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Rhys Goode

Will a mesh deformer really help?

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Will a mesh deformer really help?  

Most of the mesh clothes I have looked at in wireframe (ctrl-alt-r) are made of meshes that just do not match the SL avatar mesh.  

So while a mesh deformer might make a rigged item fit in some fixed pose, would it necessarily help hide the mismatch between SL and rigged mesh clothing that makes us need to use alpha masks when we animate?

(animate == dance)

I use a shape that turns out to be very close to one of the "standard" sizes. And freely edit the shape to try to fit various outfits.

It is easy to make a mesh dress that fits my exact shape exactly in a specific pose.  It is appallingly difficult to do it when I start to dance. So far, I've only managed to do it for a couple of simplified cases.

I find that perhaps 1 in 10 of the time, an outfit works when I dance.  Except for 2 brands that will nearly always work.  (for my shape, your milage may vary).

I suspect that skill and insight to the SL avatar mesh and mesh topography make a much bigger difference than any mesh deformer ever could. Am I missing something?

 

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You are indeed missing something.

Fitting a mesh around the body dosent mean it will behave exact with every animation.

This 2 areas ( fit the body and moving while animate ) may overlap to an extend but still are separate issues.

 

The Deformer will only make sure that a mesh objecte will fit thighter and more accurate around the body shape of the avatar. But if you Animate that said Avatar its a total whole new level.

In short i depends highly on the used animation if the mesh follows to 100% the movement.

And while looking at the most liked and popular AO sets, i dont believe that this will happen to 100%. Also the Avatar bone structure in SL is very simple. It dosent supports complex rigging and therefore you cant have too complex movements or control parameters for the rigged mesh.

In short, the deformer will be a BIG help in fitting mesh objects ( e.g. clothes ) around the avarat, it will be also a small help to animated Avatars, but it will not be a 100% sollution to this.

 

p.s.

Jeez i lost it halway through.

Indeed is Rigging and Fitting the mesh 2 total different issues.

The Deformer will only make sure that the vertices of the object ( clothing ) will stay above the shape of the avatar.

Right now without the deformer this said mesh is only reacting to settings like lenght or height of the avarar bone set. So Armlenght for example is a no issue since the mesh follow those settings if you chnage them.- The Problem is the so called Morph targets like Muscles and Body fat for example, this settings have nothing to do with the bone settings, and mesh, till now, cant follow if you change such a slider in the apperance. The deformer will change this. That is the point of said deformer.

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I recently learned rigging to the volume bones  (Liquid Mesh). Which allows my clothing to be resized while the user changes his or her shape from the sliders. Dont think deformer will ever be finished

Some try to say this will break our content in the future. I doubt it

 

Even if deformer is released. I doubt we will never get away from having to make an alpha for mesh clothing without making major changes in the physics engine

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Dilbert Dilweg wrote:

I recently learned rigging to the volume bones  (Liquid Mesh). Which allows my clothing to be resized while the user changes his or her shape from the sliders. Dont think deformer will ever be finished

Some try to say this will break our content in the future. I doubt it

 

Even if deformer is released. I doubt we will never get away from having to make an alpha for mesh clothing without making major changes in the physics engine

The main issue here is that there is no volume bone for breasts and that's the biggest fail for me.  I don't mind wearing an alpha, I don't mind changing shape *slightly* but I do resent the fact that every one of the "standard sizes" has a boob job and they are all out of proportion.

I tend to also feel that LL will never release the deformer.  There is no incentive for them, they gain nothing from it.  It can be argued that it is already somewhat finished and has been for months, LL have just gone utterly silent on it.

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Sassy Romano wrote:

 

There is no incentive for them, they gain nothing from it.

If they released the deformer I guess people would start buying more mesh clothes.

From Marketplace sales Linden Lab will get their slice of income too. So they would gain more than nothing.

 

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Yes I fully understand where you are coming from . far from perfect that's for sure. Better than nothing lol. Materials took a nice leap in to the sceen while everyone still twiddles their thumbs waiting for a viable solution for a deformer, but my thumbs are getting raw, twiddlin away as no news or progress with it.

Hopefuly things advance in that direction. One can only hope it gets better. :smileyhappy:

 

May be easier to ad more volume bones than stretching for a deformer

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Dain Shan has it pretty much right. The Deformer has great possibilities for making closes fit better and uncomplicating things... in some ways. However, the way we are using deformation in SL is different than the typical use of deformation processes in games. In most games the avatar skin under the clothes is non-existent.There is no problem of making skin and clothes work together. Also, those avatars that do keep their skin and wear clothes are optimized so the clothes work with the avatar.

In SL the avatar is old. While debatable, when it was made it was pretty much state of the art and good enough for its purpose. Ten years later it is looking old and we are pushing limits not imagined when SL created the avatar. It is good, but not good enough.

The Lindens have been clear they want the Deformer, or something similar. BUT… a significant part of the resident community has objected to their adding the Deformer as is. The avatar has flaws and things that could be improved. The mesh layout and weighting could be better for the purposes it is used today. Both of those factors affect how we model clothes for the avatar.

We see some of the user resistance in how clothes are designed. We do not copy the avatar’s mesh layout. We improve on it. That means the clothes and avatar deform differently when animations are run. This is a problem for close fitting clothes. The avatar pokes through. So, we use alpha layers. There are other problems too.

Because so many residents are complaining about the avatar and requesting improvements, the Lindens have decided to put the Deformer on hold until they have people look at the avatar and decide what is going to be done with it in a ‘comprehensive’ way. In politics ‘comprehensive’ tends to mean politicians are not going to do anything until you stop watching.

At the Lab it means they are not going to do anything with the Deformer until they ‘know for certain’ adding the Deformer is not adding another stone to the pile that locks us into the current avatar. For the Lab there are other higher priority matters that supersede speeding time on the avatar. So, comprehensive just means delay.

Basically, the Lab has said, until we can be certain we are doing this right, we have the Deformer on hold. But, Oz Linden updates the Mesh Deformer Project Viewer every now and then and nags Lab management about assigning people to the project. But, little else can be done for now.

I have some hope that In-Worldz adopting the Mesh Deformer will raise the Deformer’s priority at the Lab.

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There is no reason why LL would have to throw out that old default avatar mesh in order to introduce a new one.

I am pretty sure LL will never do away with the old avatar mesh simply because any substantial changes would break too much existing content but LL could easily offer residents a choice to either use the original avatar or a new one.

Actually LL could offer several default mesh avatars.  One for specifically for females.  One for males and perhaps an even simpler one for people who have really old computers.

As far as will the mesh deformer help when an avatar is doing an animation the answer is YES. :)

Will it make all clothing move perfectly so no skin ever pokes out? NO.  Nothing is ever perfect.

Any clothing designer worth their salt is going to always provide an alpha layer to wear with their clothes preferably with full permissions so it can be modified by the buyer if absolutely need be.

I really don't understand why people seem to be hesitant about wearing an simple Alpha layer to make everything work.

The mesh deformer will make any mesh clothes fit your existing shape weather you are standing still or moving around.

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Nalates Urriah wrote:

BUT… a significant part of the resident community has objected to their adding the Deformer as is. 

More like a miniscule handful of people compared to the significant number of residents for whom the benefits would be huge.

Sorry, I don't buy this at all.  The few who complain that a couple of vertices don't quite match their specific creation or that gloves didn't precisely match the hand and so on doesn't constitute a pushback when there are so many saying "it works as is, within the bounds of the original project scope - ship it!"

Anyway, it's stalled and there's no real comment from LL as to what the future holds.

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Nalates Urriah wrote:

 

Because so many residents are complaining about the avatar and requesting improvements, the Lindens have decided to put the Deformer on hold until they have people look at the avatar and decide what is going to be done with it in a ‘comprehensive’ way. In politics ‘comprehensive’ tends to mean politicians are not going to do anything until you stop watching.

At the Lab it means they are not going to do anything with the Deformer until they ‘know for certain’ adding the Deformer is not adding another stone to the pile that locks us into the current avatar. For the Lab there are other higher priority matters that supersede speeding time on the avatar. So, comprehensive just means delay.

Basically, the Lab has said, until we can be certain we are doing this right, we have the Deformer on hold. But, Oz Linden updates the
Mesh Deformer Project Viewer
every now and then and nags Lab management about assigning people to the project. But, little else can be done for now.

 

Unless you are privy to private information all of the above is nothing but supposition.

Show me one place that LL has said publicly we are interested in doing "Avatar 2.0."

Where have they ever said they are going to look at the Avatar and what can be done to improve it?

I can see them nod their heads and say yes it would be nice to improve it.  That's a no brainer.  But do something about it, that is a whole other story.

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