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Mysteriann

RL Male becoming SL female looking for TL female mentor

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Years ago a male friend and I tried an experiment of dressing for the other gender. He was rather slim and, unlike many men, could easily appear female as long as he wore pants to cover his hairy legs. It was winter so we could wear hats and coats. He (looking like a woman, with a stuffed bra and female type jeans, and able to fake a female voice), and I (rather small up top and with male clothes, mouth kept shut) went into stores and even public restrooms. We each, dressed as our correct gender, accompanied the other. I had him (dressed as her) go into a lingerie department and try on a bra (in a dressing room) and into a store to by tampons where he would have to ask for them at the counter (that was fun to watch) and I went into men's rooms (eyes straight ahead until I was in a stall!).

It was fun, and we both learned. However, there is much more to being male or female than such an experiment could show.

But I think that it was easier for me than him. 

 

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Syo, being submissive is not a stereo type.  It's just an anthropomological and biological fact that estrogen effects women by suppressing testosterone (the aggression hormone) thereby making them more submissive.  That's not the entire picture however.  Some anthropologists believe that since women tend to be physically less muscular (again due to lack of testosterone) they have evolved to look to males and a group community for protection.  Cave women were thought to have basically stayed with the children and gather berries, vegetables, roots etc. (something they could do accompanied by children) while the cavemen were the ones who went out to hunt wild game.  These roles simply came about by default due to physical differences. This being the way things were for thousands and thousands of years,  women have never physically evolved into more male strength and size. 

Being submissive has been the female behavior most likely to elicit male protective behavior and therefore has served women as an effective survival tool.  Despite modern day female freedom and many more female bread winners (and I certainly think women have proven themselves strong enough to achieve in career and still parent effectively, a double burden if you will) women are still physically smaller and physically less able to defend themselves against male strength and aggression.  If you doubt this, then look at domestic violence statistics.  Many many more women are the victims of domestic violence perpetrated by males in their lives.  Therefore, women often will opt to "give in" to men's demands or to "go along to get along" in order to avoid a physical confrontation.  So in this sense, I was referring to women as more submissive.  Mentally, I can challenge any man and usually win in the intellectual arena.  Physically, I could not though I am sure there are a few exceptions to the rule out there.

One more note of interest, I have myself experienced the difference in personality which occurs when estrogen drops and allows testosterone to rise in females.  I had a hysterectomy at an age when most women are able to have babies.  Before, I was a "go along to get along" type.  A constant pleaser trying to keep my romantic relationships in tact by acting in a more submissive manner.  Afterward, I opted to use herbal hormone therapy which is not nearly as strong as those prescribed by doctors.  Due to this, I had a natural drop in estrogen and a consequent rise in testosterone.  Suddenly, I was much less willing to just be dictated to by the males in my life.  I was more competitive with others and did not shrink from confrontations the way I had before.  I was a more agressive driver than I ever had been, and much more outspoken than ever before in my life.

So this is why I refer to women (those with normal estrogen levels) as exhibiting apparent submissive behavior.

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Submissive IS a stereotype! Or are all Mistresses not full women? Are all women in leading positions, all women in independent positions fake women? Every woman in the military or the police?

Its sexism to say women have a natural rule as weak minded beings who have to seek men to protect (and rule) them. I'm a woman and I don't submit to anybody! I'll fight, even if its the last thing I would do on earth. (and no I'm not an old lady whos hormones dropped).

I don't say all women are that strong, but I won't let those statements go trough as truth.

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Actually....

Men are almost as likely to be victims of Domestic Violence as women are: http://domesticviolencestatistics.org/men-the-overlooked-victims-of-domestic-violence/

Just sayin'

But if you want to talk about generalities, women know that men are strictly averse to hitting a woman for any reason even if she attacks him physically, so they can exploit this fact to abuse their partner because he will just put up with it. Also keep in mind that you're going to respond much differently being suddenly exposed to a different balance in hormones than someone who has experienced it their whole life and learned control the negative aspects of it like aggressive driving while embracing the positives it brings like taking business risks to invent new things.

So back to the OPs question, I would submit that you can play the part of the opposite gender, you can look it, and you can experience how others react to you cognitively (as much as possible in SL) if you present that role convincingly. What you can never experience is how it feels internally to be that gender because you're just not wired to experience it. It's similar to how you know your dog is happy to see you when you get home because he tells you, but you really can't relate to what your dog is experiencing internally.

[EDIT: Formatting]

 

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Loralinda wrote:

Syo, being submissive is not a stereo type.  It's just an anthropomological and biological fact that estrogen effects women by suppressing testosterone (the aggression hormone) thereby making them more submissive.  That's not the entire picture however.  Some anthropologists believe that since women tend to be physically less muscular (again due to lack of testosterone) they have evolved to look to males and a group community for protection.  Cave women were thought to have basically stayed with the children and gather berries, vegetables, roots etc. (something they could do accompanied by children) while the cavemen were the ones who went out to hunt wild game.  These roles simply came about by default due to physical differences. This being the way things were for thousands and thousands of years,  women have never physically evolved into more male strength and size. 

Being submissive has been the female behavior most likely to elicit male protective behavior and therefore has served women as an effective survival tool.  Despite modern day female freedom and many more female bread winners (and I certainly think women have proven themselves strong enough to achieve in career and still parent effectively, a double burden if you will) women are still physically smaller and physically less able to defend themselves against male strength and aggression.  If you doubt this, then look at domestic violence statistics.  Many many more women are the victims of domestic violence perpetrated by males in their lives.  Therefore, women often will opt to "give in" to men's demands or to "go along to get along" in order to avoid a physical confrontation.  So in this sense, I was referring to women as more submissive.  Mentally, I can challenge any man and usually win in the intellectual arena.  Physically, I could not though I am sure there are a few exceptions to the rule out there.

One more note of interest, I have myself experienced the difference in personality which occurs when estrogen drops and allows testosterone to rise in females.  I had a hysterectomy at an age when most women are able to have babies.  Before, I was a "go along to get along" type.  A constant pleaser trying to keep my romantic relationships in tact by acting in a more submissive manner.  Afterward, I opted to use herbal hormone therapy which is not nearly as strong as those prescribed by doctors.  Due to this, I had a natural drop in estrogen and a consequent rise in testosterone.  Suddenly, I was much less willing to just be dictated to by the males in my life.  I was more competitive with others and did not shrink from confrontations the way I had before.  I was a more agressive driver than I ever had been, and much more outspoken than ever before in my life.

So this is why I refer to women (those with normal estrogen levels) as exhibiting apparent submissive behavior.

 

Holy burning bras! Decades of feminism swept away with one post.

The opposite of submissive is dominant. Aggressivity is not the same thing, as any SL Dom will be glad to explain to you. Being more biologically adapt for protecting and fighting does not necessarily mean that the male dominated the female. It means he tried to dominate his enemies. Bit of a difference.

"Therefore, women often will opt to "give in" to men's demands or to "go along to get along" in order to avoid a physical confrontation."

Wut? Having to give in to one's partners demands for fear of being physically assaulted is what occurs in abusive relationships. Abusive relationships are not the norm. Thank God.

Lastly; your own very personal case of a personality change due to hormonal changes is just that - a very personal case. It proves nothing. My own very personal case is of being an irremovable, stubborn, bad-tempered beyatch all my life, and if anything, I'm waaaaaay calmer now that I'm in my middle-age than when I was a teen or early twenties. What does that prove? That in my case, the years of the hyper-dose of female hormones saw me, ironically, at my ballsiest. Now, of course, I'm just a **bleep** cat.

So, in conclusion, I beg to differ - equating submissiveness and women is indeed a stereotype.

 

ETA - a bleep cat???? Oh, lordly.... Puss*cat is what kids call felines where I come from.

 

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Syo Emerald wrote:

Submissive IS a stereotype! Or are all Mistresses not full women? Are all women in leading positions, all women in independent positions fake women? Every woman in the military or the police?

Its sexism to say women have a natural rule as weak minded beings who have to seek men to protect (and rule) them. I'm a woman and I don't submit to anybody! I'll fight, even if its the last thing I would do on earth. (and no I'm not an old lady whos hormones dropped).

I don't say all women are that strong, but I won't let those statements go trough as truth.

You go, girl! And you're dead right - it is sexism. I love how everyone assumes that back in Fred Flintstone days men were male chauvanist pigs (there's actually a lot of dead serious scientific theory which refutes this idea) bashing women over the head with clubs all day, when it's perfectly possible that society was perfectly well-balanced regarding gender roles and was more collaborative in a general sense. No way of knowing for sure - could swing either way - just a shame everyone (usually men though) seems to want to embrace the idea that it's natural for men to dominate and use aggression on women.

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There does seem to be come confusion between agression and dominance. I'm certainly not submissive, nor am I agressive. If you show me something that needs doing, I'm generally all over it. If you tell me to do something, good luck. I love pleasing people, but I do it my way.

When I lived in the city during college and needed to walk the city streets after dark, I could easily cajole a big fella into accompanying me. To me, that was like wielding a bazooka. To others, seeing little me on the arm of a big fella, or wielding a bazooka would produce very different estimations of my nature, no?

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Hi,  It's the OP again.  I've really enjoyed the discussion around virtually changing genders and the collateral subjects that have come up.  Every post I've seen has relevance.

Here's an update.  I was going to send it to one individual poster but decided it might be of interest to the board in general.

 

Hi,

I'm trying to respond to different commenters to my OP personally because I appreciate your responses.  They've all been intelligent and thoughtful.  I have found a mentor and we've started into the project.  She's perfect because she's not taking it as a lark, but she has a great imagination, sense of play and fun.  She had to be someone who maintains and nurtures their inner child.  For it to work my mentor had to have all of those qualities,   I'm so lucky that she was interested in doing it.

We are doing it as a very loose, unscripted RP, almost like an acting improv.  We both understand that I'll never really be able to comprehend what it's like to be female, no matter how intense this experiment gets, but that I can gain understanding and insight.

We've both created characters and an SL life for ourselves and we're making those lives somewhat problematic, just like RL can be.  There's a social dynamic between the two characters that's a very positive and mutually supportive one but it has tensions because of the situation we've put ourselves into.

She decided that for me to even to be able to come close to a simulation of a woman's life that I had to experience an approximation of what it's like to go through (endure?) female puberty.  She decided I needed to be a pre-pubescent 12-year old.  She didn't want to be my mother.  She's a mother in SL and has a son, so she's my aunt and legal guardian.  She's my father's much younger sister.  She's 25 and was in a very competitive graduate school in architecture until I came to live with her.  She realized that she couldn't focus on her studies with me living with her at this critical age, so she withdrew and took a job as a draftsman, planning to re-enroll in school when I'm a little older and more settled.

My father is an engineer with an oil company in the Middle East and Southeast Asia.  He only comes back to the US for a month every year and of that month he only spends about a week at home.  He doesn't pay much attention to me at all even during that week, but he always sends birthday and Christmas presents so I know he loves me.  My mother is a very, nice, sweet, pleasant woman who floats through life in an alcohol and pill-induced haze, having numerous affairs, often bringing men home and sometimes not coming home at night.  Aunt Elise decided she needed to get custody early one Saturday morning when she came over to pick me up for an outing when I was 10  and my mother wasn't home.  Aunt Elise said that we needed to wait for her.  So we waited and waited and waited until 10:00 and she never came home.  Aunt Elise took me home with her that night and I've lived with her ever since.

{Btw, her character's name is EliseAndersen and my character is Marisa Andersen}

I'm a writer and an actor in RL.  I rarely write fiction, but when I do, in the best of it my characters start living on their own.  They start doing and saying things that surprise me and I start feeling what they feel.  I know that they are not actually doing that.  What the characters have done is taken up residence in my subconscious and I'm still guiding them, although not consciously.  That doesn't always happen, not even most of the time, but when it does, it's sublime.  It allows me to experience a different reality.

When I act a similar type of thing happens.  At some point in the acting process I begin to inhabit the character or the character begins to inhabit me, not exactly sure how it works but we merge and I become the character.  If the character drags his leg like a log because the nerves to his leg won't work, then my own leg feels numb, won't take orders from my brain and has to be dragged like a log.  If a character limps from pain, my leg hurts.

SL is a combination of acting and writing for me.  I don't always fully become the character with every role and my characters don't always live on their on their own when I write fiction.  Usually it takes intense days or weeks of working with a character for that to happen. 

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There was a recent study done of "doggy guilt". Many of use have probably seen the "guilty dog" videos on YouTube, showing some dog cowering in a corner with a sad expression on its face, presumeably because it had done something bad, got caught, and was feeling guilty.

Researchers went to a local dog park and enlisted a bunch of dogs and their owners for the study. The researchers borrowed the dogs for a few minutes to play with them, then returned them to their owners. As you'd expect, there were instances of misbehavior and instances of good behavior. The researchers returned the dogs to their owners, and proceeded to give a mix of the four possible combinations of actual and reported behavior.

Good behavior, good report.
Good behavior, bad report.
Bad behavior, good report.
Bad behavior, bad report.

The owners were then observed handling the news with their dogs. What did the researchers discover? A dog's guilty look was correlated with the report, but not the actual behavior. The dogs were responding to their owners tone of voice and body language upon revelation of the behavior reports. So the dogs had no obvious concept of "guilt", that was a human projection.

Once you realize that you are illuminating the world around you with the light of your own self, it becomes harder to believe you really know what's going.

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Carole Franizzi wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:

Submissive IS a stereotype! Or are all Mistresses not full women? Are all women in leading positions, all women in independent positions fake women? Every woman in the military or the police?

Its sexism to say women have a natural rule as weak minded beings who have to seek men to protect (and rule) them. I'm a woman and I don't submit to anybody! I'll fight, even if its the last thing I would do on earth. (and no I'm not an old lady whos hormones dropped).

I don't say all women are that strong, but I won't let those statements go trough as truth.

You go, girl! And you're dead right - it is sexism. I love how everyone assumes that back in Fred Flintstone days men were male chauvanist pigs (there's actually a lot of dead serious scientific theory which refutes this idea) bashing women over the head with clubs all day, when it's perfectly possible that society was perfectly well-balanced regarding gender roles and was more collaborative in a general sense. No way of knowing for sure - could swing either way -
just a shame everyone (usually men though) seems to want to embrace the idea that it's natural for men to dominate and use aggression on women.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by the phrase I have underlined.  By "embrace," do you mean "use the idea as an excuse for their (wrong) actions?"

Also, removing the idea of dominance or aggression from the equation, what about the concept that some if not many of us men were raised with, that we were responsible to take charge or lead in a monogamous relationship?  Do women naturally prefer a man who is decisive or indecisive?

I can't really speak for other times and places in history, I've not studied them in detail on this subject,  but I do know that we are living in a time where many of the traditional roles have been questioned and / or have changed.  And honestly, sometimes it can get confusing because it appears that the rules keep getting changed on us, both for men and for women.

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Carole Franizzi wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:

Submissive IS a stereotype! Or are all Mistresses not full women? Are all women in leading positions, all women in independent positions fake women? Every woman in the military or the police?

Its sexism to say women have a natural rule as weak minded beings who have to seek men to protect (and rule) them. I'm a woman and I don't submit to anybody! I'll fight, even if its the last thing I would do on earth. (and no I'm not an old lady whos hormones dropped).

I don't say all women are that strong, but I won't let those statements go trough as truth.

You go, girl! And you're dead right - it is sexism. I love how everyone assumes that back in Fred Flintstone days men were male chauvanist pigs (there's actually a lot of dead serious scientific theory which refutes this idea) bashing women over the head with clubs all day, when it's perfectly possible that society was perfectly well-balanced regarding gender roles and was more collaborative in a general sense. No way of knowing for sure - could swing either way -
just a shame everyone (usually men though) seems to want to embrace the idea that it's natural for men to dominate and use aggression on women.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by the phrase I have underlined.  By "embrace," do you mean "use the idea as an excuse for their (wrong) actions?"

Also, removing the idea of dominance or aggression from the equation, what about the concept that some if not many of us men were raised with, that we were responsible to take charge or lead in a monogamous relationship?  Do women naturally prefer a man who is decisive or indecisive?

I can't really speak for other times and places in history, I've not studied them in detail on this subject,  but I do know that we are living in a time where many of the traditional roles have been questioned and / or have changed.  And honestly, sometimes it can get confusing because it appears that the rules keep getting changed on us, both for men and for women.

I'm not sure that decisiveness means taking charge. I do like deciseness in a partner, even (or particularly ;-) if that means quickly deciding that I should be the one to decide ;-)

I was raised to question tradition, so I do. But many people find comfort in it, so a woman who prefers a man that takes charge in their relationship may not be doing so "naturally", but as a result of other natural desires that can be fulfulled by accepting the traditions.

You ain't the only one who's sometimes confused!

ETA: Some of my confusion (which might better be described as uncertainty) stems from conflicting research coming out of the scientific community. But that's just normal. Science is a messy business. And a good bit of my confusion stems from my brain's natural inclination to make up stuff that feels good but is ultimately nonsense.

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This is a follow-on to my last post.  Last night was the first time we RP'd and Marisa lived on her own, not the whole RP, but a couple of times.

My mentor and I exchange ideas via private posts on this board and IM in SL.  I received a message from her yesterday morning saying that breasts are something that are very important to a woman and that most women spend a lot of time thinking about their own breasts.  That most women she knew were not satisfied with their breasts, that the well-endowed want to be smaller, flat-chested women want to be bigger, or they don't like the shape.  She said not all women of course, but many and perhaps most, snd that girls Marisa's age were starting to think about their bodies differently, so I needed to start thinking about my breasts.

A little bit more of Marisa's and Elise's back story to help you see some nuance in the following.  Elise is really the only responsible adult Marisa has ever had in her life.  Aunt Elise had involved herself in Marisa's life long before Marisa came to live with her.  Once, when Marisa was 4, Elyse discovered her mother passed out drunk on the couch and Marisa locked in her room.  Elyse determined to keep Marisa out of that house as much as possible, so she asked a favor from a friend who worked for the city school system and got Marisa enrolled in first grade a year early.  She had no problems keeping up academically or socially and there were no problems until the 7th and 8th grades when a lot of the other kids started hitting puberty.  Marisa is 12 years old and in the eigth grade.  All of the other kids in her class are 13.  During the past year Marisa has had to get both glasses (contacts irritated her eyes) and braces (Her teeth weren't perfect, but she really didn't need them.  Her mother decided out of the blue that Marisa needed braces, so to placate her he paid for the braces, but wasn't willing to pay for the comfortable, invisible kind, so she got the old-fashioned metal kind).  She also developed acne and has gotten pudgy.  She's also started to grow in awkward ways.  Her feet have grown two-sizes in six months and her hips are expanding, but she's not getting taller. And she's getting pudgy.  She's not eating differently or exercising less but she's getting pudgy.  At this point in her life Marisa feels ugly and awkward.  She's very self-conscious and overly-sensitive. Recently, she's begun to feel uncomfortable in her own body.  Her best friends since 1st grade have finished or are near finishing their growth spurts and they've all begun developing breasts.  Marisa's not going through a very pleasant time in her life right now.

 

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Mysteriann wrote:

Yep. We all see the world through our own lens.  Wouldn't it be fascinating to peek through someone else's?

Yes, and it would probably be baffling.

The differences in the way we perceive and think can be profound. You might perceive color differently than I do (25% of women have four color receptors, not three). You might hear differently than I do. People who learn foreign languages late in life, and who speak with thick accents, actually hear with an accent. If I say "click" a native Japanese may hear "crick". That's why they can't shed their accent, they hear us having it. I have a very fast visual system. You'd live in world full of annoying flicker from artificial lighting in general and plasma televisions in particular.

So, before you could even  begin to use my very different social and educational background, you'd have to deal with some very fundamental cognitive differences.

 

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Sorry, I need to take breaks from these long posts.  This is the third, and I hope final post today.

As I mentioned in earlier parts of this post, Marisa lived on her own a few times during our RP last night.  For our RP last night I dreamed up a nightmare day in school for Marisa.  She was betrayed by a close friend which led to a boy who'd been a close friend with all of their lives being really, rude and ugly to her in front of a group of people.  One of the things he said humiliated her about her lack of development and shortly afterwards someone taped a piece of paper to her back that she didn't find until she got home.  Someone had written "PRESIDENT----ITTY BITTY TITTY COMMITTEE" on it.

Anyway, Marisa was telling Aunt Elise about the boy who had been so nasty to her and she started typing things I hadn't intended.  She'd been shocked and frightened by the boy's verbal attack and humiliation of her, but she became overwhelmingly distraught while she was telling her aunt about it and so did I.  She was crying so hard she was having trouble getting her words, crying so hard snot was coming out of her nose and so was I.

The second time it happened, that Marisa lived on her own, we'd just been in an arguement that Aunt Elise won.  Somehow Marisa had come to the conclusion that having breasts would solve all of her life's problems and many would could have been prevented if she had breasts.  Timmy wouldn't have been mean to her, no one would have put that stupid piece of paper on her back.

So Marisa asked Aunt Elise if she could get breast implants and of course she was appalled and immediately and firmly said no.  That was followed by half an hour, of wheedling, arguing, begging and pleading which all came to no avail.

And then Marisa woke up again.  This all came from her, not me.  What follows is a rough memory transcript of what transpired after Marisa had resigned herself to the fact that she was not going to get breast implants under any circumstances as long as her aunt had anything to do with it.

Marisa: Well, can I get a tattoo then?

Elise: (pauses, appears to think it over)  Yes, honey, I think it would be fine if you got a tattoo, but please think carefully about it before you do.  Tattoos are painful to get and they're meant to be permanent.  They're even more painful to have removed if you decide you don't like it later.  Maybe you should experiment with a temporary tattoo and see if that's what you really want.?

Marisa: No! I want a real tattoo!

Elise: Well, I said you could get one.

Marisa: A butterfly?

Elise: I think a butterfly would be nice.

Marisa: Can I get it anywhere I like?

Elise: Of course you can....within reason.

Marisa: Well I want to get a butterfly tattoo on my cleavage.  You said I could get it anywhere I want and since I don't have any cleavage that means I get breast implants!!

Elise: Ha!  Nice try!  Of course you can have a butterfly tattoo on your cleavage, WHEN YOU GROW YOUR OWN!

I didn't really realize that Marisa had sort of lived on her own a third time last night until after we'd logged off and I thought about the RP.  I didn't go into much of the details of the breast implant conversation, but Marisa was very emotional about it.  It was more about Marisa's not developing as quickly as a lot of the other girls in her class because she's a year younger and that every girl develops differently at a different pace, but Marisa was really angry.  She was yelling about how it wasn't fair and how everyone hated her because she didn't have breasts.  She was angry, frustration and had a swirl of emotions I didn't recognize.

After we'd logged, I realized that Marisa was really, genuinely upset about her lack of breasts and I really wondered what that was all about.  It was about me.  I had sort of a late puberty that seemed to me kind of truncated.  I grew taller, but never filled out.  I can't grow a beard, moustache or sideburns. and have no hair at all on my chest or back.  I do have to shave every three or four days or I start to look scraggly.  Facial and chest hair are obvious and outward signs of adult masculinity.  Breasts are outward and obvious signs of adult femininity.  I never even talked to anyone about what did not happen with my puberty, not doctors, not parents, not friends, not even my wife and if other people notice they don't say anything.  I thought I never was angry about it, never sad, never frustrated.  I realize now that I was, just never allowed myself to feel it.  Marisa's coming alive is helping me learn things about myself.

Well, this is it for today.  For those of you who've said you'd like to see updates, hope this is what you had in mind.

M. 

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Mysteriann wrote:

I received a message from her yesterday morning saying that breasts are something that are very important to a woman and that most women spend a lot of time thinking about their own breasts.  That most women she knew were not satisfied with their breasts, that the well-endowed want to be smaller, flat-chested women want to be bigger, or they don't like the shape.  She said not all women of course, but many and perhaps most, snd that girls Marisa's age were starting to think about their bodies differently, so I needed to start thinking about my breasts.

It has not been my experience that breasts are very important to women. At least no more so than Mr. Wiggly is important to fellas. I see all the magazine headlines at the market checkout and wonder who reads that crap. My 92 year old neighbor thinks I should wear my hair longer and pad my bras. I told her I was toying with the idea of growing my hair long enough to stuff in my bra and she stopped mentioning it.

I fear you are going to get so caught up in the minutae of this RP that you'll miss the big picture. I don't think you can plan a scenario that will teach you what it's like. There's that old saying that life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans.

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Carole Franizzi wrote:

 

-
just a shame everyone (usually men though) seems to want to embrace the idea that it's natural for men to dominate and use aggression on women.


I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by the phrase I have underlined.  By "embrace," do you mean "use the idea as an excuse for their (wrong) actions?"


C: Yes, I meant exactly that.

 

 


Perrie Juran wrote:

Also, removing the idea of dominance or aggression from the equation, what about the concept that some if not many of us men were raised with, that we were responsible to take charge or lead in a monogamous relationship?  Do women naturally prefer a man who is decisive or indecisive?

 

C: What about the concept? Don't mean to sound rude, but that's their problem (and the women they lve with) if they've been brought up to think they should be in charge of another adult and their joint off-spring. It's not what I was brought up to believe in - I was taught to look after myself, and in a relationship to take half the responsibility.

 

 


Perrie Juran wrote:

I can't really speak for other times and places in history, I've not studied them in detail on this subject,  but I do know that we are living in a time where many of the traditional roles have been questioned and / or have changed.  And honestly, sometimes it can get confusing because it appears that the rules keep getting changed on us, both for men and for women.

C: I think, maybe, the transition from an old model of gender roles to a new has happened in such a short space of time (a few decades) in comparison to centuries and centuries of the 'old way', and that has left some men, brought up by old school men, very perplexed as to what's expected of them. If it's any consolation, women themselves are confused and stressed by attempting to be strong, independent, motherly, wifely, responsible, a sex goddess, etc, etc.

 

 

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Well, I'm not submissive, nor dominant, nor aggressive, nor a push-over. And I would never share my life with anyone who was submissive, dominant, aggressive or a push-over.

 

 

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Mysteriann

How to note you are becoming a true virtual female?

- Your inventory grows at an unprecedent pace
- You have more shoes in your inventory than anything else
- You actually enjoy a dance or flirt with a men in a club
- You know each and every pick up line
- You change outfit several times a day
- You start ignoring "Hi, sexy girl" Ims
- You have a long mute list

Anything else?

Carol

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carolinestravels wrote:

Mysteriann

How to note you are becoming a true virtual female?

- Your inventory grows at an unprecedent pace

- You have more shoes in your inventory than anything else

- You actually enjoy a dance or flirt with a men in a club

- You know each and every pick up line

- You change outfit several times a day

- You start ignoring "Hi, sexy girl" Ims

- You have a long mute list

 

 

Anything else?

Carol

Start calling the general male population idiots

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Carole Franizzi wrote:

Well, I'm not submissive, nor dominant, nor aggressive, nor a push-over. And I would never share my life with anyone who was submissive, dominant, aggressive or a push-over.

I agree if we're talking about overall character, but I'd easily share my life with someone who exhibited each of those behaviors... at the the right times.

;-)

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Carole Franizzi wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Carole Franizzi wrote:

 

-
just a shame everyone (usually men though) seems to want to embrace the idea that it's natural for men to dominate and use aggression on women.


I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by the phrase I have underlined.  By "embrace," do you mean "use the idea as an excuse for their (wrong) actions?"


C: Yes, I meant exactly that.

 

 

Perrie Juran wrote:

Also, removing the idea of dominance or aggression from the equation, what about the concept that some if not many of us men were raised with, that we were responsible to take charge or lead in a monogamous relationship?  Do women naturally prefer a man who is decisive or indecisive?

 

C: What about the concept? Don't mean to sound rude, but that's their problem (and the women they lve with) if they've been brought up to think they should be in charge of another adult and their joint off-spring. It's not what I was brought up to believe in - I was taught to look after myself, and in a relationship to take half the responsibility.

 

 

Perrie Juran wrote:

I can't really speak for other times and places in history, I've not studied them in detail on this subject,  but I do know that we are living in a time where many of the traditional roles have been questioned and / or have changed.  And honestly, sometimes it can get confusing because it appears that the rules keep getting changed on us, both for men and for women.

C: I think, maybe, the transition from an old model of gender roles to a new has happened in such a short space of time (a few decades) in comparison to centuries and centuries of the 'old way', and that has left some men, brought up by old school men, very perplexed as to what's expected of them. If it's any consolation, women themselves are confused and stressed by attempting to be strong, independent, motherly, wifely, responsible, a sex goddess, etc, etc.

 

 

I was raised in an "old school" home though I would never describe my Father as being aggressive.  Posibly as dominate.  He was clearly the "head of the house" and his word was final.  On the other side of that equation, he was kind and caring and worked hard to take care of my Mother and to see that we (our family) had what we needed. 

Later on after I had moved out I did watch them change, my Mother 'taking a stand' (I don't know a better phrase) about some things that were important to her and my Father responding positively to that.  One thing that never changed was that my Mother saw her role in the relationship as my Father's support person, that her primary role was to support my Father in his endeavors.

Me, I joined the "tune in, turn on, drop out" movement.  Unfortunatly in that there was still a lot of objectifying of women going on under the guise of "free love."  We traded one set of problems for another.  But also for many of us there was a lot of learning and growing going on.

I know it is obvious to say although sometimes I get the impression it is not always obvious to people that what we all (yes, I know I'm using that dirty word 'all') want is to be happy in our relationships with others.  It can be challenging at times because so many have different expectations in a relationship. 

I'm glad to be part of a time where women are not carte blanche being relegated to the role of second class citizens and that where that is being done to women that it is being challenged.

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Carole Franizzi wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Carole Franizzi wrote:

 

-
just a shame everyone (usually men though) seems to want to embrace the idea that it's natural for men to dominate and use aggression on women.


I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by the phrase I have underlined.  By "embrace," do you mean "use the idea as an excuse for their (wrong) actions?"


C: Yes, I meant exactly that.

 

 

Perrie Juran wrote:

Also, removing the idea of dominance or aggression from the equation, what about the concept that some if not many of us men were raised with, that we were responsible to take charge or lead in a monogamous relationship?  Do women naturally prefer a man who is decisive or indecisive?

 

C: What about the concept? Don't mean to sound rude, but that's their problem (and the women they lve with) if they've been brought up to think they should be in charge of another adult and their joint off-spring. It's not what I was brought up to believe in - I was taught to look after myself, and in a relationship to take half the responsibility.

 

 

Perrie Juran wrote:

I can't really speak for other times and places in history, I've not studied them in detail on this subject,  but I do know that we are living in a time where many of the traditional roles have been questioned and / or have changed.  And honestly, sometimes it can get confusing because it appears that the rules keep getting changed on us, both for men and for women.

C: I think, maybe, the transition from an old model of gender roles to a new has happened in such a short space of time (a few decades) in comparison to centuries and centuries of the 'old way', and that has left some men, brought up by old school men, very perplexed as to what's expected of them. If it's any consolation, women themselves are confused and stressed by attempting to be strong, independent, motherly, wifely, responsible, a sex goddess, etc, etc.

 

 

I was raised in an "old school" home though I would never describe my Father as being aggressive.  Posibly as dominate.  He was clearly the "head of the house" and his word was final.  On the other side of that equation, he was kind and caring and worked hard to take care of my Mother and to see that we (our family) had what we needed. 

Later on after I had moved out I did watch them change, my Mother 'taking a stand' (I don't know a better phrase) about some things that were important to her and my Father responding positively to that.  One thing that never changed was that my Mother saw her role in the relationship as my Father's support person, that her primary role was to support my Father in his endeavors.

Me, I joined the "tune in, turn on, drop out" movement.  Unfortunatly in that there was still a lot of objectifying of women going on under the guise of "free love."  We traded one set of problems for another.  But also for many of us there was a lot of learning and growing going on.

I know it is obvious to say although sometimes I get the impression it is not always obvious to people that what we all (yes, I know I'm using that dirty word 'all') want is to be happy in our relationships with others.  It can be challenging at times because so many have different expectations in a relationship. 

I'm glad to be part of a time where women are not carte blanche being relegated to the role of second class citizens and that where that is being done to women that it is being challenged.

Perrie, I'll guess my parents are of the same generation as yours (Dad 1920, Mom 1928). I'm two generations behind them (1970). I grew up in a bit of a time warp as a result. I wasn't conscious of it at the time, but I witnessed a back and forth relationship between my parents that, in retrospect, was remarkably egalitatian. Dad had a one-man consulting business, run from home. I'd say he operated as the CTO of McMasters Inc. Mom handled the finances, the scheduling and the task of making Dad seem more "professional" than was his nature. I'd say she was the CFO/COO.

It really seemed to me that they shared the CEO position, and had equal seats on the board. Dad was certainly the most charismatic of us, but after his passing, Mom stepped into the light. I saw gender differences, but they were incidental, not central to their characters. Both were exceptionally playful and I think that revealed their underlying complexity.

They had their challenges, but clearly understood the obvious thing that you (and I) sometimes feel needs explaining. They both wanted to be happy in their relationship. And Carole is right that nobody is immune from confusion over rapidly changing social norms. You can either run away from that uncertaintly, or "embrace" it. I was raised to embrace it.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Mysteriann wrote:

I received a message from her yesterday morning saying that breasts are something that are very important to a woman and that most women spend a lot of time thinking about their own breasts.  That most women she knew were not satisfied with their breasts, that the well-endowed want to be smaller, flat-chested women want to be bigger, or they don't like the shape.  She said not all women of course, but many and perhaps most, snd that girls Marisa's age were starting to think about their bodies differently, so I needed to start thinking about my breasts.

It has not been my experience that breasts are very important to women. At least no more so than Mr. Wiggly is important to fellas. I see all the magazine headlines at the market checkout and wonder who reads that crap. My 92 year old neighbor thinks I should wear my hair longer and pad my bras. I told her I was toying with the idea of growing my hair long enough to stuff in my bra and she stopped mentioning it.

I fear you are going to get so caught up in the minutae of this RP that you'll miss the big picture. I don't think you can plan a scenario that will teach you what it's like. There's that old saying that life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans.

I don't know, I think it really depends on the woman for that one.  I know that when I'm getting ready to go to a club in real life, I'll put on shirts and think that my boobs look too small in them and then I'll change to a more flattering shirt.  While it's not something I think about constantly, it is something that I think about from time to time. (36B for anyone wondering, I'm naturally skinny though)

Though I really wouldn't want to get implants because I think that they would feel like having a fat lip, but only in your chest.  It would be like this lump of junk in your chest that would feel odd or something.  Not the mention the fact that they are at least $6k USD for both, and that's a bottom of the barrel price from what I have heard.  ><  Not only that, they need maintenance and stuff once in a while, depending on which type of implant you get.

Back on point though, I guess it really depends on the woman and the situation at the time on if it's something that we are really concerned with or not.

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