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Frawmusl

It is NOT O.K.!

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So I wanted to start a thread here to sort of share all our opinions on what we feel is NOT O.K. to do with mesh, and why. Feel free to debate and give opinions, but I'll start with a simple one and hope that people follow and give their opinion/reasoning behind why they feel that way.

 

It is NOT O.K. To use the highest model for all your LOD levels, there is a reason your LOD is reducing, I do not need to rez a 10,000 poly dress from 50 meters away at the highest detail! Thats just silly! Generate at the very least for your LOD!

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chrismignon McDonnell wrote:

Use your own blog/website for making money and give tutorial about mesh

There are a lot of places to get tutorials and lessons in creating models for free. http://www.blenderguru.com/  http://www.polycount.com/ tons on youtube, and if you ever need help http://www.blenderartists.org/forum/ users at blender artist are always willing to help.

 


steph Arnott wrote:

It not ok to have no trans items as no copy.

Added: And that is not just to do with mesh.

 

I am not sure how that has to deal with mesh, I am more looking for the creative aspect of mesh than the distribution ^.^

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For rigged garments: Duplicate/flip the full (usually already too high poly-) model to make the whole inside non-transparant. Just stick with the edges that will work just fine for most projects.

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beanster Potato wrote:

For rigged garments: Duplicate/flip the full (usually already too high poly-) model to make the whole inside non-transparant. Just stick with the edges that will work just fine for most projects.

That is called a solidify modifier in Blender/3dsMax but yes it is a horrible practice, Creating the edges that you need and then collapsing in-ward is a much more efficient way to create for SL

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Efficient unwrapping / reasonable texture footprint

I see teh most horrible unwraps, even from creators who I thought were experienced. Often, the unwrap doesn't even cover half of the texture space. And then, most would also go with the maximum texture resolution of 1024 × 1024 px for each and every small piece. I often see objects that would use 8 × 1024 × 1204 px texures for one single mesh object, where each texture ist mostly pitch black (unused).

People need to realize that this does not only increase lag (because you need to download all of these textures), but also is a heavy burden for your graphics card (they all have to be loaded into memory, they all have to be rendered and recalculated in real time).

That's one of the biggest (but sadly also one of the most common) No-Gos I see in SL.

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It is NOT O.K...... To have zillions of damned polys in a shoe mesh (or ANYTHING for that matter). I'm not talking about slightly overdetailed meshes... I'm talking about STUPIDLY high poly counts.

It's a pity I can't actually name and shame here. I've recently come across probably the worst example of excessive modeling I've yet seen in SL. A shoe where every MINISCULE detail was modeled in geometry, down to the holes in the leather for brogueing (and THESE had insane amounts of polys for those tiny details too). In wireframe mode, the shoe is practically SOLID looking due to the denseness of the mesh. Not to mention the changeable sole styles which are all part of the main mesh, visible via flipping the alphas on and off, so all that insane polycount is there all the time. I would assume these had maxxed out LODs as well, as I couldn't see any kind of LOD swapping happening when I zoomed out. Ouch.

The demo was about 262LI (for ONE shoe rezzed on the ground). So wear a pair of those lag monsters and you will drag down everyone else's framerates around you. How polite.

Most of the other items on display at this location are just as terrible for polycounts. My framerates would drop to a slideshow when I zoomed in closer on some of the furniture there. Ironic, considering this location boasts the best of SL mesh etc.....

So much for mesh education. The fashionistas just don't want to learn. Sometimes I think it's a waste of time posting advice on this forum. No wonder I've given up these days...... Bah.

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It's not OK to get an inworld mesh building tool  (where you pick up the collada file for your build from a website) and feel there is now no reason to learn a 3D modeling program.

 

This is not to say that there isn't a place for inworld mesh constructors. They are excellent for doing a quick prototype that sets the proportions of a build that will fit somewhere and to have a rough outline on one's "canvas" to begin modeling with. I've found one that is extremely useful in my workflow and it can cut development time almost in half on architectural builds.

 

But there is no substitute for optimizing one's model within a 3D modeling program and that goes double for any production models.

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It's not OK to download other people's creations from 3D model websites and then sell them as your own, and then feel that there is now no reason to learn a 3D program or pay attention to any of the other advise in this thread because your work is done until the next opportunity to rip off a 3D model and put it up for sale as your own work and then having the nerve to add your TOS and EULA to it. This is not OK.

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Rya Nitely wrote:

It's not OK to download other people's creations from 3D model websites and then sell them as your own, and then feel that there is now no reason to learn a 3D program or pay attention to any of the other advise in this thread because your work is done until the next opportunity to rip off a 3D model and put it up for sale as your own work and then having the nerve to add your TOS and EULA to it. This is not OK.

I lol'd because of the forum posts earlier and how truly true this is. See it way too often! Kudos :P

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Not okay with whom, tho?  Since a lot of huge stores have popped up that do all these not okay things, including being 100% ripped, and there are no consequences, then in practice it is all okay.

There needs to be a Consumer Reports or Protection for mesh, because consumers don't know what to do look for -- if they care, which I imagine many do not. Most creators don't, consumers even less.  But that would mean that people would have to comb through hundreds of stores and 3D sites looking for matches, or go to stores looing at things in wireframe. 

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Merchants/Can-I-sell-Turbosquid-stuff-in-a-store/td-p/2103441

So maybe these things should be, called"not considerate" instead of not okay.  

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Thats sort of the attitude I hate with all this

"It doesn't matter if theres no punishment for it" 
Well it does matter and it shouldn't be allowed yet it is. So shouldn't the community do something as a whole if the devs aren't? Its as simple as reviewing that its stolen and not to buy or telling your friends X name steals and resells

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I am going to make a very risky statement and say:
it is not okay to leave your common sense at the door when entering the subject 3D modeling - just the same as with any other subject on this planet ^.-

A lot of the no-no's come from having no knowldege, searching for shortcuts and being overly eager and impatient to create things like this, and often the hope for fast money.

I think we can break the answer of your question down to this- and answer instead 'what IS ok?':

- Use your common sense - means: do not steal, rip, copy, and know that there are never long lasting shortcuts when it
  comes to these  matters
- Learn - and be able to know how and what to create in a responsible way for the choosen environment / engine
- Have will & patience  - those always pay off in the end


And PS.- to some of the former answers of others: even if there is not always a punishment directly following up upon bad actions, you won't make much money that way.. people recognize it, people talk and spread the word and critics and stop buying. Plus i have to say the most 'rips' are made by people not being capabale of making own things, means they don't even know how to handle those rips correctly - thus the products lack quality and usability and are not worth buying - which consumers generally figure pretty fast.

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It is definitely crazy when an avatar has the same LODs for every slot. It shows the mesh creator's own ignorance. For christ sakes, the uploader will even reduce it for you.

I'll agree with most people here, but I also feel that most of these issues are a result of LL's lackluster approach, or ignorance of the issues. Just take a look at the Marketplace. Do you see any relevant info on the products pages that could even give you the slightest glue about the mesh model's specs? Goto any other site which distributes meshes. You'll see every spec about that model, even a wireframe of it. They even have which program it was created in. SL tho, we don't show the customer anything relevant to mesh models. The largest site that sells 3d content in the world, has no clue what is relevant on the Marketplace. That is simply a fact.

If on the side of every product on the marketplace, we simply had a slot for every relevant spec for a mesh, even the ARC, or whatever it is called now, then consumers would more quickly get familiar with what is a "good" mesh and what is not. Those mesh sellers that won't post the specs, and have totally empty information on the side, will be looked at differently than those that do have that info. The knowledge of each mesh creator or seller will be wideopen for all to see. LL has a system for giving each item a score, yet very few people even know about it, beyond Land Impact. Why isn't there a slot to put that score for a build on the marketplace.

I understand people are going to argue that LL's scoring system isn't quite accurate or the ARC thing doesn't take this or that into consideration, but F all that. You aren't helping any1 by hiding things like ARC and the display cost. Those of us that understand mesh can still get a good ARC score or Display Cost score. Yes there are rare exceptions, but these systems like the ARC and Display Cost make it easier for the everyday person to understand.

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Yes but probably 99% of those purchasing mesh items in SL don't care.  Their questions are not what is my rendering cost?  What is the creation tool?  What is the topology like? etc.

Their questions are usually:-

Does it look good?

Can I afford it?

(for items on land, What's the land impact?)

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Rya Nitely wrote:

It's not OK to download other people's creations from 3D model websites and then sell them as your own, and then feel that there is now no reason to learn a 3D program or pay attention to any of the other advise in this thread because your work is done until the next opportunity to rip off a 3D model and put it up for sale as your own work and then having the nerve to add your TOS and EULA to it. This is not OK.

Look at the vehicle section on the Marketplace.. 90% of those vehicles are all stolen and people get away with it.. What's worse is when you tell the person they are blatantly stolen they completely deny it. For example I saw a guy's car with the Need For Speed logo on there and pointed it out, he still completely denied it was stolen.

The main problem and why stolen 3D models are selling so well is because of the consumers. They do not care if the product is stolen or lag's, etc. all they care about is if the product looks good or not. I never think this will be properly addressed therefore the marketplace will continue filling up with stolen items.

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Yurii Velinov wrote:

The main problem and why stolen 3D models are selling so well is because of the consumers.

You are blaming innocent people.  Most consumers have no idea that they should even be concerned about buying stolen or unoptimized merchandise when it's being sold on the official LL Marketplace website and why should they?  It's not their job to do so.  LL, by allowing this type of product to be sold on their site, give these things the illusion of legitimacy and that's usually good enough for the common user.

There are those that know and don't care, but, I believe that a much larger portion of the population have no idea and, if they did, would not willingly support it.  Placing the blame on them is misguided and adds nothing toward the alleviation the situation.

...Dres

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Sassy Romano wrote:

Yes but probably 99% of those purchasing mesh items in SL don't care.  Their questions are not what is my rendering cost?  What is the creation tool?  What is the topology like? etc.

Their questions are usually:-

Does it look good?

Can I afford it?

(for items on land, What's the land impact?)

Well, what many people do do is comparison shop. If they see 2 things around the same price, they will check out both. If 1 is all filled in with the appropriate info, and the other is not, given the quality is similar, they will choose the 1 with all the info. At least, that is what I'd do.

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RE: "Use your own blog/website for making money and give tutorial about mesh"

First let me say that I neither have a blog, nor do I make money via tutorials about mesh on any website. However I see nothing wrong with the practice.

I have in the past put together both written and video tutorials  re: mesh in  SL (in my case for free) and it is extremely time consuming. A good tutorial (and I've failed so far to make a really good one) takes a great deal of  time, skill and a talent for teaching and is as worthy of compensation as any digital shoe or skin sold in SL.  You are free to take advantage of all the free tutorials on the web including those provided this forum.  Those with the drive and talent  who feel that their SL time is best spent teaching vs. running a commercial operation in SL or via the SL marketplace or renting land, etc. are as deserving of  compensation as any other creator.  

As it is, when you attend free classes in SL there is a reasonable expectation that you tip your instructor.  You can get away with not tipping, but that would be rude and inconsiderate.  As long as commercial enterprise  exist in SL  charging for any legitimate service is acceptable.   

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Domsson Lean wrote:

Efficient unwrapping / reasonable texture footprint

I see teh most horrible unwraps, even from creators who I thought were experienced. Often, the unwrap doesn't even cover half of the texture space. And then, most would also go with the maximum texture resolution of 1024 × 1024 px for each and every small piece. I often see objects that would use 8 × 1024 × 1204 px texures for one single mesh object, where each texture ist mostly pitch black (unused).

People need to realize that this does not only increase lag (because you need to download all of these textures), but also is a heavy burden for your graphics card (they all have to be loaded into memory, they all have to be rendered and recalculated in real time).

That's one of the biggest (but sadly also one of the most common) No-Gos I see in SL.

1 thing to consider here, which I didn't quite realize until I was working on my avatar, is that sometimes that texture with all the empty space is like that to save data. I know it sounds weird, but let me explain. I'll give my own example, but this goes for almost anything made with mesh that has texture options.

I made an avatar, and it uses 2 textures for the whole avatar. All the different UV unwraps are jammed together using as much of the space as possible, with each texture being the appropriate size for the layout. When I started thinking about eye color options, I realized that if I just mixed and matched the skin color options with the eye color options, then the customer could potentially be wearing twice as much texture data than I intended, 3 times more if they use 2 different eye colors. It makes more sense to just make totally separate eye textures. Yes, I could've taken the eyes UV map out and put it on it's own map, but just blacking out everything but the eyes on the avatar texture to make each eye color isn't wasting much data. The eye color textures, with only 2 eyes in the corner of the texture, are only a tiny amount of data, and it is better to allow people to change them this way, versus using textures with everything on them and tons of data.

I hope that made sense.

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If you use a separate texture for the eyes, it doesn't need to have the black space. It can just be a smaller texture. So if your eye fits in, say, a 64x64 section of your 1024x1024 map, then you can use a 64x64 texture instead of the 1024x1024 with all that black space. All you have to do is scale the eye up by 16x in the UV map (it's a different texture, so it can overlap the rest of the UV map). The pixel density on the textured eye will not be changed. However well the black space compresses, the file with the extra black space will always be bigger than that of the 64x64 texture. Furthermore, I believe most graphics cards will decompress the whole texture before they can use it, in which case the black space will be a huge waste gpu memory. Maybe someone who knows about gpu internals can confirm or refute that.

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We are talking kilobytes here. I know people want to save data every place they can, but there are areas that can save much more than a few kbs. I can't use a 16 x 16 as it is 2 eyes, not 1. I also have 2 legs and 2 arms. Some people would say that is a waste, but yet I got them all on 2 textures. So, my point is that it is all relevant to everything else you are doing. I'm actually boxing my avatar up right now, and I'm certainly not going to rework UV maps just to save 10kbs. That said, I have to make a female version, and I'll likely just do the eyes totally separate. Or maybe, all the makeup on 1 map. We'll see.

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