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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:

Please be careful with stereotypes or we end up in a really bad corner.

Especially because of things like this:
more submissiveness

Gee, I love science! 

Here's a scientific study that says that
just by smiling
men can make women more obedient and submissive. 

*smiles* 

Opps, I'm not a man...so I guess it won't work for me!        *laughing* 

I read this a few days ago. I hate discovering I'm so easily manipulated!

That said, do you remember when we discussed the "Franklin effect"? Since first learning of that years ago, I've been (I think) vigilantly watching for its use on me. I'm also now wary of people that hand me warm objects, after reading that I'm more likely to think warm thoughts if holding a warm thing (though I wouldn't mind if someone handed me Michelle Pfeiffer). I wonder if I can internalize the knowledge of this study as well, and catch myself falling for a smile.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Yep, and though I may be an outlier, I have my share of "grrr" moments when I catch my prehistoric wiring doing stuff I don't like.

On a bit of a tangent, I've been toying with the idea of getting a dog and so have been doing some reading. I'd want a mellow companion, definitely not a dominant one (one stubborn jackass in the house is enough, don't ya know). It seems that, in some breeds of dog, the females are more dominant. I didn't find an explanation for that, but certainly found it interesting.

Yes, when we know that we're acting on ages old instincts, we still react according to our internal programing.  So, we modern women can either have lots of those "grrr" moments, or we can have lots of laughs about it.  (maybe some of each) 

 

I had an American Eskimo Dog (a Spitz type dog) and if we went out walking or jogging along a river trail near our house, he would run along side me and then make lunges at me, and try to grab me.   He was trying to do a "take down" like wolves do.  (Spitz type dogs are the most closely related to wolves)   He never did this with my husband, only with me.  So, this male dog was tying to establish himself as dominant over me.  Needless to say, I had to let him know that I was the alpha female, and since he wasn't the alpha male (my husband was) that he was not dominant over me.  But, next time out, he'd try it again, and this went on for a while, but he finally learned his place in the pack hierarchy.

 

You wrote:  "It seems that, in some breeds of dog, the females are more dominant."  

I've never heard of a breed of dogs where the females are more dominate than the males.  What breed would this be?

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Celestiall Nightfire wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:

Please be careful with stereotypes or we end up in a really bad corner.

Especially because of things like this:
more submissiveness

Gee, I love science! 

Here's a scientific study that says that
just by smiling
men can make women more obedient and submissive. 

*smiles* 

Opps, I'm not a man...so I guess it won't work for me!        *laughing* 

I read this a few days ago. I hate discovering I'm so easily manipulated!

That said, do you remember when we discussed the "Franklin effect"? Since first learning of that years ago, I've been (I think) vigilantly watching for its use on me. I'm also now wary of people that hand me warm objects, after reading that I'm more likely to think warm thoughts if holding a warm thing (though I wouldn't mind if someone handed me Michelle Pfeiffer). I wonder if I can internalize the knowledge of this study as well, and catch myself falling for a smile.

Yes, it's our brain wiring thing again!  Working towards ends with which we aren't even aware.

 

Yes, that Franklin effect if something I learned in sales training classes.  I try to be on alert for it, and even try to be on alert for it in the opposite direction.  As people will often try to do me a favor, and I have to stop and think.  I want to behave graciously, and accept their favor (which is a kindness) but I also am conscious of the fact that this could lead them to be susceptible to manipulations.  I have to wonder if me "knowing" this bit of psychology would lead me to subtly use that advantage? 

 

*BTW,Maddy, would you mind holding this warm kitten for me, while I try to find it's owner?  I wouldn't ask just anyone to do me a favor like this, but you seem to like animals, so I hope you don't mind*      *smiles*   

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Celestiall Nightfire wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:

Please be careful with stereotypes or we end up in a really bad corner.

Especially because of things like this:
more submissiveness

Gee, I love science! 

Here's a scientific study that says that
just by smiling
men can make women more obedient and submissive. 

*smiles* 

Opps, I'm not a man...so I guess it won't work for me!        *laughing* 

I read this a few days ago. I hate discovering I'm so easily manipulated!

That said, do you remember when we discussed the "Franklin effect"? Since first learning of that years ago, I've been (I think) vigilantly watching for its use on me. I'm also now wary of people that hand me warm objects, after reading that I'm more likely to think warm thoughts if holding a warm thing (though I wouldn't mind if someone handed me Michelle Pfeiffer). I wonder if I can internalize the knowledge of this study as well, and catch myself falling for a smile.

Yes, it's our brain wiring thing again!  Working towards ends with which we aren't even aware.

 

Yes, that Franklin effect if something I learned in sales training classes.  I try to be on alert for it, and even try to be on alert for it in the opposite direction.  As people will often try to do me a favor, and I have to stop and think.  I want to behave graciously, and accept their favor (which is a kindness) but I also am conscious of the fact that this could lead them to be susceptible to manipulations.  I have to wonder if me "knowing" this bit of psychology would lead me to subtly use that advantage? 

 

*BTW,Maddy, would you mind holding this warm kitten for me, while I try to find it's owner?  I wouldn't ask just anyone to do me a favor like this, but you seem to like animals, so I hope you don't mind*      *smiles*   

You are supposed to subtly use your advantages, Celestiall!!!

Don't bother looking for the kitten's owner, I'm keeping it.

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Yep, and though I may be an outlier, I have my share of "grrr" moments when I catch my prehistoric wiring doing stuff I don't like.

On a bit of a tangent, I've been toying with the idea of getting a dog and so have been doing some reading. I'd want a mellow companion, definitely not a dominant one (one stubborn jackass in the house is enough, don't ya know). It seems that, in some breeds of dog, the females are more dominant. I didn't find an explanation for that, but certainly found it interesting.

Yes, when we know that we're acting on ages old instincts, we still react according to our internal programing.  So, we modern women can either have lots of those "grrr" moments, or we can have lots of laughs about it.  (maybe some of each) 

 

I had an American Eskimo Dog (a Spitz type dog) and if we went out walking or jogging along a river trail near our house, he would run along side me and then make lunges at me, and try to grab me.   He was trying to do a "take down" like wolves do.  (Spitz type dogs are the most closely related to wolves)   He never did this with my husband, only with me.  So, this male dog was tying to establish himself as dominant over me.  Needless to say, I had to let him know that I was the alpha female, and since he wasn't the alpha male (my husband was) that he was not dominant over me.  But, next time out, he'd try it again, and this went on for a while, but he finally learned his place in the pack hierarchy.

 

You wrote:  "
It seems that, in some breeds of dog, the females are more dominant.
"  

I've never heard of a breed of dogs where the females are more dominate than the males.  What breed would this be?

I do often laugh at things my subconscious does. Although Carole argued that we're not aware of our subconscious activity, I often catch myself in the act of "thinking" odd things. I have, in fact, been able to ask my subconscious to keep an eye on itself. This sounds weird, but it can be done.

I've a friend who has trained himself to recognize the actions that lead up to vacating a parking spot (walking towards a car with packages, etc). He is truly impressive in his ability to do this. When in college, we took him along when we went downtown, just to make sure we got a good parking spot.

He explained this as the effect of training his "reticular activating system". He'd taken some psych courses, so I took that explanation at face value. Since then I've come to think it's probably not exactly that system he co-opted, but something more complex and nuanced. I do not doubt that we can direct our subconscious to some extent, and I believe I do it.

I'll see if I can find that dog website in my history and give you a link.

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Carole wrong? Nevah!

First off - hadn't we established that aggressiveness is not the opposite of dominance? The male-cocktail of hormones undoubtedly makes the menfolk more ready for a punch-up than us gals, useful for 'dominating' the enemy (though 'defeating' is probably the better term), but why should that automatically translate into using aggression to dominate your womenfolk? They're the other half of your community, after all - surely cooperation is more the more obvious, more effective (why waste precious aggressiveness-energy on members of your own community?) modus vivendi?

And in fact, though anthropologists have been painting a picture of club-wielding cavemen for some time, others are now saying that maybe task-sharing, much, much more egalitarian societies were the norm, with even the odd foray into maternity/femininity worship. I read a whole load of papers about this some years ago - if I can track them down, I'll give a link to them.

I've had the opportunity to experience first-hand a couple of highly patriarchal cultures, and if I had to give an ultra simplistic summing up of what's going on it's this - the men use the reason/excuse of protecting women to limit female mobility and choice in the outside world (to guarantee the paternity of the off-spring), however, within the relationship and the family, the women usually hold the reins and have the final say in almost all matters. I've witnessed with my own eyes family dynamics in cultures which are held up as an example of male dominated societies where everything actually revolves around the women, in particular the mother and/or grandmother, and the father has a peripheral 'guard-dog' role.

I think the bdsm gang could actually explain much better than me that physical superiority is not a key factor in assuming the dominant role, and that it's possible to control without raising one's voice or using the fist. And in fact, I remain convinced that we are mislabeling that quieter, non-aggressive, more manipulative form of control that women excel in, by calling it passivity.

 

 

 

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Mysteriann wrote:

I am a straight male in R and a Middle East veteran.  I'm not transgendered or a crossdresser, but am fascinated by the idea of what my life would be like if I were female.  I know that being female would be extremely difficult and probably somewhat terrifying for a male.  I want to know what it's like to be female from the tiniest physical detail to the larger psychological, emotional, societal and physical complexities of being a woman.  

I need an RL female mentor/teacher/friend to help me become as complete a virtual woman as possible.  It seems to me that being a man is relatively easy and simple compared to being a woman.  I'd like to see if I can handle being a woman, even a virtual one.  

I applaud your endeavor.  I have only read the first few responses and am coming in very late to this thread but wanted to add:

I have two male friends - one is a female avatar in SL the majority of the time and the other has a female alt he uses in certain situations (neither of the two for sexual reasons, afaik).  Both have commented to me that the experience of being female avatars have "made them ashamed to be linked with other members of their gender" - in that they were appalled at the type of comments they received.  The friend with the female alt stays in very "PG" type areas and neither go places where they are inviting male avatars to connect with them; ie. dancing, etc.

I was surprised to hear their input.  As a RL female with a female avatar, I rarely get hit on and overall (except in relationship issues) have had positive interactions with men in SL.  I will be interested in hearing your experiences and perceptions.  Please feel free to send an IM to me in world as I will receive those in email whereas I don't tend to follow many forum threads.

Good luck and have fun!

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Serra Nightfire wrote:

 

I also hope that he will report back if he finds someone and does it, I'd even love to see a blog made about the experience. The whole veteran part is just so fascinating.

Years ago I had yet another male friend who chose to be a female avatar in SL for much the same reason as the OP.  (He has since left SL, which is why I didn't include him in my prior post.)  He stated in his SL profile that he was a man RL as his purposes for being a female avatar was not to deceive anyone.

He had an interest in just what you mention, Serra - wanting to experience how he might be treated differently and he did keep a blog. (I will see if it is still online later and add a post if so.)  Yearly he did an "experiment" with any friends who wished to join him; I participated in 2008.  The participants were to choose to wear an avatar that would be a bit uncomfortable for them - and wear it continuously for one week (with the exception of people who worked in a public job in SL and needed to be "themselves" while at work).  He blogged about his experience, encouraged us to as well.  One night we met as a group and went on a "field trip" to several places - the first was the Ahern infohub, another was to the Blarney Stone Pub...forget the other place.

Of the group, our leader (the RL male who was a female in SL) wore a Muslim outfit - hijab, etc., but the face unveiled; a couple who are Caucasian RL chose African-American avatars, one woman went as a child av, another wore a wheelchair, a RL female (who was always female in SL) became a dapper Victorian gentleman, and I spent the week as a furry - for me, an avatar type with whom I used to feel uncomfortable.  I didn't notice any change in how people interacted with me (meaning those who didn't already know me), except for when we all arrived at Ahern.  I had barely rezzed in before I saw "Hey, fur-F@g."  Nice.  Interestingly, the adult woman who was in a child av became a bit frightened at Ahern, which I found an interesting phenomena.  Nothing out of the ordinary happened at the Blarney Pub - I think that speaks for the variety of avatars that inhabit SL.  It was almost like the old joke: "A furry, child avatar, and woman in a hijab entered a bar..."  People may have thought we were a "motley group" entering together, but no one, with the exception of those at Ahern, said anything.

We met up the last night to discuss how the experiment went for each of us.  By the end of the week I had become a bit fond of my pretty cat furry avatar, but all of us expressed relief at going back to "our norms."

Edit: Attempt to replace the *bleeped* word

 

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KlistiesSeMio Ewinaga wrote:

 

When I'm in my hipster guy avi (black, taller, tatts, fun hair) I get ims from ladies that seem pleasant, if not flirty. 


Just shows how we are all different as people.  When I see a guy with a lot of tats, I immediately form (subconsciously) a more negative opinion, which has no basis other than I personally don't like tats.  I prefer men who are well-groomed, dress more formally, etc.

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Czari Zenovka wrote:


KlistiesSeMio Ewinaga wrote:

 

When I'm in my hipster guy avi (black, taller, tatts, fun hair) I get ims from ladies that seem pleasant, if not flirty. 


Just shows how we are all different as people.  When I see a guy with a lot of tats, I immediately form (subconsciously) a more negative opinion, which has no basis other than I personally don't like tats.  I prefer men who are well-groomed, dress more formally, etc.

When I see a fella covered with tats, I'm inclined to hand him a kitten. Fortunately, I don't have any kittens, RL or SL, so I just continue on my way.

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Unfortunately, that comment proves you will never understand women, because you missed what the comment meant.

ADDED: Just to clarify the navy part, your navy was never in my country and has nothing to do with what your feed was about, macho posturing?

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I showed this post to a few of my friends before replying. Mainly because i wanted their opinion. We all agree that a middle aged man playing a 12 year old girl in SL that is going through puberty and having to talk with others about it is quite a bit on the creepy side.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

I showed this post to a few of my friends before replying. Mainly because i wanted their opinion. We all agree that a middle aged man playing a 12 year old girl in SL that is going through puberty and having to talk with others about it is quite a bit on the creepy side.

That could be because we all view others through our own personality.

 

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Mysteriann wrote:

  Marisa is 12 years old and in the eigth grade. 
Do the math people...
All of the other kids in her class are 13.
Again, math time.
During the past year Marisa has had to get both glasses (contacts irritated her eyes) and braces (Her teeth weren't perfect, but she really didn't need them. 
1. They wont give a child contacts and 2 Braces are not something you just "get"
Her mother decided out of the blue that Marisa needed braces, so to placate her he paid for the braces, but wasn't willing to pay for the comfortable, invisible kind, so she got the old-fashioned metal kind).
The old fashioned metal kind that is used 99% of the time because they work better?
She also developed acne and has gotten pudgy.  She's also started to grow in awkward ways.  Her feet have grown two-sizes in six months and her hips are expanding, but she's not getting taller. And she's getting pudgy.  She's not eating differently or exercising less but she's getting pudgy.
That is three times you have mentioned her getting pudgy, methinks there is a deeper problem here. Do you have female children? I do, none of my daughters friends have finished puberty at 12.. Not a single one.  
At this point in her life Marisa feels ugly and awkward.  She's very self-conscious and overly-sensitive. Recently, she's begun to feel uncomfortable in her own body.  Her best friends since 1st grade have finished or are near finishing their growth spurts and they've all begun developing breasts.  Marisa's not going through a very pleasant time in her life right now.

 
Growth spurts do not end untill 16 or 17.. Again though.. a middle aged man playing a young girl going throughpuberty and wanting to talk to a RL woman about the changes her body is going through is creepy as hell. 

 

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