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Privacy in Secondlife - Radar Woes


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Control-Alt-Click will allow you to look inside a closed room, with some difficulty. If you wanted to watch somebody in a dressing room it is do-able, but takes some time and you would have to know something worth seeing (to someone who likes seeing such things) is inside.

The "zoom in" feature in the "people" window of Firestorm makes it easy, and, for that reason, is more objectionable. There are many uses for the cntrl-alt-click feature, for example, to look at the middle person of a group, thereby seeing the whole group, or looking at someone you are talking to. It is primarily used to center your screen on an individual you can see anyway.

I really don't see a legitimate use for for the zoom in feature. Maybe someone can tell me.

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Czari Zenovka wrote:


Qwalyphi Korpov wrote:

First I want to say that some viewer radar dialogs have an option to "cam to" or "look at" a particular AVatar in the list.  So while the issue isn't totally radar it also isn't totally not radar.

 

I'd agree with this to the point of what the distance is.  I have used radar to have my camera zoom to a given person on the same sim, but if they are not within a certain distance radius (and I can't say how far that is, but I do know, for comparison that I've been inside a dance club and see a friend on radar who is outside the club or farther out on the sim; when I try to cam into my friend I get an "out of range" message.)  Without re-reading the OP, I *thought* the couple in question were far away on the sim from whoever was doing the camming.

Not sure if the distance in the radar is different on different viewers; I have only used it on pre-mesh Phoenix and yesterday with Singularity.

The cam to function is linked to your draw distance, so when you get the out of range message, you can raise your draw distance until they're within range... then you'll be able to cam to them.

...Dres

Ohhhh, that's good to know. :)  Well, that explains why, in the past, I kept getting out of range messages since I had to keep my draw distance at 64m.

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Perrie Juran wrote:

 

While granted the function in the people window made it easier, camming with alt/click has always been available and really not all that hard to use.
 

Fairly early in my SL...life...I learned about camming through walls.  As members of our IRC group came to SL I became one of the "designated mentors" for them.  I vividly recall standing outside the apartment I was renting at the time with two newcomers from IRC.  I thought they knew that buildings could be cammed into but I offhandedly mentioned it while explaining something else.  One of the women exclaimed, "You mean people can actually SEE us when we're inside?!?!?"

Thus their first lesson on non-privacy in SL.

Another one of those features that can be abused is the sitting on a prim and moving the prim through a wall trick.  Not a good idea to do this in a home one happens to come upon, but was a good way to get out of the old cage traps griefers used and one time when someone thought it was humorous to rez a yacht!!! in the middle of a maze, thus trapping everyone inside.

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AnnAdams wrote:

Control-Alt-Click will allow you to look inside a closed room, with some difficulty. If you wanted to watch somebody in a dressing room it is do-able, but takes some time and you would have to know something worth seeing (to someone who likes seeing such things) is inside.

The "zoom in" feature in the "people" window of Firestorm makes it easy, and, for that reason, is more objectionable. There are many uses for the cntrl-alt-click feature, for example, to look at the middle person of a group, thereby seeing the whole group, or looking at someone you are talking to. It is primarily used to center your screen on an individual you can see anyway.

I really don't see a legitimate use for for the zoom in feature. Maybe someone can tell me.

Let's see here ....

1. Tracking a user within a club/shop/park/etc who has been acting oddly (potential griefer).

2. Tracking a user who has been warned for their behavior at a club/sho/park/etc

3. Easily locate a friend who is on sim (either because they are lost or you have not been to the sim before)

4. Machinima wherein one user acts as the "camera", tracking the actual "star"

There we go - four "legitimate" uses of the Firestorm (and other client, mind you) radar lnked, camera "Zoom In"/"Cam Lock" function ... And I just rolled out of bed and have not had any coffee yet.

My point? You may not have a use for this function - others do and you are in no position to determine what is and is not a "Legitimate use" of said function. If this function was enough of a problem, Linden Lab would have demanded its removal long ago.

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Solar,

Since you list some legitimate uses for the "zoom in" feature, I agree that it should be kept.

I will continue to use the feature (in Firestorm, if not also in other viewers) that shows users who have camed you. If I am in a closed private room (such as a dressing room) and someone cams me, they will get an immediate not very nice IM.

Ann

 

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Thank you Ann. I do apologize for the tone of my earlier response ... To me, you came off in such a way that it pretty much triggered an automatic reaction of anger.

 

Just remember, people have legitimate uses for a lot of functions. even uses for functions that Linden Lab expressly forbids the use of.

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AnnAdams wrote:

Solar,

Since you list some legitimate uses for the "zoom in" feature, I agree that it should be kept.

I will continue to use the feature (in Firestorm, if not also in other viewers) that shows users who have camed you. If I am in a closed private room (such as a dressing room) and someone cams me, they will get an immediate not very nice IM.

Ann

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but not only does Firestorm let you see who is camming you, it also lets you stop people from being able to see who you are camming.  Just realize that nowhere is safe from people's prying eyes and learn to live with it.   Even private sims are not safe, since LL employees have the ability to travel anywhere invisibly and you would never know they were there... unless, of course, you were doing something that is not allowed by the TOS.

...Dres

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If you don't want to be cammed at home, go to "About land" > "Options" and uncheck the box saying "avatars on other parcels can see and chat with avatars on this parcel". Or ask your landlord to do it for you if you don't have the rights to do it yourself.  You will then appear to be invisible to anyone not in your parcel.

If you don't want to be cammed outside of your home, don't leave your home.

Those are the only ways, short of not logging in at all, to stop the sort of thing that happened.

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Marybeth Cooperstone wrote:

Ann Adams: "
.....
 someone cams me, they will get an immediate not very nice IM
.
"

You don't even have to be "not very nice" in your IM. The times I have been cammed when in a private place undressed I have just IMed "enjoying the view?" and the cammer immediately stops and either logs off or TPs away!

Not that I change clothes very often in places other than my home, I still always wear underwear and a bra in case of a SL clothing mishap so that I'm not totally naked.  Even in my home I keep the undies on while trying on outfits. ;)

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AnnAdams wrote:

 

I will continue to use the feature (in Firestorm, if not also in other viewers) that shows users who have camed you. If I am in a closed private room (such as a dressing room) and someone cams me, they will get an immediate not very nice IM.

Ann

 

If you look a little closer you see that you can switch off all target hints sent to other viewers. So you will NOT see if someone cams on you - well for those who switched that off.

That's a good thing btw. avoids all that whining and drama. :)

I could do the zoom functionality with a simple script in a simple hud ... could even set the camera focus point away so its hard to tell where the user really looks at. (no requests, not interested)

The visible focus points you mention are not the points someone is looking at. You can only draw conclusions where someone might look at. Someone can hook on you and watch the neighbour. So if you are not alone it is meaningless.

It's a feature that is in the system and you always can move the camera manually over large distances even with the linden viewer. Ok, many can not since they have no clue how to set up and control their camera :D

So get over it and accept that there is no privacy in sl. Only way to stay invisible is to set your parcel visibility off and kick everyone off your parcel that enters, since if someone is on the same parcel they can see you.

 

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Nova Convair wrote:


AnnAdams wrote:

 

...

 

... Only way to stay invisible is to set your parcel visibility off and kick everyone off your parcel that enters,
since if someone is on the same parcel they can see you.

 

I find that people inside the parcel and above the ban line height cannot see AVs in the parcel below that line.  The reverse if also the case so those below the ban line can't see those above. So it's necessary to keep everyone off the parcel above the ban lines if you're above the line. If you're below the ban line height it's only necessary to keep everyone who's inside the parcel above the ban line.  Which parcel access settings do pretty well.

I've only tested this with Singularity, Firestorm and the LL viewers.  Perhaps some other viewers defeat the design. 

edit to add Firestorm to the list.

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Qwalyphi Korpov wrote:


Nova Convair wrote:


AnnAdams wrote:

 

...

 

... Only way to stay invisible is to set your parcel visibility off and kick everyone off your parcel that enters,
since if someone is on the same parcel they can see you.

 

I find that people inside the parcel and above the ban line height cannot see AVs in the parcel below that line.  The reverse if also the case so those below the ban line can't see those above. So it's necessary to keep everyone off the parcel above the ban lines if you're above the line. If you're below the ban line height it's only necessary to keep everyone who's inside the parcel above the ban line.  Which parcel access settings do pretty well.

I've only tested this with Singularity, Firestorm and the LL viewers.  Perhaps some other viewers defeat the design. 

edit to add Firestorm to the list.

Wait a second please.  I own land on the mainland.  I stand in the middle at ground level.  I go to About Land -> Options and uncheck "Avatars on other parcels can see and chat with avatars on this parcel".  This will mean avatars on other parcels won't see me.  I then go to About Land -> Access and uncheck "Allow public access".  This will create ban lines that go up only yay-so-far.  If another avatar flies above those ban lines and then over onto my land, they can cam down, see my prims (because they're within draw distance) but they still *won't* see me?

Did something change with this feature?  I distinctly remember a while back someone started a thread and they were lamenting that you could cam down and see the avatar.  And other people were like (to paraphrase), "well duh, they're over your land that means they're on your parcel so they can see you".

 

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Hugsy Penguin wrote:


Qwalyphi Korpov wrote:


Nova Convair wrote:


AnnAdams wrote:

 

...

 

... Only way to stay invisible is to set your parcel visibility off and kick everyone off your parcel that enters,
since if someone is on the same parcel they can see you.

 

I find that people inside the parcel and above the ban line height cannot see AVs in the parcel below that line.  The reverse if also the case so those below the ban line can't see those above. So it's necessary to keep everyone off the parcel above the ban lines if you're above the line. If you're below the ban line height it's only necessary to keep everyone who's inside the parcel above the ban line.  Which parcel access settings do pretty well.

I've only tested this with Singularity, Firestorm and the LL viewers.  Perhaps some other viewers defeat the design. 

edit to add Firestorm to the list.

Wait a second please.  I own land on the mainland.  I stand in the middle at ground level.  I go to About Land -> Options and uncheck "Avatars on other parcels can see and chat with avatars on this parcel".  This will mean avatars on other parcels won't see me.  I then go to About Land -> Access and uncheck "Allow public access".  This will create ban lines that go up only yay-so-far.  If another avatar flies above those ban lines and then over onto my land, they can cam down, see my prims (because they're within draw distance) but they still *won't* see me?

Did something change with this feature?  I distinctly remember a while back someone started a thread and they were lamenting that you could cam down and see the avatar.  And other people were like (to paraphrase), "well duh, they're over your land that means they're on your parcel so they can see you".

 

I did my testing with the three viewers I mentioned.  It isn't necessary to turn on ban lines for the 'cloaking effect.'  If 'See & Talk to' is unchecked on a parcel then AVs on different sides of the Ban Line Height won't see each other.   Of course it's more convincing to actually test yourself in world.  Here's a little table showing who can see who:

Visibility logic.PNG

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Thanks.  The OP of the old thread was saying that if you uncheck See&Talk and uncheck public access, they were still able to fly above the ban lines and cam down to see the avatars.  This makes the See&Talk option pretty useless unless you also use a security orb to instantly eject people.  That would work, I guess, but it's a crappy solution IMO.

Your info is saying that's no longer the case which is very good news.  This is the way it should have always been.

I'll try to find some time to check it out for myself.

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Hugsy Penguin wrote:

Thanks.  The OP of the old thread was saying that if you uncheck See&Talk and uncheck public access, they were still able to fly above the ban lines and cam down to see the avatars.  This makes the See&Talk option pretty useless unless you also use a security orb to instantly eject people.  That would work, I guess, but it's a crappy solution IMO.

Your info is saying that's no longer the case which is very good news.  This is the way it should have always been.

I'll try to find some time to check it out for myself.

I don't know that the Orb has to be set for instant eject.  Unless someone has developed a good habit for dealing with eject warnings, getting one usually puts people into a mental scramble.

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