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It's time we stand up against LL and tell them they need to make SL far for everyone


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GoldxRazer wrote:

Finally someone that can see what LL is doing that needs to be stopped.

What?  Stopped from earning a profit?

What you don't know, what I don't know and what as far as I know no one here knows is what LL's profit margin is.  I'm certain it is high but I don't know. 

When you divide LL's total cost of doing business by the number of SIMs you then have their true cost per SIM. 

None of us know how much that is. 

What if they were actually losing money on every SIM when they were absorbing the VAT?

While I am right in line with everyone who thinks SIMs are overpriced, the truth is I don't have the information to back it up.

 

 

eta clarity

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GoldxRazer wrote:

LL are
thieves
all they want is your money and they don't care if they don't run a
fair
system.
If
you're not in the USA you have to pay more for a full sim.
In
the USA it's $295 in the UK it's $354, how is that
fair?
how can we all enjoy SL if they
charge
different prices
?
if someone
outside
the USA want's to run
an
estate they can't as
they're
out priced. this needs to be changed, we all need to stand up to them and make them make SL
fair
for everyone.

I think i FIFY.

To be honest, I don't feel it is fair that i have to pay for your taxes. We tossed your tea in the hahbah. Piss off.

/me marches around chanting.

"No taxation without representation! No taxation without representation! No taxation without representation!"

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Gawd this ol' chestnut again.

OK basic European argument is this...

US sales tax is already built into LL's pricing.  Therefore, Europeans are paying a US sales tax that they are not liable for and on top of that have to pay their own countries VAT (the equivalent of sales tax) , which they are liable for.  The argument has been had many times and it's sadly lost.  That's why (I think) there are no land barons who are not US, but I would be happy to be proved wrong and know that somebody's found a way to compete.

This was brought about by the enactment of an EU law, which was an honest attempt to stop US companies (primarily digital sales/services) who sold their wares in Europe VAT free and basing their nominal company's HQ in the lowest sales tax states in the US while European companies sellling in the US had a blanket (I forget the big % figure) imposed upon them.  Obviously not fair and another US trade barrier that had to be countered.  

So the losers are European SL users, but it's reassuring to know that US businesses and citizens are paying into the fund that provides Europeans with FREE healthcare while US SL users have to spend their profits (if any) on keeping themselves alive.

Life is fairground, just make sure you're in the queue for the best ride and don't grumble that other queues seem to be moving quicker; it may not be the best ride in the park.

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Malanya wrote:


Czari Zenovka wrote:


Malanya wrote:


Dilbert Dilweg wrote:

LOL your government rapes you for vat and you expect the Americans to foot the bill. ROFLMAO :matte-motes-nerdy:

I laughed so hard I almost lost my drink.

@ OP The BIG BAD Americans LOL, don't deal with an American company then. Easy. Do people really understand what they type? There really is no words for how ignorant this is.

Considering the OP states he/she is from England, I'm assuming that English is his/her first language...although I could be going out on a limb there.  I'm wondering if he speaks some dialect like Cockney that doesn't sound at all like English, to my ear at least, because I had to push some words together and take some literary license with the spelling to understand the OP.  :matte-motes-wink:

I believe you may going out on a limb, don't ever assume, you should know that
;)
I just skimmed over tbh, really didn't try to understand the post after the "unfair land prices" I don't want to pay $295 USD without other taxes for my sim so who can I complain to... anyone see a red button here?

Well see that's the thing..the OP didn't say "unfair land prices" - he/she kept talking about pricing not being "far" - so I had to insert a letter to make sense of it all. 

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


GoldxRazer wrote:

LL are
thieves
all they want is your money and they don't care if they don't run a
fair
system.
If
you're not in the USA you have to pay more for a full sim.
In
the USA it's $295 in the UK it's $354, how is that
fair?
how can we all enjoy SL if they
charge
different prices
?
if someone
outside
the USA want's to run
an
estate they can't as
they're
out priced. this needs to be changed, we all need to stand up to them and make them make SL
fair
for everyone.

I think i FIFY.

To be honest, I don't feel it is fair that i have to pay for your taxes. We tossed your tea in the hahbah. Piss off.

/me marches around chanting.

"No taxation without representation! No taxation without representation! No taxation without representation!"

I think you and I are the only ones who had to figure out what is supposedly English.

Adding: Taxation without representation is tyranny!!

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Sy Beck wrote:

Gawd this ol' chestnut again.

OK basic European argument is this...

US sales tax is already built into LL's pricing.
 Therefore, Europeans are paying a US sales tax that they are not liable for and on top of that have to pay their own countries VAT (the equivalent of sales tax) , which they are liable for.  The argument has been had many times and it's sadly lost.  That's why (I think) there are no land barons who are not US, but I would be happy to be proved wrong and know that somebody's found a way to compete.

 

How so? There's no "US sales tax" levied on a national level. There are national excise taxes on a handful of items like alcohol, tobacco and gasoline but they don't apply to anything SL related that I know of. Sales taxes are strictly a state or local tax and are invoiced separately instead of being included in the purchase price. A European buying something in a US state that's subject to sales tax would be liable for that tax the same way that a person from a neighboring US state would.

In a situation where a purchaser in one state makes a purchase by mail or Internet from a business in another state, the purchaser is expected to pay the tax rate of their home state instead of the tax rate of the state where that business is. Mail or online businesses only collect sales taxes if they have a physical presence in the state where the purchaser is - otherwise the purchaser is expected to pay the sales tax on the remote purchase with their state tax returns (not that the average person ever DOES, mind you.)

(If you think all that's confusing, do NOT, I repeat do NOT, move to Missouri. The city I live in not only has a higher sales tax than the rest of the state, it VARIES DEPENDING ON WHAT PART OF THE CITY YOU'RE IN.)

Finally, sales taxes are almost never levied on services, only on the purchases of physical goods. I don't see how any of the base tier fee could be considered a tax that non-US citizens wouldn't be liable for.

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Sy Beck wrote:

Do you pay sales tax for your SL use?  If not who's absorbing it?  And if they [LL] are absorbing it for you why are they not for everybody else?

LL is not absorbing sales taxes for Theresa, nor anyone else. As she said, there is no federal sales tax.

If required, Theresa would pay her state sales tax to her state's treasury. It's much the same for purchases from Amazon. They sell me products for less than I can obtain them locally because they are not (yet) obligated to collect the 5.6% Wisconsin tax on sales to me. I am, however, obilgated to pay sales tax out of state purchases. So I must keep track of my receipts and submit the appropriate taxes to the Wisconsin State Treasury every April 15.

I'm afraid your 'ol chestnut is actually a red herring, Sy.

ETA: For states in which LL has a physical presence, they would generally be obligated to collect the state sales tax at time of purchase. That would be added as a line item in the invoice and so not absorbed by LL. LL simply acts as the collection and transfer agent for the sales tax. There are some states that require any out of state business doing business with residents of their state to collect and transfer sales tax, and there have been efforts to establish that requirement as a matter of federal law, but it would not be the federal government collecting taxes, as there is no federal sales tax to collect.

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Sy Beck wrote:

Do you pay sales tax for your SL use?  If not who's absorbing it?  And if they [LL] are absorbing it for you why are they not for everybody else?

There's nothing to absorb - it's a service instead of a product, therefore not subject to sales tax in any US state that I'm familiar with.

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Do you realize that as US citizens we pay tax on "certain" services? If I buy something out of my state I may not be taxed, only people that live in the particular state would. It's more complicated than you think. try Inworldz maybe they absorb all fees for non US people.

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I thank you for bringing that to everyone's attention. I see others have pointed out that there is no National Sales Tax—for the love of God! Isn't the Income Tax bad enough?—so I'll just go with the tea tax.

I've an ancestor who arrived in Boston in the 1770's as a teen. Got excited with all the commotion and was at least a member of the Sons of Liberty, but not one who made a lot of noise from all appearances. His saved memoirs/letters indicate he actually witnessed the Boston 'Massacre' (bit of an overstatement but then newspeople never change). A vanity-published biography by one of his grandsons told how his sons all claimed he was at the Boston Tea Party, The ancestor himself made no such claim, but in fact he did move in pretty impressive circles, especially in the years after the war.

I've always liked this dramatic retelling of the Boston Tea Party story.

 

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

ETA: For states in which LL has a physical presence,
they would generally be obligated to collect the state sales tax at time of purchase.
That would be added as a line item in the invoice and so not absorbed by LL. LL simply acts as the collection and transfer agent for the sales tax. There are some states that require any out of state business doing business with residents of their state to collect and transfer sales tax, and there have been efforts to establish that requirement as a matter of federal law, but it would not be the federal government collecting taxes, as there is no federal sales tax to collect.


Re. bolded, So why don't they?  Or why aren't people in those states complaining that they are being taxed when people in other states aren't? Or are LL just absorbing the cost?

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:


Sy Beck wrote:

Do you pay sales tax for your SL use?  If not who's absorbing it?  And if they [LL] are absorbing it for you why are they not for everybody else?

There's nothing to absorb - it's a service instead of a product, therefore not subject to sales tax in any US state that I'm familiar with.

See Maddy's reply

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Malanya wrote:

Do you realize that as US citizens we pay tax on "certain" services? If I buy something out of my state I may not be taxed, only people that live in the particular state would. It's more complicated than you think. try Inworldz maybe they absorb all fees for non US people.

Interesting, InWorldz hasn't seen a need to differentiate charges between countries though it's based in the US.  Likewise Avination, Kitely and...I'll say all others till somebody says different.

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Sy Beck wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:

ETA: For states in which LL has a physical presence,
they would generally be obligated to collect the state sales tax at time of purchase.
That would be added as a line item in the invoice and so not absorbed by LL. LL simply acts as the collection and transfer agent for the sales tax. There are some states that require any out of state business doing business with residents of their state to collect and transfer sales tax, and there have been efforts to establish that requirement as a matter of federal law, but it would not be the federal government collecting taxes, as there is no federal sales tax to collect.


Re. bolded, So why don't they?  Or why aren't people in those states complaining that they are being taxed when people in other states aren't? Or are LL just absorbing the cost?

So far, services like LL's are not taxed by any state (as far as I know). There have been rumblings about taxing "virtual goods", but nothing has happened yet. If there is anything LL offers that can be taxed by a state, and if that state has a sales tax agreement with California (where LL resides), then LL would add the applicable sales tax on the invoice at time of purchase. There would still be no cost for LL to absorb. They would add on the tax, collect it, then pass it on to the appropriate state treasury.

In cases where there is no interstate agreement compelling LL to collect the sales tax, it would be the responsibility of the purchaser to pay it. That has always been a cat and mouse collection game, with the bulk of the owed sales tax never being collected. It has only been in the last few years that Wisconsin added some teeth to the sales tax laws by making failure to pay tax on out-of-state purchases is a criminal offense, and requiring large sellers like Amazon to provide purchase logs for all sales inside the state. The Wisconsin cat is now wearing night vision goggles.

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Sy Beck wrote:


Theresa Tennyson wrote:


Sy Beck wrote:

Do you pay sales tax for your SL use?  If not who's absorbing it?  And if they [LL] are absorbing it for you why are they not for everybody else?

There's nothing to absorb - it's a service instead of a product, therefore not subject to sales tax in any US state that I'm familiar with.

See Maddy's reply

My reply does not contradict Theresa's. So far as I know, nothing I purchase from LL qualifies for sales tax in Wisconsin. I'm not familiar with the sales tax laws of other states. If there is a state that would tax LL's services, it would happen as I stated, with LL either collecting the tax and forwarding it to the state, or the state requiring the purchaser to remit the sales tax at the end of the year.

I know of no scenario in which LL would absorb sales taxes. They are however, like any other corporation or employer, subject to various other taxes, including taxes on their own purchases of goods, payroll taxes, taxes on corporate profits, etc.

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Sy Beck wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:

ETA: For states in which LL has a physical presence,
they would generally be obligated to collect the state sales tax at time of purchase.
That would be added as a line item in the invoice and so not absorbed by LL. LL simply acts as the collection and transfer agent for the sales tax. There are some states that require any out of state business doing business with residents of their state to collect and transfer sales tax, and there have been efforts to establish that requirement as a matter of federal law, but it would not be the federal government collecting taxes, as there is no federal sales tax to collect.


Re. bolded, So why don't they?  Or why aren't people in those states complaining that they are being taxed when people in other states aren't? Or are LL just absorbing the cost?

Maddy was explaining how things would work IF THEY WERE SELLING GOODS INSTEAD OF SERVICES. Let's say they start selling SL mousepads along with regions. If they sold someone in California the use of a region for $295 and a mousepad for $5.00 the total bill would be in the neighborhood of $300.41 - $295 for the region, $5.00 for the mousepad and $0.41 for sales tax ON THE MOUSEPAD AND ONLY THE MOUSEPAD. The $0.41 would be listed separately. If they were selling the same package to Maddy her bill would be $300 even. She would, in theory, then be expected to send the state of Wisconsin $0.28 in tax for the purchase of the mousepad.

Also, in the US businesses serve strictly as tax collectors when it comes to sales tax - they're legally obligated to collect it but it's the consumer who actually pays. Businesses actually can MAKE money by collecting taxes because states give them a rebate to pay for the collection service. There's a court action in Pennsylvania because if you use a "two-for-one" coupon at Wal-Mart there they'll only charge you the price of one item but they collect sales tax for the sale of two.

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:


Sy Beck wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:

ETA: For states in which LL has a physical presence,
they would generally be obligated to collect the state sales tax at time of purchase.
That would be added as a line item in the invoice and so not absorbed by LL. LL simply acts as the collection and transfer agent for the sales tax. There are some states that require any out of state business doing business with residents of their state to collect and transfer sales tax, and there have been efforts to establish that requirement as a matter of federal law, but it would not be the federal government collecting taxes, as there is no federal sales tax to collect.


Re. bolded, So why don't they?  Or why aren't people in those states complaining that they are being taxed when people in other states aren't? Or are LL just absorbing the cost?

Maddy was explaining how things would work IF THEY WERE SELLING GOODS INSTEAD OF SERVICES. Let's say they start selling SL mousepads along with regions. If they sold someone in California the use of a region for $295 and a mousepad for $5.00 the total bill would be in the neighborhood of $300.41 - $295 for the region, $5.00 for the mousepad and $0.41 for sales tax ON THE MOUSEPAD AND ONLY THE MOUSEPAD. The $0.41 would be listed separately. If they were selling the same package to Maddy her bill would be $300 even. She would, in theory, then be expected to send the state of Wisconsin $0.28 in tax for the purchase of the mousepad.

Also, in the US businesses serve strictly as tax collectors when it comes to sales tax - they're legally obligated to collect it but it's the consumer who actually pays. Businesses actually can MAKE money by collecting taxes because states give them a rebate to pay for the collection service. There's a court action in Pennsylvania because if you use a "two-for-one" coupon at Wal-Mart there they'll only charge you the price of one item but they collect sales tax for the sale of two.

Oooh, I just did some reading and see that Hawaii, New Mexico and South Dakota have started taxing services.

http://www.bizfilings.com/toolkit/sbg/tax-info/sales-taxes/sales-tax-in-service-industries.aspx

So, for SL residents in those states, I suppose they should be recording their expenditures and including them on their state tax forms every April. Even if those states have tax agreements with California, I wouldn't be surprised if LL isn't collecting taxes or reporting sales. The complexities of following every business in every state are just beyond the capabilities of state governments.

 

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VAT is the compulsory version of the US Sales Tax, which as orl fules do kno is pretty much a voluntary tax on internet-originated transactions in the same way VAT was before the Euro governments got their act together to put the kybosh on my nice little business of moving organisations that sold electronic "goods" to a server in Jersey (no, not the New one, the original one) because they had a zero rate of VAT there even though they were subject to the protection of civilised business legislation in most other ways.

I am sure the USA will catch up with the UK eventually.

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Everyone has access to read the charges and stuff. Even english people.

If I had to pay those sorts of charges I would not be a premium member.

It's posssible you may feel a little hoodwinked cause of comprehension issues. 

That would be totally understandable.

Any transaction online should be evaluated with a caring friend, just to be safe.

There is open sim if you wanted to play with it for free. (some of it is I think).

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@ Sy

That argument is completely wrong. There is no US sales tax and for most people no state sales tax.  Internet sales are exempt from sales tax, unless the SELLER has a brick and mortar presence in a particular residents state.  Then the resident must pay the tax, if services are taxable, when they file their state sales tax if the internet company doesn't collect it.  For me, no tax is due for anything I purchase from LL, not only because LL has no physical presence in my state,  but because it is a service and not taxable in my state..  So Europeans have never paid more for their sims because LL subsidized US sales tax.  Even if they had, sales tax is a fraction of the VAT.  In my state sales tax is 4.5% vs. the 20% for VAT.

@OP 

 What about all those years that LL subsidized the VAT tax for Euros so that Euros actually paid LESS for the actual sim.  $236 without VAT vs.. $295 for me .  To be 'far' I think LL owes me a BIG refund because they should have given me an equivalent subsidy and charged me less for all of my sims. $59 x 12 months is $708 per year per sim  So by your logic they owe me personally thousands of dollars.

If you have a complaint take it up with your government who imposes the tax. It is ignorant to blame LL or US residents for this.

LL is also a for profit company and not a charity they can charge what they want and either you pay it or leave it. Life is not fair. Don't expect LL to lose money to make it 'far' for you because YOUR government charges you tax.

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