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Privacy in Secondlife - Radar Woes


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I use a very old Phoenix Viewer, on an even older computer.  I have had people talking about Radar to me for a while, but it's all passed me by, until yesterday.

Someone important in the Sim, was seen using Radar in his own skybox, at approximately 3000 feet up, on the far side of the Sim, engaged intimately with another woman.  Personally - it's nothing to do with me, but I got repeated reports, from Sim regulars, as there was concern for the feelings of a friend of mine who is interested him.  I even got given snapshots, which after the first one - I deleted and refused any others. All taken using the Radar thing.

I found this highly invasive, and told off all concerned, as it was consential and nothing to do with anyone - but this Radar thing made it all public.  I am actually quite surprised by it all.  I realise that there is, and has never really been, any real privacy in SL - but why on earth would you even need this feature?   And is there a way to stop its action?

 

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Want privacy? Don't log in.

Or get your own private sim. You could parcel and hide visibility, but people will still know you're there, just not what you're doing.

Radar has nothing to do with it, all viewers have minimaps, and all minimaps show dots on 'em.

So do the world maps.

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Jinnywitha Cleanslate wrote:

I use a very old Phoenix Viewer, on an even older computer.  I have had people talking about Radar to me for a while, but it's all passed me by, until yesterday.

Someone important in the Sim, was seen using Radar in his own skybox, at approximately 3000 feet up, on the far side of the Sim, engaged intimately with another woman.  Personally - it's nothing to do with me, but I got repeated reports, from Sim regulars, as there was concern for the feelings of a friend of mine who is interested him.  I even got given snapshots, which after the first one - I deleted and refused any others. All taken using the Radar thing.

I found this highly invasive, and told off all concerned, as it was consential and nothing to do with anyone - but this Radar thing made it all public.  I am actually quite surprised by it all.  I realise that there is, and has never really been, any real privacy in SL - but why on earth would you even need this feature?   And is there a way to stop its action?

 

This really has nothing to do with anything specific to Phoenix, the capability exists in all Viewers.  You just need to know how.

No, there is no way to stop someone from Camming you except for enabling Parcel Privacy, known as "Hiding Avatars,  for which you would need land rights to enable.

It may be possible to AR the person doing this for a Privacy Violation.  Under Privacy Rights in thw Wiki it states:

 

Possible privacy violations

Snapshots or video

Screenshots or video taken without permission, in an area where Residents reasonably expect privacy, might violate Linden Lab's rules against disclosure; or, more generally, might constitute harassment. To be safe, be sure to get explicit permission from anyone you photograph or record.

 

 

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Hi there, Jinny!  I was using the same Phoenix as you until yesterday (the last pre-mesh Phoenix viewer) and one of the options I loved on Phoenix (and assuming Firestorm) is the radar option.  As Perrie said, the radar feature has nothing to do with seeing people far away.  What it *does* do, among other things, and what I find really useful is when I've been in a busy sim and received an IM from someone and, on my old PC, couldn't see far enough to find the person.  With the radar I could double-click on the person's name and my camera would zoom right to that person; however, if someone was a certain distance away, I'm not sure how far but still on the sim, sometimes I would get the message that the person was out of range and would not cam to him.

What is likely happening is that whoever was checking the couple out had their camera distance disabled (or a setting something like that); it allows one to cam out much farther than the default setting.  I'm not quite sure how the following works, but I've heard that one can even use some method to see a person a sim or two away.  Iirc, if one cams on someone at the far end of the sim, somehow that person can be used as an "anchor" of sorts to then see the next sim, etc.  Or that might be all wrong.

Main point - the issue you describe isn't due to the radar feature.

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

Hi there, Jinny!  I was using the same Phoenix as you until yesterday (the last pre-mesh Phoenix viewer) and one of the options I loved on Phoenix (and assuming Firestorm) is the radar option.  As Perrie said, the radar feature has nothing to do with seeing people far away.  What it *does* do, among other things, and what I find really useful is when I've been in a busy sim and received an IM from someone and, on my old PC, couldn't see far enough to find the person.  With the radar I could double-click on the person's name and my camera would zoom right to that person; however, if someone was a certain distance away, I'm not sure how far but still on the sim, sometimes I would get the message that the person was out of range and would not cam to him.

What is likely happening is that whoever was checking the couple out had their camera distance disabled (or a setting something like that); it allows one to cam out much farther than the default setting.  I'm not quite sure how the following works, but I've heard that one can even use some method to see a person a sim or two away.  Iirc, if one cams on someone at the far end of the sim, somehow that person can be used as an "anchor" of sorts to then see the next sim, etc.  Or that might be all wrong.

Main point - the issue you describe isn't due to the radar feature.

If you disable camera constraints, you can option/alt-click on visible targets to leapfrog your way just about anywhere. I've cammed across at least a couple sims this way. It's far faster than any other means of navigating about.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Czari Zenovka wrote:

Hi there, Jinny!  I was using the same Phoenix as you until yesterday (the last pre-mesh Phoenix viewer) and one of the options I loved on Phoenix (and assuming Firestorm) is the radar option.  As Perrie said, the radar feature has nothing to do with seeing people far away.  What it *does* do, among other things, and what I find really useful is when I've been in a busy sim and received an IM from someone and, on my old PC, couldn't see far enough to find the person.  With the radar I could double-click on the person's name and my camera would zoom right to that person; however, if someone was a certain distance away, I'm not sure how far but still on the sim, sometimes I would get the message that the person was out of range and would not cam to him.

What is likely happening is that whoever was checking the couple out had their camera distance disabled (or a setting something like that); it allows one to cam out much farther than the default setting.  I'm not quite sure how the following works, but I've heard that one can even use some method to see a person a sim or two away.  Iirc, if one cams on someone at the far end of the sim, somehow that person can be used as an "anchor" of sorts to then see the next sim, etc.  Or that might be all wrong.

Main point - the issue you describe isn't due to the radar feature.

If you disable camera constraints, you can option/alt-click on visible targets to leapfrog your way just about anywhere. I've cammed across at least a couple sims this way. It's far faster than any other means of navigating about.

Yep, that's what I was trying to say. :)

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The paranoid amongst us always assume we're being watched anyway, so it doesn't come as any surprise that someone has been using a radar device to cam around the sim.

Although sim owners can't prevent people looking, rules can be set down in notecards, and anyone violating can be banned. 

I find the radar feature great for locating people who want to be found, or the 'harmless-light-legal' brigade. Its a feature I don't especially need, but it sure does make SL more interesting to me.

I think there are many features in SL that please or p1ss of people in equal measure.  In a virtual world where shared experiences are a key feature, privacy unfortunately isn't really going to be a high priority. 

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I know privacy isn't in existance in SL - I think I was just surprised how people cammed in on the couple at that distance, and such visual clarity, and wondered if there was anything that could be done to prevent that - but you've all answered that beautifully.  Lol.  Thank you.


I think I will just IM the couple involved and give them a heads up, in case they were as oblivious to Radar as I was.  Lol. 

 

Thanks for the replies.

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Jinnywitha Cleanslate wrote:

I know privacy isn't in existance in SL - I think I was just surprised how people cammed in on the couple at that distance, and such visual clarity, and wondered if there was anything that could be done to prevent that - but you've all answered that beautifully.  Lol.  Thank you.

 

I think I will just IM the couple involved and give them a heads up, in case they were as oblivious to Radar as I was.  Lol. 

 

Thanks for the replies.

Tell the landowner to enable parcel privacy, then it won't be a problem. People can cam in all they want, unless they're on the parcel they *shouldn't be able to see them. I say should because, it's sl, god knows when things will or won't work properly.

Although I think the more pressing matter is why you have a friend so obsessed about someone they'd cam in on them at all, much less during intimate moments. That's just creepy. People like that scare me, and I'm guessing the dude your friend is camming is probably better off far, far away from that sort of creep.

I guess stalker is the new black..?

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As everyone has told you there is no real privacy in sl. The most privacy is to be on an estate region and set it to non public. You can also in parcel settings, make sure that you don't have the box ticked that says "see and chat with other residents on this parcel" avatars wont show up just objects. However; there is a 80M limit I believe if someone is flying over the parcel they can see you. Dots on a map or names on radar aren't the same as someone camming in on avatars, but people will be people and there is only so much you can do. I wouldn' let it bother me too much as it's my avatar they are seeing, creepy as it is what they are doing, but it's not my rl window ;)

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Jinnywitha Cleanslate wrote:

I know privacy isn't in existance in SL - I think I was just surprised how people cammed in on the couple at that distance, and such visual clarity, and wondered if there was anything that could be done to prevent that - but you've all answered that beautifully.  Lol.  Thank you.

 

I think I will just IM the couple involved and give them a heads up, in case they were as oblivious to Radar as I was. 
Lol. 

 

Thanks for the replies.

 

I think I'd not IM them - ignorance is bliss and all that. LOL

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ImaTest wrote:

 

Although I think the more pressing matter is why you have a friend so obsessed about someone they'd cam in on them at all, much less during intimate moments. That's just creepy. People like that scare me, and I'm guessing the dude your friend is camming is probably better off far, far away from that sort of creep.

I guess stalker is the new black..?

When I first began SL and the highest altitude one could put a structure was...600m or something like that (?) my former partner and I regularly had "high flyers" hovering around our house.  Some of them were amusing, like the ones that kept banging into the windows like birds that don't see glass.  I typically pulled up the profiles of anyone who got within a certain range of our house and on one guy's profile that was hovering around he had multiple groups associated with being a voyeur.  I had no idea those groups existed in SL!

It was after that profile that we invested in a security orb.  That didn't keep people from "voyeuring" from a distance, but as long as they weren't near our house - out of sight, out of mind. ;)

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

When I first began SL and the highest altitude one could put a structure was...600m or something like that (?) my former partner and I regularly had "high flyers" hovering around our house.  Some of them were amusing, like the ones that kept banging into the windows like birds that don't see glass.  I typically pulled up the profiles of anyone who got within a certain range of our house and on one guy's profile that was hovering around he had multiple groups associated with being a voyeur.  I had no idea those groups existed in SL!

It was after that profile that we invested in a security orb.  That didn't keep people from "voyeuring" from a distance, but as long as they weren't near our house - out of sight, out of mind.
;)

My SL partner and I shared a 1/4 homestead island. We didn't have an orb, but we had estate rights, so we could ban folks easily. Voyeurism wasn't as much an issue as squatters. I'd often log in to find people using our hammock or bed. I'd used the MLP engine to put poses in them, and used only two animations from the standard set. A side by side reclining pose for the hammock and "spoon" for the bed. I left all the other animations in each, but I reset their positions so that if anyone tried any of the sex animations, they'd end up separate bushes behind our hut, or in the trees over the hammock.

I got the idea from my partner's first house (which was my introduction to SL and thoroughly amazed me). Shortly after moving in, I decided to log in early and sit on everything in the house to see what it did (I still sit on everything in sight). I tried the bathroom shower, which showed promise, then the commode, which posed me as you'd expect, but outside in the back yard, floating in mid-air next to a tree right outside the bedroom window. When my partner logged in, she had to wander around the house to find me while I explained that I'd tried the commode and found it interesting. When she finally spotted me, I asked if she was amused.

She was.

Oh, I dearly miss those noob days.

 

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Kenbro Utu wrote:


Jinnywitha Cleanslate wrote:

...Radar in his own skybox, at approximately 3000 feet up, on the far side of the Sim, engaged intimately with another woman.  

 

It's called Radar Love!


Yeah yeah yeah.  No privacy in SL.  We got that covered.  I'm just blown away by this video.  I've heard this song many times before but never saw the official video until now.  I always envisioned some guy in a hot rod racing to hook up with his woman.  But, in stead, they make a joke out of it by having some jackwad driving in a Reliant Robin.  That totally blows my mind, LOL!  It reminds me of when Jeremy Clarkson drove one:

 

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First I want to say that some viewer radar dialogs have an option to "cam to" or "look at" a particular AVatar in the list.  So while the issue isn't totally radar it also isn't totally not radar.

Now regarding the parcel option for "Avatar on other parcels can see and chat with avatars on this parcel."

In the interest of science I've done a tiny bit of testing.

  • Set parcel access to group only
  • un-check Avatar on other parcel can see and chat with avatars on this parcel.
  • login a group member (M)
  • login a group non-member (NM)

I put non-member (NM) inside the parcel above the "ban line" height (BLH) of approx 110 meters.  NM can see the M while he is also inside the parcel and above the "ban line" height.  When M drops below the BLH or moves out of the parcel he vanishes.  Camming down I can see objects but not the avatar M.  The same things happen when a group member takes the place of the non member.

Dats confusing huh?  Group members below the BLH will not be visible to anyone outside the parcel.  They are also not visible to anyone inside the parcel above the BLH.  That includes group members.

So the visibility thing works pretty well below the BLH.  About that height you need to keep prying eyes out of the parcel. 

Final point of potential drama: You may know what you mean to imply by "engaged intimately with."  I found out in another thread that to some people that means "PG poses in a hot tub"  I mention that because if you're talking about "adult activities" rather than behaviour appropriate for eight year old children then there are TOS requirements that your important to the SIM person likely has violated.

 

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Qwalyphi Korpov wrote:

First I want to say that some viewer radar dialogs have an option to "cam to" or "look at" a particular AVatar in the list.  So while the issue isn't totally radar it also isn't totally not radar.

 

I'd agree with this to the point of what the distance is.  I have used radar to have my camera zoom to a given person on the same sim, but if they are not within a certain distance radius (and I can't say how far that is, but I do know, for comparison that I've been inside a dance club and see a friend on radar who is outside the club or farther out on the sim; when I try to cam into my friend I get an "out of range" message.)  Without re-reading the OP, I *thought* the couple in question were far away on the sim from whoever was doing the camming.

Not sure if the distance in the radar is different on different viewers; I have only used it on pre-mesh Phoenix and yesterday with Singularity.

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I have been in dressing rooms and other closed private places and had people cam me while I was wearing partially made lingerie (for example, a bra with only the outline, boobs exposed. I didn't like it, but in SL I have come to expect it. I know that in RL sometimes perverts have holes in dressing room or bathroom walls for peeping. I like that even less. Fortunately it is rare.

I have no problem with people camming me when I am within sight, but at a distance. It is just that the "zoom in" feature (on Firestorm, I assume it is similar on other viewers) allows one to cam in to people who are not in view, such as in a closed room. That is a feature that I could do without.

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Marybeth Cooperstone wrote:

<snip>

I have no problem with people camming me when I am within sight, but at a distance. It is just that the "zoom in" feature (on Firestorm, I assume it is similar on other viewers) allows one to cam in to people who are not in view, such as in a closed room. That is a feature that I could do without.

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your POV), to remove the ability to Cam someone would also require removing the ability to Cam around in general in SL.

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Czari Zenovka wrote:


Qwalyphi Korpov wrote:

First I want to say that some viewer radar dialogs have an option to "cam to" or "look at" a particular AVatar in the list.  So while the issue isn't totally radar it also isn't totally not radar.

 

I'd agree with this to the point of what the distance is.  I have used radar to have my camera zoom to a given person on the same sim, but if they are not within a certain distance radius (and I can't say how far that is, but I do know, for comparison that I've been inside a dance club and see a friend on radar who is outside the club or farther out on the sim; when I try to cam into my friend I get an "out of range" message.)  Without re-reading the OP, I *thought* the couple in question were far away on the sim from whoever was doing the camming.

Not sure if the distance in the radar is different on different viewers; I have only used it on pre-mesh Phoenix and yesterday with Singularity.

The cam to function is linked to your draw distance, so when you get the out of range message, you can raise your draw distance until they're within range... then you'll be able to cam to them.

...Dres

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"Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your POV), to remove the ability to Cam someone would also require removing the ability to Cam around in general in SL"

The only thing I object to is the "Zoom In" feature on the right button using the "People" window (in Firestorm, maybe other names in other viewers).

AFAIK, that is the only way to cam into someone in a closed room, such as a dressing room.

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Marybeth Cooperstone wrote:

"
Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your POV), to remove the ability to Cam someone would also require removing the ability to Cam around in general in SL"

The only thing I object to is the "Zoom In" feature on the right button using the "People" window (in Firestorm, maybe other names in other viewers).

AFAIK, that is the only way to cam into someone in a closed room, such as a dressing room.

While that may be the easiest way to cam into a closed room, it's not the only way. I routinely cam around, moving through walls with impunity by alt-clicking on things and then mousing the camera around. You can't move the camera up or down this way, so there is some privacy afforded by altitude, but not much.

For those using 3D pointing devices like the Space Navigator, Flycam mode allows you to go anywhere with ease.

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Marybeth Cooperstone wrote:

"
Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your POV), to remove the ability to Cam someone would also require removing the ability to Cam around in general in SL"

The only thing I object to is the "Zoom In" feature on the right button using the "People" window (in Firestorm, maybe other names in other viewers).

AFAIK, that is the only way to cam into someone in a closed room, such as a dressing room.

While granted the function in the people window made it easier, camming with alt/click has always been available and really not all that hard to use.

If we are going to start throwing out functions just because some people mis-use them, where do we stop?  Shall I begin to list the numbers of ways there are to know someones true online status even though they have marked to appear 'off line?'  The functions can be abused but they are also very much needed for other things to work.

I'm not condoning abuse.  As I pointed out to the OP, there is actually legitimate grounds for filing an AR in the situation they mentioned.

 

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Marybeth Cooperstone wrote:

"
Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your POV), to remove the ability to Cam someone would also require removing the ability to Cam around in general in SL"

The only thing I object to is the "Zoom In" feature on the right button using the "People" window (in Firestorm, maybe other names in other viewers).

AFAIK, that is the only way to cam into someone in a closed room, such as a dressing room.

While that may be the easiest way to cam into a closed room, it's not the only way. I routinely cam around, moving through walls with impunity by alt-clicking on things and then mousing the camera around.
You can't move the camera up or down this way
, so there is some privacy afforded by altitude, but not much.

For those using 3D pointing devices like the Space Navigator, Flycam mode allows you to go anywhere with ease.

Ctrl+alt+click lets you move your camera up and down.  It's easy to switch between the two by pressing just the alt button with one finger, then using another finger to press ctrl whenever you want to go up and down.

...Dres

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Marybeth Cooperstone wrote:

"
Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your POV), to remove the ability to Cam someone would also require removing the ability to Cam around in general in SL"

The only thing I object to is the "Zoom In" feature on the right button using the "People" window (in Firestorm, maybe other names in other viewers).

AFAIK, that is the only way to cam into someone in a closed room, such as a dressing room.

While that may be the easiest way to cam into a closed room, it's not the only way. I routinely cam around, moving through walls with impunity by alt-clicking on things and then mousing the camera around.
You can't move the camera up or down this way
, so there is some privacy afforded by altitude, but not much.

For those using 3D pointing devices like the Space Navigator, Flycam mode allows you to go anywhere with ease.

Ctrl+alt+click lets you move your camera up and down.  It's easy to switch between the two by pressing just the alt button with one finger, then using another finger to press ctrl whenever you want to go up and down.

...Dres

Now nobody is safe from me!

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