How to deal with annoying neighbours, appropriately?

[Nyll Bergbahn]

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Melita Magic wrote:

Yes, I know that. 

I still do not think it applies to what someone does on their own land. That cannot disturb someone else's peace. Not unless it is some obvious form of intentional griefing, or slops over the land border.

How is it griefing to use one's own land in a manner allowed for within SL TOS? 

Fireworks have been sold on the marketplace for nearly as long as SL has existed, including, according to one fireworks maker, to some Lindens.

I'll give up trying to explain that excerpt's subtext, since that's going to be futile.

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I'm clear as to how that clause is designed to operate. It applies to all aspects of Second Life, not just scheduled events. Perrie has explained it so no need to repeat what he said, and if  am reading your comment, "Yes, I know that" correctly, you now agree with this. It's very clear anyway from one of the opening paragraphs in the Community Standards, namely, "All Second Life Community Standards apply to all areas of Second Life, the Second Life Forums, and the Second Life Website."

You're perfectly entitled to read whatever subtext you wish into the Disturbing the Peace Community Standard and believe you can do what you want on your own land without it applying. I just don't happen to agree with this interpretation and you more or less demolished your own argument with the proviso "That cannot disturb someone else's peace. Not unless it is some obvious form of intentional griefing, or slops over the land border." Yes, exactly, if it affects neighbours.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter what interpretation we put on this CS. Linden Lab will adjudicate if an Abuse Report is submitted citing Disturbing the Peace or indeed any other CS. Linden Lab is the ultimate arbitrator on what any resident can or cannot do in Second Life.

[Freya Mokusei]

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Melita Magic wrote:

Thank  you and I agree it is best to try to save the AR for the real crises.

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You're welcome. My statements follow several long terms observing and involved within management for medium-to-large estates, and frequent contact with all links on the AR chain. Everything a neighbour does affects other neighbours (blocking out light, sounds, particles, covering sea views, blahblah), but SL land owners have no right to dictate standards for other landowners on their own land.

Landowners are guaranteed no view, no tranquility, no right to govern anyone elses choices for their land. So long as there is no encroachment and other parts of the CS are not broken (advertising, disgusting imagery, deliberate/obvious protests or hatred) this is not a Governance issue.

It's an important cornerstone of our freedom to create.

[Phil Deakins]

I beg to differ. I know that the word 'encroachment' is used about objects, but sound also encroaches. However, I'm not going to be picky about a particular word - although I could be.

Nobody has a right to have whatever sounds they want on their own land if the sounds travel to other parcels. You are quite right that people can have what they want (within the ToS) on their own land, but that's only true as long as it stays on their own land. The firework sounds didn't stay on the owner's land. They strayed onto other people's land, and that was out of order. The parts of the ToS that have been quoted in this thread make that very clear. In addition, the OP pays LL monthly tier for the land, but while the annoying sounds from next door continued, LL was not delivering what she was paying for because of them.

Since the owner didn't respond or do anything, even though he'd been logged in, it was definitely something to AR, and it looks like the AR was dealt with correctly.

[Freya Mokusei]

I'm not going to argue about definitions, nor the possibility that the AR was taken seriously.

Sound can be limited by parcel (by either party), no violation occured. Paying tier does not guarantee standards of service, lol.

[Phil Deakins]

The fireworks owner didn't limit the sounds, and he left them going for more than 60 hours. That was against the ToS and merited an AR.

I didn't know that I can set something to prevent outside sound coming onto my parcel, so that nobody on my parcel can hear them. Is that right? Nevertheless, the fireworks owner was in breach of the ToS and merited an AR.

[Freya Mokusei]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

That was against the ToS and merited an AR.

the fireworks owner was in breach of the ToS and merited an AR.

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Repetition is fun but fails to prove your point.

Improve your understanding and maybe we'll talk again.

[Phil Deakins]

There's no need to be snarky.

If and when I need to improve my understanding about preventing sounds from entering my land, I will. In the meantime, you were mistaken about the topic of this thread. The fireworks owner was in breach of the ToS, and deserved to be ARed - as is evident, not only by the ToS portions that were quoted here, but also by the fact the LL dealt with the fireworks as a result of the AR.

And you were also mistaken about what a person is allowed to do with his/her own land.

[Freya Mokusei]

It's not very honest to present your opinions - and your interpretation of the ToS - as fact.

[Phil Deakins]

lol. I've been perfectly honest

[Dresden Ceriano]

There's no need for ARs or notecards or unnecessary drama, just go to About Land/Sounds, put a check in the box next to, "Restrict gesture and object sounds to this parcel," and voila, no more firework sounds... see how simple that was?

...Dres

ETA:  For those that don't understand... when you restrict sounds to your parcel, it works both ways... sound doesn't get out and sound doesn't get in.

[Freya Mokusei]

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

There's no need for ARs or notecards or unnecessary drama, just go to About Land/Sounds, put a check in the box next to, "Restrict gesture and object sounds to this parcel," and voila, no more firework sounds... see how simple that was?

...Dres

ETA:  For those that don't understand... when you restrict sounds to your parcel, it works both ways... sound doesn't get out and sound doesn't get in.

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Prizes for you! I kinda said this in post #3 of this thread (and post 20-something), but I suppose listening to such advice wouldn't have made this thread as entertaining.

Maybe people will listen to you? It is not LL's job to protect users when they choose to suffer.

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

There's no need for ARs or notecards or unnecessary drama, just go to About Land/Sounds, put a check in the box next to, "Restrict gesture and object sounds to this parcel," and voila, no more firework sounds... see how simple that was?

...Dres

ETA:  For those that don't understand... when you restrict sounds to your parcel, it works both ways... sound doesn't get out and sound doesn't get in.

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Prizes for you! I kinda said this in post #3 of this thread (and post 20-something), but I suppose listening to such advice wouldn't have made this thread as entertaining.

Maybe people will listen to you? It is not LL's job to protect users when they

choose

to suffer.

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I know that... that's why I added the ETA, because it seemed as if people just skimmed right over that useful bit of information which you'd provided.

I once had a neighbor with a skyboxed art installation on her parcel that, every ten seconds or so, would drop a light bulb down to her land.  I had no issue with it at first, but after a while, hearing that light bulb hit the ground repeatedly threatened to drive me insane (alright... more insane).  So I restricted sound to my parcel and that was that... my insanity level was intact.

...Dres

[Freya Mokusei]

Vires in numerus.

[Coby Foden]

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

... just go to About Land/Sounds, put a check in the box next to, "Restrict gesture and object sounds to this parcel," and voila, no more firework sounds...

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How about the fireworks particles? Those were rather annoying too with constant bright flashing going on. I'm interested to know can the disturbed neighbour do anything about them - except for turning particles off in their viewer?

Let's suppose that they might have wanted to have a romantic evening in candle light with their loved one - :heart: :matte-motes-big-grin: - so turning particles off from the viewer would not have been a solution. I went to that place and I noticed that blocking the fireworks emitter did nothing at all. Which I found very strange.

 

[Perrie Juran]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

It's not very honest to present your opinions - and your interpretation of the ToS - as fact.

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What are you doing about other forms of land extortion and harassment?

This concerns us very much, and we'll be doing all we can to remove this behavior. Deliberately misleading other Residents (for example, with donut-shaped parcels) is unacceptable. You can expect that any practices that negatively impact the Mainland will be looked at and stopped where possible.

If you're engaged in something that clearly has a negative and widespread impact on the Mainland experience, we will request that you stop.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Policy_on_ad_farms_and_network_advertisers

 

I think that this pretty clearly states that LL will look at and make a judgement call in these situations.

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Coby Foden wrote:

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

Have you tried to derender the object producing the fireworks?  If you use firestorm right click on it and hit More until you see Derender click it and then Black List.  It will disappear along with the fireworks.

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I went to see there the annoyance. OMG!  :smileyfrustrated:

Using Firestorm: Derender just derenders the thing. The show goes on - naturally.

Then I blocked the thing and also the box beside it. They appeared into the black list - but the show nevertheless goes on. :smileysurprised:

Dunno what's going on with this thing. Usually blacklisting the source of annoyance does work. I couldn't spot any hidden object either which might have been the real source.

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Not everyone uses Firestorm. Nor should they be required to.

 

Dealing with things like this takes a multi-tiered approach.

1. Fire an AR for noise and visual disturbance. Someone has already quoted the relevant section of the TOS on page 1 of this thread.

    

2. block the object, and its OWNER. Search around the parcel for a few objects - there are usually copies of it going in this situations.

    

3. Get help from groups like Arbor Project (or are they called Arbor Patrol, I forget).

    

4. Build a wall between parcels. Not a griefing glowing thing, just a high regular wall. I have found that when I build a decent looking but tall wall, conduct on the other side of it often improves after a few weeks... when they decide they want the view back. Then again I keep my land looking nice, something neighbors will want to have in view.

    

5. Scan the borders of your land for any object going partly over onto your side and return it. Carefully make sure NOTHING from your side goes over theirs even in its invisible / transparent aspects. Some of these things are people's ways of getting you to behave. You might be annoying them and not even know it.

    

6. Limits all sounds and gestures to your land. Make sure you are not bothering them, just in case...

    

7. Make sure your own build is not 'ugly' / blighted. The first step to getting others to not be rude, is to not be rude oneself. Beauty may be subjective, but some things are farily objectively blight: visible XXX content, mis aligned textures, mountain top beaches, or grass prims over water, inconsistent themes (subjective unless pretty extreme), rows of neatly arranged prim animals, the fireworks the OP complained about, garish colors (magenta is only a primary color if you are a printing press), overuse of lights, fullbright on exterior objects, overuse of glow (a favorite club for me has so much glow I can't go there... but I keep trying...), broken scripted objects stuck in some cycle, left-over opened boxes, hate speach, etc...

    

8. regularly ask the neighbor about things. But not too often. Or, for an even better strat: get to know them. If the neighbor is a friend, suddenly something that was annoying might become fun. Obviously this often fails as mainland is full of iconoclasts. But when it works it can make being in an area a LOT more enjoyable. I welcome anyone who has me as a neighbor to drop in and say hi if I have not done so already in past. 9 times out of ten every other method becomes un-needed once you actually know the person.

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Nyll Bergbahn wrote:

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Melita Magic wrote:

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Nyll Bergbahn wrote:

Seems like a clear breach of the Community Standards, namely:

 

Disturbing the Peace

Every Resident has a right to live their Second Life. Disrupting scheduled events, repeated transmission of undesired advertising content,

the use of repetitive sounds

, following or self-spawning items, or other objects that intentionally slow server performance or inhibit another Resident's ability to enjoy Second Life are examples of Disturbing the Peace

Keep submitting Abuse Reports and be specific as to what Community Standard is continually being broken by your neighbour. Whether LL will actually take action is another matter.

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This does not apply to what one does on one's own land. It's about going on someone else's land and disturbing their peace.

I don't feel an AR is appropriate in this situation.

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That's one interpretation but the CS makes no reference to the disturbance having to be on one's own land. If it is inhibiting another Resident's ability to enjoy Second Life, in this case, an immediate neighbour, it's up to Linden Lab to make a judgement call on whether what is happening is a TOS breach or not.

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I have used this form of AR with success in the past. With success on the level of a linden appearing while I was there and dealing with it.

It depends on the nature of the disturbance more than on where it occurs.

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

There's no need for ARs or notecards or unnecessary drama, just go to About Land/Sounds, put a check in the box next to, "Restrict gesture and object sounds to this parcel," and voila, no more firework sounds... see how simple that was?

...Dres

ETA:  For those that don't understand... when you restrict sounds to your parcel, it works both ways... sound doesn't get out and sound doesn't get in.

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Actually if I recall right, that limits your sounds from getting out, but doesn't keep external sounds from getting in.

Something to test...

 

I usually have that limit setting on, and the problem the OP had here, is one I had with a neghbor last year. In my case that neighbor left a bot in their living room for a month stuck in the 'heat of the moment phase' of her 'Xcite props'...

 

And there were multiple props rezzed, under at least two avatars I believe - as after trying to limit sounds, I went about hunting through that lot for objects and avatars to block (which finally did work once I had tracked down enough of them). Either sound limits are one-way, or that was a month with some bugs being ironed out (as happens, so I'll have to test this again).

 

Then one day, the avatar was gone and its profile de-activated. ARs work too - they just take forever sometimes... (this was not the example where I got a linden to show up. That example, was actually three cases: a script under the land of an adjacent lot, a giant sign with audio rezzed on two sides of a sim border, and another who's details I don't recall).

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

 

I once had a neighbor with a skyboxed art installation on her parcel that, every ten seconds or so, would drop a light bulb down to her land.  I had no issue with it at first, but after a while, hearing that light bulb hit the ground repeatedly threatened to drive me insane (alright... more insane).  So I restricted sound to my parcel and that was that... my insanity level was intact.

...Dres

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Heh.

Back in '09 I had a neighbor who was shooting 'male anatomy bits' out of a canon / gun, causing them to rain down on my land on an adjacent corner sim every few seconds...

 

- In that case, simply contacting the owner of that land resolved it with an 'oops, that wasn't supposed to happen.'

 

 

[Freya Mokusei]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Policy_on_ad_farms_and_network_advertisers

I think that this pretty clearly states that LL will look at and make a judgement call in these situations.

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Are you kidding? How does this even apply. (Rhetorical, it doesn't.)

Discarded, I don't have time to refute everyones' cherry-picking of the ToS.

And RE: Pussycat, yes it works from both sides. Much like isolating Voice to a single parcel, only with sound.

[Perrie Juran]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Policy_on_ad_farms_and_network_advertisers

I think that this pretty clearly states that LL will look at and make a judgement call in these situations.

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Are you

kidding

? How does this even apply. (Rhetorical, it doesn't.)

Discarded, I don't have time to refute everyones' cherry-picking of the ToS.

And RE: Pussycat, yes it works from both sides. Much like isolating Voice to a single parcel, only with sound.

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We haven't been CHERRY PICKING anything.

Repetitive sounds have been clearly pointed out as well as an answer to a specific question, "other forms of harrasmment."

If you want to walk through the orchard with your eyes closed that is your choice.

This sounds more to me that you are choosing to CHERRY PICK what you will agree with and what you wont.  Look at what you just did here.  You quoted Pussycat's reference to the settings in the Viewer but didn't mention the succesful AR's she stated in this category.

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Coby Foden wrote:

How about the fireworks particles? Those were rather annoying too with constant bright flashing going on. I'm interested to know can the disturbed neighbour do anything about them - except for turning particles off in their viewer?

Let's suppose that they might have wanted to have a romantic evening in candle light with their loved one - :heart: :matte-motes-big-grin: - so turning particles off from the viewer would not have been a solution. I went to that place and I noticed that blocking the fireworks emitter did nothing at all. Which I found very strange.

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I merely address what appeared to be the OP's main point of contention.  But, you're right, particles can be annoying simply because, depending on your system, they can cause client side lag.  If this is the case, you can always just set the particle count to an acceptable level... they don't have to be turned off completely.  The SL wiki suggests 256 to 512 (link).  AFAIK, fireworks usually don't actually emit light so they shouldn't cause an adverse lighting effect to your area... I could be wrong about this.

...Dres

[Pussycat Catnap]

I usually run with particles set to 0 or 256 until AFTER I learn that somewhere I am at would benefit from turning that up.

As a side effect, it can mean that I may have been a target of griefing before and never noticed.

- I do know others have been griefed, mentioned it to me, and I've come back with "what floating furry peni?"

Them: OMG they're everywhere!

Me: ?

/adjusts particle settings

Me: Ooooooh...

 

[Qwalyphi Korpov]

I make this tiny contribution to understanding:

Some fireworks (maybe it's most) rez additional objects.  The additional objects emit the spherical bursts of particles.  They get new uuids on rez.  So it's hard to derender them.   A derender of a ground sitting fireworks object doesn't really help much.

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Qwalyphi Korpov wrote:

I make this tiny contribution to understanding:

Some fireworks (maybe it's most) rez additional objects.  The additional objects emit the spherical bursts of particles.  They get new uuids on rez.  So it's hard to derender them.   A derender of a ground sitting fireworks object doesn't really help much.

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I was thinking much the same thing, but since I've never messed with fireworks myself, I wasn't sure.

...Dres