a Second Life Better Business Bureau. Someplace where you can look up a seller or store and see if someone has reported them? And could that even be done? Helps for finding problem businesses in RL, why not SL.

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It would take a team of many people who can be 100% neutral at all times on all matters, with the knowledge needed to actually investigate iussues. It would also take the complete trust of all the residents.

Neither of those is possible in sl, imo.

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I think it would take a team of people who post photos like on the Pinterest page, and let people draw their own conclusions. On the Pinterest page, for example, you have lovely pics from the stores' marketplace listings right beside the pictures of visually identical items taken from a VARIETY of 3D sites by DIFFERENT 3D artists. Then those disappeared from the marketplace. (And if you look at the "creators" creation history, you will notice they rather suddenly developed their professional level 3D skills.) Anyone is free to draw his own conclusions. 

[Tari Landar]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

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Tari Landar wrote:

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

Just a question, what would it take to create a Second Life Better Business Bureau. Someplace where you can look up a seller or store and see if someone has reported them? And could that even be done? Helps for finding problem businesses in RL, why not SL.

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It would take a team of many people who can be 100% neutral at all times on all matters, with the knowledge needed to actually investigate iussues. It would also take the complete trust of all the residents.

Neither of those is possible in sl, imo.

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I think it would take a team of people who post photos like on the Pinterest page, and let people draw their own conclusions. On the Pinterest page, for example, you have lovely pics from the stores' marketplace listings right beside the pictures of visually identical items taken from a VARIETY of 3D sites by DIFFERENT 3D artists. Then those disappeared from the marketplace. (And if you look at the "creators" creation history, you will notice they rather suddenly developed their professional level 3D skills.) Anyone is free to draw his own conclusions. 

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That's what we already have though. When people are actually willing to share that knowledge, which is what I said before. That's hardly what anyone would deem a "BBB" of sl. I DO think it's a very good thing and I happen to be one person who is glad others share their knowledge when they come across these things. I think it's VERY important that it's shared.

To have something like a BBB which will not only investigate issues, but also offer both a seal of approval, and otherwise, would require an awful lot of trust that just does not exist in sl. I don't belive it ever will, or even could. Too much human involvement with too much vested interest on both sides. I am all for the sharing of knowledge and really wish more people would do it. Else we can't expect anyone else to ever learn what it is they should be looking out for, imo. I am just not for some panel of people being called a "Sl BBB" or anything of the sort. I'd rather we offer information and allow people to draw conclusions from that. At least people can't claim ignorance once the knowledge is shared. Until it is, though, ignorance abounds, and I won't blame everyone in sl for being ignorant when the ones who could help that, choose not to.

 

[Spica Inventor]

Sometimes I wonder, are merchants really so very worried about IPR's or is it more about anti-competitive wishes and the notion that if better stuff enters SL they will make less money as a consequence lost to the 'professional' competition? Personally I think that if better stuff enters SL, it would attract many more peeps willing to spend more money and be a win win situation for everyone. ;-)

[Luna Bliss]

Spica Said:

"Sometimes I wonder, are merchants really so very worried about IPR's or is it more about anti-competitive wishes and the notion that if better stuff enters SL they will make less money as a consequence lost to the 'professional' competition? Personally I think that if better stuff enters SL, it would attract many more peeps willing to spend more money and be a win win situation for everyone. ;-) "

 

Hey great idea Spica...maybe LL can change the name from Second Life to Second Thief too!

[Pamela Galli]

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Spica Inventor wrote:

Sometimes I wonder, are merchants really so very worried about IPR's or is it more about anti-competitive wishes and the notion that if better stuff enters SL they will make less money as a consequence lost to the 'professional' competition? Personally I think that if better stuff enters SL, it would attract many more peeps willing to spend more money and be a win win situation for everyone. ;-)

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I don't have a problem with competing with any professional 3D artists that come to sell their work in SL. I DO have a problem with OTHER people ripping their work off and coming into SL to sell it. One is FAIR COMPETITION -- the other is not. 

And there is no "if" about it. That is what is happening, and what LL knew very well would happen, and yes, IMO, they do want SL to look more "professional" even if it means filling it with ripped professional content. But are those rippers going to be paying $1200 a month for four sims like I do? 

That tier, and the tier paid by other merchants, is not going to be paid if competition is stacked in favor of those who can import 20 ripped professionally made meshes in the time I can make one. 

[Deja Letov]

Pamela is there another "common" pinterest page other than one I saw earlier? I think the one from sl universe.

[Pamela Galli]

Not that I know of Deja. 

[Deja Letov]

Ok Ill just keep an eye on that one then.

[Lexi Zelin]

• Merchant sells only high quality mesh and no sculpted or standard prim items

I'm sorry but I don't know what THAT would have to do with anything But, I think anyone looking to purchase full perm meshes should RESEARCH first! Go to Turbosquid.com or Renderosity.com and have a look around, get familiar with the meshes on these sites so that you are less likely to purchase a stolen one in sl. Some of us DO have stores on these other sites but like mine on Turbosquid is the same name as in SL. 

There seems to be a new mesh store on the scene everyday now, becareful cause there' alot of people out there just selling annnnything to make a dollar and it's honestly just getting old Not to say every new mesh store is a hack but some are.

[Rya Nitely]

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Lexi Zelin wrote:

• Merchant sells only high quality mesh and no sculpted or standard prim items

I'm sorry but I don't know what THAT would have to do with anything

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It means absolutely nothing if you look at it on its own. There are many reputable stores that only sell high quality mesh, and it would be wrong to be suspicious if this was all. But, in maintaining some caution before just jumping in and buying stolen mesh and then reselling it, it is a good idea to have a look at various aspects of the merchant and store. This thread has given quite a few clues - none and even all of them aren't proof, but a guide. When you come across a store that demonstrates  many of these clues then you can take it from there - it's a buyer beware market.

It's no good if people say they had no idea it was stolen if they didn't look for any clues at all.

Now, the reason for this particular clue is that many (not all) of these new stores that have sprung up and continue to spring up are just that - Mesh Only. And that clue is a starting point to look further.

When buying full perm items to add to your merchandise, merchants need to use their own judgement and common sense. Clues are meant as a guide only - the final decision is up to the merchant/customer.

Research is the next step, and it could even be the first step (as you say). But you may not find that item, and that doesn't mean you're safe to buy it.

In being cautious it may be that you turn away from some legitimate items - and that is unfortunate, but it's the fault of the environment at the moment - this will happen when we're being cautious.

Now, my research has shown up many 3D sites - I have been focusing more on the free ones because I believe that this is where most of the stuff comes from, but even though I've spent ages reading the SLU thread and looking for these sites I still don't know all of them.

To give you an example, here's a typical mesh item on the MP. I've been looking at this item (say I want to purchase it). I highly suspect it's stolen since it demonstrates most of the clues given in this thread. I've done my research and I still can't find it. Maybe you've been at it longer, but most customers haven't been, and would be less knowledgeable than I am

 

If I can't find it should I be free to purchase it, despite all the clues that indicate it has most likely been stolen? I wonder how many people would be able to find where this items was ripped from.

[Pamela Galli]

I agree, although none of the clues (or all of them together) do not constitute proof of anything, they do warrant further investigation.

Yesterday I came across a store on the MP with 132 pages of listings. Over 1500 mesh items.  All full perm. No inworld store. No older content -- ie sculpts. Not beginner level stuff. 

The avi is from 2009. No picks. No groups. Just a link to the MP store.

Not proof of anything, but I would not touch any of it.  I am sure plenty of others will. 

 

This is the economic model LL wants. Inevitably, those who laboriously create their own content will simply not be able to compete because the playing field is not level. And because we will not be able to afford tier, we will give our land up. And LL will lose tier. And LL will lose their primary source of income. 

 

[Pamela Galli]

I was alerted to this update on the store that was widely outed in Pinterest as having ripped the contents of their store from 3d sites, and being mentioned in a well known thread here http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/63903-mesh-police-ripped-content-watch-59.html

 

They did take down some of their content. But they did not slink away in shame. Oh no. They went out and ripped more mesh and sold it at a premium. And continued to get praised by bloggers!

 

[Perrie Juran]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

I was alerted to this update on the store that was widely outed in Pinterest as having ripped the contents of their store from 3d sites, and being mentioned in a well known thread here

http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/63903-mesh-police-ripped-content-watch-59.html

 

They did take down some of their content. But they did not slink away in shame. Oh no. They went out and ripped more mesh and sold it at a premium. And continued to get praised by bloggers!

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Is anyone naming and shaming the Bloggers who do this anywhere?

I wonder if pointing them out here would be allowed?

[arloehn]

I came to this thread looking for more information about ripping etc. Despite some contentiousness, or maybe because of it, it's been a great, productive thread, I think. Thanks!