Any SL I.T. Laptop Experts? - What would you buy?

[MariaLag]

I remembered I also asked for help in the forum when I was going to buy a laptop for SL as I don't know nothing about it.This is what I received as option and I followed it,also with the help of the store seller.It runs ok till today,maybe it's a silly question,but can you tell me if the viewer has to do with laptop running ok or not? I've noted it runs faster in one of the third part viewers,thought it goes good with the others.The price is maybe a little expensive,but it worths if we use it for our RL work too.

i3 ou i5 (second generation-)  Intel Core i5-2410M

 HD 500 Gb

RAM:  8Gb    Ge Force 520 m ou Radeon 6470 m

[Madelaine McMasters]

---

Freya Mokusei wrote:

I'd'd never, ever buy a laptop for SL.

Hi Freya, the OP stated that a laptop was a requirement, and I think we can try to help Aaria make the best of that.

 

• There isn't enough space inside to dissipate the heat from extended use (>30minutes of use may damage components).
  Modern computers monitor their own temperatures and will throttle as necessary to avoid harmful temperatures. If this claim were true, how would warranties work? I can't speak for WinTel computers, but Apple's computers have temperature monitors (in addition to those inside the big chips) under control of a tiny computer which does not run the OS (it's called the System Management Controller or SMC in AppleSpeak). The SMC reports information to the main CPU, which can advise the user of system status (battery level, temperatures, etc) and regulate CPU/GPU speeds to maintain safe temperatures. In the event of a malfunction or malware in the main CPU or OS, the SMC will do what is necessary to maintain safe operating conditions, including turning off the laptop. I expect WinTel computers contain similar functionality. 
  Absent this sort of protection against software malfunction, computer manufacturers warranty costs would be at the mercy of malware.
   

• They don't have room for a decent GPU.
  It's not a matter of physical room, the GPU is the size of a fingernail. It's a matter of power dissipation. Laptops are necessarily limited in this regard by their size, but one can (and I have) get reasonable SL performance from the confines of a laptop. There are gaming laptops with very capable nVIDIA GPUs, like the GTX680M, on board. They are expensive to be sure and probably have terrible battery life, but would run SL very nicely. Intel's integrated graphic hardware improves with every generation (as it must to avoid even more ridicule). From what I've read, Haswell integrated graphics, while still no match for the best nVIDIA GPU chips, give a good compromise between battery life and performance.
   
  For those who'll operate a laptop primarily from the wall outlet, the decreased battery runtime resulting from use of an external GPU would not be an issue. Then it becomes a matter of cooling.
   
  Furthermore, a desktop computer using a certain GPU will probably deliver better graphics performance than a laptop using exactly the same GPU because the laptop will run the chip at a lower frequency to increase battery life and reduce heat. Fan space is limited in a laptop. So, beware of reviews for a graphics ship in a desktop machine if you'll be getting it in a laptop.
   
• RAM can't always be replaced.
  True, laptops are generally more closed environments, so make sure you've got enough RAM and hard drive space in the initial configuration.
   
• Heavy draws on the battery caused by SL will shorten battery life, lack of internal regulation of voltage will shorten component lifespan.
  While it's true that rechargeable batteries have a finite cycle life, and energy intensive programs like SL will drain a battery quickly requiring more frequent charge cycles, that only happens when the computer is not plugged in. For most road warriors, the advantage of a laptop is not so much the battery operation as the transportability. If one generally operates their laptop within reach of a power outlet, battery life will be largely unaffected by usage. That said, the weakest link in a laptop is the battery. It wears out eventually, even if you don't use it.
   
  With regard to voltage regulation, the internal components of a laptop need the same care and feeding as those of a desktop, and they get it. The voltage regulators that supply the CPU, GPU, display backlight and other components are of the same design as those in a desktop, and maintain the same degree of regulation. Desktop computers are designed to run from AC mains voltages ranging from 100-240V. A laptop will accept the same range of AC voltage to operate the computer and charge the batteries. The ratio of battery cell voltage from full (4.2V) to empty (2.5V) is less than that for the acceptable range of AC line voltages.
   
  By having the moderating influence of the battery (which also protects you from blackouts), a laptop is a more benign electrical environment for components than a desktop. Unfortunately, this is more than offset by the physical abuse that arises from portability and the additional complexity of the battery system itself.
   
• They rarely have good ethernet/wired LAN controllers, and Wifi is not suitable for the amount of traffic required.
  I hear this issue raised often. I've been using SL via Wi-Fi since arriving here in 2008. I've never had an issue. Laptop wired ethernet connections, if present, are now usually 1GBit. It would be hard to imagine how even a lackluster controller design would affect SL performance when the Internet connection itself is likely to be 100x or more slower. Certainly Wi-Fi is subject to interference and the vagaries of unknown router quality on the road, but that's a limitation of the environment, not the computer. As Aaria will be on the road, dealing with those  varied environments can't be avoided. Most laptops have both Wi-Fi and wired Ethernet, there's not much more one can ask for.
   
• The components are never designed for long life, or heavy use. (You will want both)
  The components used in laptops are of the same quality as those used in desktops. The reason laptops are more prone to failure is that they take more physical abuse. I still surf the web on a 10 year old Apple PowerBook and do astrophotography on a seven year old MacBook Pro, which sports a few dents supplied free of charge by a friend who no longer asks to borrow my computers. Laptops are built with more attention to durability than desktops, and necessarily so. That does not mean they'll last longer.
   
• You can't improve the specifications if Second Life changes the minimum hardware requirements tomorrow.
  Correct, which is why it's important to make your initial laptop choice carefully.

---

Aaria, I have gathered from others here that nVIDIA GPUs work better with SL than ATI. The laptop you've mentioned has a mid-level nNIDIA GPU, so that's good.

Intel's latest generation of CPUs (called Haswell) have improved integrated graphics controllers. This article suggests that Haswell processors with HD4000 level integrated graphics will offer performance comparable to that nVIDIA chip. Read it only if your eyes are slow to bleed ;-) The advantage of Haswell is that overall power consumption will be lower, resulting in either longer battery life or a lighter machine. Laptops containing those chips are just now becoming available.

I wish I had more concrete advice to give. Good luck!

[SLtesterL2]

I'm on the same boat as you for the most part and though I may not be as tech savvy as some people on the forum I can tell you a few things I think which are true (any one feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

 

• SL can run well on a laptop. I use a laptop  (a dell xps 15 and a ispirion) and it runs beautifully granted you don't abuse the graphics. Many say that there are many wifi issues with them but I rarely had issues and when it did have lag issues I would just relog and the problem was solved. It just depends on your wifi connection. Have a good one and you're set! I do however believe that you won't get the full on experience and reliability from a desktop but if you don't really care, its a small price to pay.
• i5 is good enough for SL rather than spending the extra money for the i7 but, if you plan on using other heavy programs and such then it might be I good idea to get it.for SL, it won't make much of a difference.
• keep your laptop plugged in
• have a fan for cooling

For your question on which to choose...I'm not sure myself. I'm looking at an alienware m14x which I'm using for other mmorpgs, games, and SL but you don't need to spend all that money for a power house laptop. 

 

I'm sorry I couldn't help much but I just don't want people to say a laptop is horrible for running sl because my friends and I log on through them with no problem so don't get discouraged by what some say on the forums, I think they're just directly comapring to super laptops or desktops.

 

[Locke Nider]

---

Maryanne Solo wrote:

I finish my IT diploma next week and I wouldnt buy a laptop at all.

I hope that helps.

---

I just finished my degree in computer science and I took some IT courses during college not too long ago, and i personally say buying a laptop for SL is fine if you know how to take care of your laptop so it doesn't overheat.  While I perfer my desktop, I've been running SL on laptop for years without much trouble since  I was always on the move during school.

Of course due to SL horrible optimization you can't run at the highest settings on many laptops, but lets be honest; SL isn't exactly that pretty graphically anyway.  Running at the higest settings is like trying to put makeup on a baboon.  

[Awe Thor]

It might be worth noting that high performance laptops all suffer from an inability to disperse heat (it comes with the form factor) and while this shouldn't normally be a problem if using it in short bursts (as long as you don't actually rest it on your lap, as it can cause temporary sterility in males, and hot flushes for females) as is the greater part of the usage profile for portable computers, it is advisable to get a cooler base if you are intending on spending extended sessions on the machine.

Zalman and Coolermaster make multi-fan bases which, for about £20-30, are an absolute necessity for those long hot summer nights wandering the beaches of SL  . . .

Awe . . . if you don't want to lock up just before that moment of extreme passion.

[Freya Mokusei]

Hi Maddy, this is a really good rebuttal to my points. The Haswell series is very promising, and I'm sure there's a few other things I've not seen coming.

There are indeed some exceptions to some of the general rules I posted (although I think you will be disappointed if you compare a laptop power supply to a reasonable-efficiency ATX one, and batteries - while consistant - are still an expensive single point of failure). I won't respond to each point in turn however, because as you pointed out the OP is quite set on a laptop, to an extent that I didn't realise when I posted.

Thanks!

 

[Maryanne Solo]

Yes but what if your new android outperforms most laptops anyway ^^?

Or is that too new fangled for you? lol

Edit: and apologies to the OP your preference was clearly stated.

It is entirely obvious that you wouldn't be listening to silly comments.

[Maryanne Solo]

---

Dresden Ceriano wrote:

---

Maryanne Solo wrote:

I finish my IT diploma next week

---

Congratulations.

...Dres

---

You? Serious? Mightily hard to believe...

If so, thank you.

That would be appreciated.

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

Maryanne Solo wrote:

---

Dresden Ceriano wrote:

---

Maryanne Solo wrote:

I finish my IT diploma next week

---

Congratulations.

...Dres

---

You? Serious? Mightily hard to believe...

If so, thank you.

That would be appreciated.

---

I'm prefect serious.  We may not get along very well, but that shouldn't exclude me from being able to acknowledging your accomplishments.

...Dres

ETA: I'm sure we'll find something to disagree on later.

[Awe Thor]

---

Maryanne Solo wrote:

Yes but what if your new android outperforms most laptops anyway ^^?

---

I'll give that silly comment the consideration it deserves when LL release a fully functional version of SL for Android devices,

Awe . . . or speech recognition develops to such an extent that I can write reports efficiently without a keyboad.

[Madelaine McMasters]

---

Freya Mokusei wrote:

Hi Maddy, this is a really good rebuttal to my points. The Haswell series is very promising, and I'm sure there's a few other things I've not seen coming.

There are indeed some exceptions to some of the general rules I posted (although I think you will be disappointed if you compare a laptop power supply to a reasonable-efficiency ATX one, and batteries - while consistant - are still an expensive single point of failure). I won't respond to each point in turn however, because as you pointed out the OP is quite set on a laptop, to an extent that I didn't realise when I posted.

Thanks!

 

---

Hi Freya, I hope you didn't feel like I ran over you!

I once designed both stationary and portable medical monitors, and so had to deal with many of the same issues faced by desktop and laptop designers. The points you raised have been circulating for years and I've been wanting to address them for about that long. You just happened to be crossing the street when I drove through!

At the time I began my design career, field failure data indicated that the portable versions of products my company made were less reliable than the stationary stuff. Field service was fixing everything, but not complaining to engineering. I'm dreadfully curious, so started eating lunch with the field service manager to learn from him what could be improved about our products (who better to know?) Oy, did I get an earfull!

Much of the trouble centered around batteries and connectors. The charging systems weren't really designed properly and were stressing the batteries. Connectors were failing due to vibration. By the time I worked my way up to having my own little design team (doing primarily portable products), we had our field failure rate below that of the stationary products. We fixed the battery systems and eliminated connectors by squishing everything onto one circuit board.

On a modern laptop, almost every failure is memorable because it's costly. There's often only one circuit board in the thing and everything is on it. Power supply failure? New motherboard! Headphone port get blasted by static? New motherboard!

Desktops are heading the same way. After Haswell comes the generation of Intel CPUs that bring everything into the chip, Ethernet, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, USB, Thunderbolt, GPU, SATA, PCI... it'll all be on one chip. No more plug in cards. We'll lament that we can't just replace the part that breaks, but parts will break less often.

Thanks for letting me beat on ya!

Hugs,

Maddy

[Brayla Ravenhurst]

There is truth in both camps.  Really, it depends on what your budget is, and your expectations of how much of the high-end graphics experience you want to utilize.

 

• Wireless internet is less bandwith than Ethernet, and you will see a performance downgrade when using it.  There is also a bit of lag between sending the server a command and SL receiving and executing it.  This is true of all computers.  
• If you are going laptop, a discreet graphics chip with its own memory is essential.  Do not get any laptop with an INTEL graphics chip.  This chip was designed for business machines - it is poor at 3D and laggy at everything else. Make sure it's Nvidia or ATI/AMD.  Even with these recommendations, most laptops are made for business, so graphics performance is average at best.
• If you are getting a laptop, make sure it is a Core I7 and at least 8 GB of ram.  You may not be able to upgrade the ram, and in most laptops, upgrading the processor voids the warranty.  The machine posted in the OP's original post will run SL fine, but with laptops, getting a better one means you can wait longer before buying again.  Pay now or pay later.
• If you do not travel much, the additional money spent on a laptop is not worth it.  You can get a better SL experience for the same money with a desktop machine.  Most of the time, I am on my quad core desktop in my family room on my 55" TV running SL with high end graphics.  My SL looks incredible this way, but this setup is not very portable.
• I still recommend Alienware gaming laptops.  They are not as sleek looking, but that's because they incorporate better cooling fans (and you need a bit of room for that).  After Alienware, I recommend Mac powerbooks.  They have a sleeker look than Alienware, because the aluminum casing is part of the cooling system.  Plastic sleek laptops will have poor cooling.
• If you are concerned about battery life, plug in whenever you can, and use the power settings to manage drain.  Turn SL graphics down when using a battery, or use a text viewer.

If I was going laptop, I'd wait until I had $2100 (or £1300) or better saved up to get a nice one, probably an alienware or a Mac.  Remember, if you don't like Mac OS, you can run windows on your Mac.

 

Edited for typos.

[Brayla Ravenhurst]

---

Aarla wrote:

Yea but see - Im here asking as I don't know whats best anymore.

I get that laptops will not beat a desktop, and will likely implode/melt/explode/give me electric shocks/die a terribe death in the near future, - but seriously - I am out on the road a lot, so this thing has to be portable, as I want to keep my hand in and keep my sl job rolling, and can't take with me or hook up a complete desktop set up in a grubby, work supplied B&B. Shame but true.  Sorry - didn't wanna start a forum slanging match - but thats what I'm dealing with.

For the technically infantile, like myself - what I really need is a list like - 'I have a brand XYZ machine - and its fab, or not, and is expected to survive the new updates - here's what it's called.'.   Because the technical stuff is like dumping me naked in the middle of North Korea instantly, when I have no knowledge of the language or their cultural differences.  I'm up for learning etc, and I'm reading all this - but I gotta be upfront with you guys.... I am just not understanding what I'm reading. LOL.   I hope others are though - so pleeeeeaaase keep posting!  LOL

I said to post about Desktops too as if people are looking for new computers and see this thread, but I kinda thought it would happen in the same 'I have XYZ machine - and its fab,or not ,and is expected to survive the new updates - here's what it's called.' kinda way.  Lol

 

Thank for the replies though - glad and happy to read them.

---

I missed this post somehow when I replied earlier.  I would still recommend saving until you had £1300 for a laptop - that would give you what you want as far as needing higher end graphics for video editing and machima. Here is an MSI model that may suit you:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/MSI-GT60-0ND-448UK-15-6-inch-Processor/dp/B00BETVIQG/ref=pd_sim_sbs_ce_28#productDetails

It's closer to your budget - but it still is an I7, 8 GB RAM and a discreet graphics card that is not Intel (Intel makes great processors - but they are not good at graphics chips).  What that means is you will be able to run the graphics high-end to make videos.  You will probably need external storage drives.  Get one of these http://www.amazon.co.uk/BlacX-eSATA-HDD-USB-Dock/dp/B001A4HAFS/ref=sr_1_2?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1371236082&sr=1-2&keywords=thermaltake and then you can use bare SATA drives for external storage.  That will help with storing photos and videos.

[VRprofessor]

My computer science degree is really, really old.  But I do operate SL on two different desktops and a laptop depending on where I am so I have a lot of first hand experience with SL on different computers.

My laptop is an Asus N53S with an i7 processor and an NVidia GT 550M graphics processor.  Using it I can run SL on high settings, but I use medium settings to reduce the load on the processor and the heat in my system.  I also leave it plugged in when running SL.  If your video processing software is capable of making use of multiple cores, make sure you get a quad-core processor.  If not, an i5 dual core is probably good enough.

When running on my home wifi I don't actually notice any network related issues.  When I run on my University's wifi system I want to scream and break things because SL runs so poorly.  I have a cable port on my laptop, but after discovering wifi the Uni stopped installing wired ports in classrooms.

The chatter about the newest intel chips is interesting but I don't know how well they handle graphics--it will be interesting to find out how good they really are.  I did once check a benchmarking website and found the intel HD 3000 benchmarked similarly to the NVidia GT 520.  I have a GT 520 in one of the computers I use--it works, but only on low settings, and somewhat slowly.   If you get a GT 550m (or larger number) you should get acceptable performance at medium settings in SL as well as reasonable performance with your other graphics needs.

Laptops are expensive and with an x5x coprocessor even more expensive.  If you have time to shop, shop a lot.   It took me three - four months to find the laptop I purchased on sale at a pretty good price at a big box retailer. 

Given the number of graphics/video files you report dealing with you MUST have some sort of external storage.  Cloud storage or an external hard drive.  That not only provides you with a back up, it also allows you to get by with a smaller internal hard drive since seldom used files can be stored externally.   Some folks I know use an external hard drive for their music files.

[AlisenWonderland]

I read all these comments because I was looking for a straight-forward answer. But after reading all of these responses, it's still not actually answered well. All that person, like me is looking for someone to say "look for these specs in a laptop that will help you play SL decently" . That's all. No need to elaborate with all the techno speak all over the place. Just an easy question. The poor person just wants a good laptop to play second life. Why does it have to be the whole runaround? Geez. Thanks for making it so difficult. Now we have to go elsewhere.

[LilacHaze]

Just wanted to say thank you so much to 'Friscolives' for writing a reply that actually made sense to me. After 2 weeks of researching for a desktop pc or laptop to buy, I'm none the wiser. I just want to get onto SL, run around a bit and shop 'til I drop, as I have done for the last 4 years using a shop bought Dell laptop, with no problems whatsoever. I bought the laptop before discovering SL. Pretty much everywhere I've looked, the overall opinion seems to be that laptops cannot cope with SL at all. I've looked at the SL system requirements, but it seems out of date, which doesn't help. I realise that most people on here really know their stuff and I congratulate you for knowing your dual from your quads, but I'm sure, many, like me, don't know where to start.

 Now, I'd like a new pc, a desktop I think, but still haven't a clue what to get. Each time I decide on AMD, I read that Intel is better, then vice versa, as for graphic cards....well, I give up on that. I've even started dreaming of pc's now and waking up in a cold sweat. I was just so pleased to hear that someone else could also run SL on a shop bought Laptop, HP, i3 chip, running Intel 3000 graphics.....my non-IT brain managed to understand that perfectly.