What's up with all the viewer problems? Can't get anything to work but Phoenix.

[Belinda Cifuentes]

I've been on SL for over 4 years now and that may be coming to an end. Will you stick with SL if you can't get a working viewer?

Hardly ever had problems with Viewer 1. Viewer 2 started ok, then one of the updates started crashing consistently so I switched to Phoenix. I can count the times on my fingers that I've suffered crashes with Phoenix. It's worked great! But now that's not going to being supported any longer with the new server side issues coming soon and will basically be non-functional.

Downloaded and installed the latest Firestorm. Crashed immediately upon opening snapshots or preferences or even teleporting. Same thing with the latest official Second Life viewer. So too with Singularity. These were not region log out issues or connectivity problems.

The thing is I meet or exceed all the minimum requirements - that Linden Labs says is needed anyway. My drivers are current. My net connection is stable. I have 6 GB of RAM. 2.4GHz machine using Windows Vista. Computer is in fine shape. It's a 64-bit machine but, as I understand from postings, other users use 64-bit with no issues.

If one needs to start having a degree in computer sciences to play Second Life, then it may be time to throw in the towel.

 

=====================================================

 

Thank you all for the responses:

To PuttanaChic:

With both Firestorm and the SL viewer, logging on is successful, but then it almost immediately crashes within about a minute or sooner, especially if I go to certain tabs on the 'preference' screen or try to TP.

With Singularity, it appears to login and then immediately crashes (never had Singularity installed previously). I had never before installed Firestorm either (although have left Phoenix alone, since that's the only way right now I can log on and use SL at all).

To Dresden Ceriano:

Yes, I did read all the instructions. Haven't yet gone about asking the support group. but will, although not optimistic about success.

To Rolig Loon:

My Dell XPS is just over four years old. It's very good at multi-tasking with software, but the crashes occur even without anything else major operating. By comparison, while using Phoenix, I can also be watching YouTube, have a dozen browser windows open, be number crunching on Excel, using photoshop software, playing music on MediaPlayer and not have the thing give a hiccup.

My DSL connection is reliable 99% of the time and I have no other connectivity issues. I've rebooted the router and it otherwise holds a steady connection for pretty much anything else (youtube, news site videos, I've watched 2-hr streaming movies on it). Not using anything wireless. Cables are all good. I keep the machine pretty clean; it doesn't get abused.

Graphics card is a Nvidia GeForce GTX 280. I'd have no qualms about spending a little bit of money on a different graphics card if I knew that was the issue and that it would solve the problem. "System requirements" says you need a "NVIDIA GeForce 6600 or better." But the best as I can tell from reading the web is that my graphics card is a "10th generation" Nvidia, far exceeding Linden Labs stated requirements (6600 being a "6th'' generation card).

A more detailed system requirement page with a comprehensive list of all known processors, drivers, etc. that are know to work would be much more helpful. It really isn't that difficult. I would think the tech-savy employees of LL could have such a page updated and posted in a day or so. But it could help many users much more easily diagnose problems.

Dell tech support recently made sure I did in fact have the most recent drivers installed. So I was able to rule that out as a problem. They also confirmed that my processor is SSE2-compliant.

I can try hooking it up to a cable connection, an expense that is OK if I knew it would solve the problem. It's more of a pain that anything else in doing that, not to mention I'll have to bribe my roommate's kid brother for the favor in helping me re-sort cables, routers, update my email configurations, etc., and change it all back if that doesn't solve the problem. I suppose I can throw my dignity to the wind and start with oh pretty pretty pleases, strip down to the barest of necessities and get his help for the half day or so it will take to do all that.

Same with the router and modem, not a big cost but I kind of feel it might be a useless stab in the dark.

I have no idea if anti-virus software could be an issue, but if it was why initially an OK connection with the official viewer and Firestorm until I tried to do certain things (such as changing preferences)?

I do feel Linden Labs could do a much better job on noting the system requirement end, perhaps even listing which systems perform the better. As you indicated, computers do become outdated and sooner or later we all need to upgrade for issues beyond a mere game.

For example, LL states compatibility is uncertain with ''NVIDIA cards that report as Quadro''. Like, what the hell is that supposed to mean? Why not just list those graphics cards instead? Is that really so hard for LL to do?

I realize Linden Labs wants to pursue upgrades which are intended to make SL more usuable and enjoyable. But at the same time maybe the tech department people need to have better communication with the business end of things because if there's a big drop-off in user activity because of viewer problems that impacts the bottom line.

For every user like me who posts a plea for help how many just give up on SL altogether? How many users will SL lose when the switch occurs in a week or so, 5%, 10%?

Expecting people to upgrade from fairly high-end computers that seem to easily exceed stated system requirements every few years isn't a business model for retaining customers. Would anyone buy a brand new expensive TV every two years if their cable provider said they won't be able to watch anything unless they upgraded it? That would not be a successful business model.

And while it great that you and others graciously help others with suggestions (I and do appreciate everyone's answers, it does help with the process of elimination), the truth is it's Linden Labs who should be doing that or at the very least making self-diagnosis and trouble-shooting easier.

=====================================================

UPDATED 7/7/13

Rolig, I appreciate the follow-up response. Thank you.

I read the links you suggested and configued Norton to "Allow" the viewers as opposed to "Auto.''

(Phoenix had been set to "Auto." - I left that setting alone.)

Also did another re-install of Firestorm (keeping the old Phoenix viewer in its own "Phoenix" folder - just in case).

On one try I was able to stay in one place for about 30 minutes. I was able to be on long enough to notice that the lag meter was flashing yellow and red under Network, with it saying ''connection pint time is 300-600 ms, possible bad conneciton or file sharing app.'' Client and Server were green.

I was able to TP, chat, check my preference settings, take a few hi res snapshots. But eventually it crashed during a RP, so I switched to Phoenix to continue before logging off for the evening.

I was able to talk to a Norton help specialist today who showed me how to turn off, what LL refered to on the "Using Second Life with a firewall" page as "internet worm protection" under Norton settings.

Apparently, Norton doesn't call it by that term anymore in Norton 360. No wonder all the ''help'' pages on the WWW with detailed instructions about what to do and where to go to do that in the Norton software setings were useless. It's now apparently called SONAR and after disabling the "smart firewall'' I was able to then log on using Firestorm and had a stable connection for well over an hour before voluntarily signing off. Conducted snapshots, TP, preference checking, changing appearances, chatting, group chatting.

So your suspicions look right on. I'll of course know more once the actually LL changes occur this week for viewing avatars and see if problems still persist after that. Also, have to remember that certain firewall settings are now disabled when using SL so caution needs to be excercised (meaning forget about checking email and using any but the most trusted internet sites).

It never ceases to amaze me how much more help and assistance one can receive from members of the Second Life extended community instead of directly from Linden Labs.

It may be a bit staff-intensive to do at first, but LL really should have a better problem-solving "handbook" of sorts. As you said, there are quite a number of CPUs, graphics cards, firewall software and such out there. I don't know how much they budget for technical help, but most people can get by with step-by-step, detailed instructions. I stuck with this and with the help of you, others here who offered tips and links and Dell and Norton technicians I spoke to on the phone, was able to (hopefully, crosses fingers) solve this.

How many users would have just given up? Who knows. But hopefully LL hasn't underestimated the impact of this change over and loss of users. If they have, it doesn't just hurt their bottom line, it hurts all of us. We all want LL to be robust and profitable and the more users the better.

(And hopefully, all the latest viewers won't be obsolete in a month or two. When I buy word processing or editing software or update or buy a new computer, I expect it to last and be farily current for several years.)

[PuttanaChic]

Hello, 
i'm having some issue with viewer crash too, iwould like ask you, just to make sure if it for same reason?
Do you log online successfuly and after 1minute30~2minute viewer crash?

i'm having this since yesterday, i uninstalled n' Reinstalled most all viewer like you did "As clean install" and nothing is working.

well, and it seem there's no so many same trouble, not so easy to identify this issue.

 

well, so it is ithe same trouble you have?
Thanks.
Tahiya

[Rolig Loon]

It's very hard to diagnose problems like yours.  Viewers do make a difference.  As the basic code in viewers and servers has become more complicated over the years, some older computers have not been able to perform as well in SL as they used to.  People with problems have tried to stick with simpler viewers as long as they are available, but there are limits.  Within the past week we have had an anguished note here from a person whose 10+ year old computer is not SSE2-compliant and will not be able to enter SL once the oldest version of Phoenix goes away.  Sooner or later, we're all in that situation.

Still, it's not all about how old your computer is. The biggest source of the problems people complain about here is their Internet connection, and the most common problem is their router.  Routers need to be rebooted regularly to clear their RAM.  Routers get old and develop chronic problems.  And not all routers are created equal. Some are more robust, others have problems holding a steady connection.  A router's weaknesses are most evident if you are using wireless, which is more prone to interference anyway. Good routers are still inexpensive enough that it makes sense to replace yours when you buy a new computer, or every three years, whichever comes first. Beyond the router, there are possible loose cable connections or damaged cables, plus problems in the connections to and beyond your ISP.

For every person who has chronic problems with crashing or disconnecting in SL, there are dozens who rarely have trouble at all, regardless of how new and powerful their equipment is.  I'm still running on Win XP with a GeForce 9800 graphics card on a computer than I've had since 2009, and I rarely crash.  Other than routine maintenance (cleaning its innards with a can of air once a month, checking my cables, and rebooting the router.... ), I'm not doing anything magical.  Yet I know that other people who have some newer machines and claim to be more tech-savvy than I am have problems.  I can't explain it. 

This is long for a non-answer, and I apologize. I hear your frustration.  The best I can offer is that if you are having problems with all viewers, the viewers themselves are probably not the cause.  Collectively, yes, they are demanding more of your computer and Internet connections than viewers used to, but the issue is most likely that your machine just isn't up to the task of running them. 

[Dresden Ceriano]

Try working through the instructions on this page... link.  If that doesn't help, ask in the Firestorm Support group... link.

...Dres

[Brooke Valimedzic]

i'm totally having the same problems....the SL viewer lets me log on for a few min but firestorm wont even log me on....all started yesterday....after 4 years of zero login issues on the same machine meeting the proper requirements now I cant log on and enjoy SL....

 

 

[Rolig Loon]

Updated response:

Thank you for your very thoughtful and detailed reply.  It does indeed sound as if your computer is more than capable of handling any of the current SL viewers, including Firestorm.  I agree that the System Requirements page can be a less than helpful guide.  We have fretted over that among ourselves for a long time.  The only thing I can say in Linden Lab's defense is that it would be virtually impossible to maintain a list of the thousands of graphics cards and CPUs that will work in SL, and only slightly easier to list the ones that won't work.  Im glad that I don't have that responsibility (or any other.  I'm happy being a non-Linden.)

Thank you especially for providing a couple of specific clues.  If you crash or disconnect when you teleport or change things in Preferences, that suggests a problem with either a firewall or an antivirus routine.  Teleporting, in particular, involves sending a short burst with a lot of data as your avatar is being transfered from one SL server to another.  It's a stressful moment, when failure is more likely than usual. 

It's possible that you either made exceptions for Phoenix in your AV and firewall programs without remembering that you did it, or maybe that Phoenix maganged to sneak in under their radar.  If you are on a college campus, the IT department may have introduced its own restrictions that are causing trouble for you now.  It is quite common for colleges to block or throttle heavy bandwidth users as a way of conserving system resources for people who need the Internet for studying. 

Take a look at http://community.secondlife.com/t5/English-Knowledge-Base/Using-Second-Life-with-a-firewall/ta-p/1304539 and at http://wiki.phoenixviewer.com/antivirus_whitelisting .

I am not quite shooting in the dark here, but your situation is not an easy one to understand.  This is a busy time for the Firestorm support staff, as Server Side Appearance is on the horizon, but I suggest that you ask for their help in the in-world support group too.  Try and find a "quiet" time like 1:00 a.m.  :smileywink:

[lonewolf Michigan]

same here.....all viewers,once they load to "VFS," AND IT CRASHES.the old viewers work but all avatars are grey.......

my TOSHIBA VISTA is fine....plus I keep getting--ERROR---YOUR VERSION OF---WHATEVER----DOES NT5 KNOW HOW TO DISPLAY......WHATEVER...AND UNABLE TOUPLOADASSET

Been with you since  2008 and you going to cut me off just because I dont have Windows 7 or 8?

[Rolig Loon]

Actually, you shouldn't have had to disable Norton.   Just create an exception for your viewer's exe file in it.  The instructions are here.  Norton has a bad track record in SL.  Their software is overly vigilant and very unforgiving.  If you have their Anti-Virus, you should create an exception for your viedwer in it too.  Here's the information on that.  One of the big problems with Norton, in particular, is that by default it scans every downloaded file for viruses.  That means every single texture that your viewer downloads to cache gets scanned, slowing down your experience like crazy.  Once you create an exception, though, the problem goes away.

You can toss the Phoenix viewer now.  it is totally obsolete at this point.  Their developers pulled the plug almost a year ago, and the introduction of SSA a couple of months ago finally did the rest of the job.  You'll never see anything but pasty gray avatars with it.

[MAnthony33]

had vista on my laptop firestrom viewer 4.5.1 beta worked good then i upgraded to windows 7 now when i down loaded it with the same laptop but with windows 7 when i try to log on it starts to display the outer line of the viewer i can see firestrom viewer 4.5.1 beta in the top left hand side the middle of it is traspairent and a little white box pops up it says ok when i click on ok everything dispearsi cant use any viewer now and i am a memeber and cant play can you help user name MAnthony33 my name is mark phone nu. 567-239-2516 email markallen195@yahoo.com i had iyogi teck get in my laptop and they couldnt fix it idelete everything on my laptop that had sencondlife firestrom that i could find and try downloading it still dont work i updated windows 7 my drivers and still have this problem i need help                                                                                                                                                                                                          THANK YOU MAnthony33                                                                                                                                                                                             Mark Allen