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Staralien

Mind Rape

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

i hope for you that you had a lot of fun with your thread...I didnt. i usually dont make any fun about rape victims..

And again, i dont give a f*** to what will be life in 3050. im living now in 2013 and now in 2013 your thread has been an insult to every rape victim and more generaly to every crime victim.. But well, as long you had fun, i bet it was the more important.


 

with all due respect, Trinity, I don't think Staralien was having "fun" with the thread. She's posted before and as she said was trying to carry on an interesting conversation on the subject or SL rape and your state of mind if such a thing could occur. We, the forum members, have taken it off the track and turned it into a discussion of RL rape and it's consquences (which, before anyone jumps down my throat is HORRIBLE. I believe any rapist should have his b**ls cut off.)

 

The forums are an open place to discuss your opinions and throats about a various number of topics in a safe enviornment. The person you're yelling at in here is the same person you're smiling at in another post. Let's keep this away from a personal level and not act emotionally.

I am now sorry if I offended anyone here. Just expressing my opinions

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Malanya wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:

i just can't see it as  possible at all to recreate something so tramatic and violent and invasive and soul leeching..

 just leaving you dead inside and out..

i can't see a cybor rape leading daymares and nightmares and to years of therapy..

i just cannot grasp it being possible..

 

A few years ago, I wouldn't have believed that you could deliver a
... a single pill. But there is mounting evidence that
psilocybin (the active psychotropic ingredient in magic mushrooms) can have that effect. We're learning which neurotransmitters and modulators are responsible for feelings of sexual attraction and personal attachment and therapies are being imagined to treat abused people for their addiction to their abusers. Can we imagine a future in which drugs might be used to rapidly create attraction and attachment where it would not normally occur, allowing abusive people to quickly render their victims "unwilling" to protest their abuse? It might be impossible to detect that's been done if the chemicals occur naturally in the brain, and if they can jump-start processes (like love) that the brain will continue on its own after the initial administration. One dose of 
psilocybin appears to have life long effects.

Meanwhile, people find themselves increasingly more vulnerable as they (often unwittingly) lose privacy to the internet. As a result, I think we'll see new forms of coercion.

As for the cyber, and eventually cyborg aspects of this discussion, if you believe in Ray Kurzweil's end game of the merger of man and machine, then it may someday become impossible to separate real and virtual experiences, which might occur simultaneously. My technical journals are filled with articles predicting the embedding of digital sensory and cognitive aids in the not too distant future. If and when this occurs, we'll be facing some ethical issues as the owners of these implanted devices may not be able to avoid the influence of devices which may not be entirely secure.

I also think that the descriptions of RL rape I've read here cover only a fraction of actual rapes. Rape needn't be physically violent and doesn't require immediate objection by the victim. A substantial number of rapes are committed against victims in altered states induced by drugs and/or alcohol, who were not aware of the rape until after the fact. There are a great many rape victims who do not require therapy, do not feel dead after the fact and do not feel as if their souls have been leached. They have been raped nonetheless.

I certainly understand the concerns people feel about comparing SL experiences to RL rape, but as I look towards the future, I think it's prudent to consider the possibility that we'll be able to induce significant mental and emotional harm in ways that we currently "cannot grasp being possible".

Have you ever been a victim of a violent crime? Where do you get your rape statistics, Wikipedia? Please, you can project your Jetson theory but I don't think you understand no matter what simulator, pill, technology, it will NEVER compare to a RL experience, there will always be an element left out, because we are human. I am so over this ridiculous thread and the theories of future stimulation crap.

I'm not sure what it is about my characterization of rape that's bothering you. That it happens in many ways does not make it any less horrific. That it happens in many ways does make it important to consider those ways, and their implications for other kinds of abuse. I don't think you are advocating that we reserve our compassion only for those who's rapes are fast and physically violent and precipitate all the other dreadful effects listed by Trinity and Ceka and others.

I don't happen to believe that technology will race out ahead of us, allowing rampant abuse. The reason I don't believe that will happen is because there are people, like me, who don't believe it's impossible.

Nothing is bothering me about your characterization of rape, I responded to your post. I asked where you got your statistics when you mentioned some need therapy and some don't, etc,. I referred to theories you mentioned as "Jetson" l only because it reminds me of the future. I don't think anything that comes along in the future can truly represent any rl experience good or bad because you can't replace a human with any technology (I won't bring up cloning that's another topic still not the same). My post wasn't meant to be offensive to any of your replies.

I am not sure what you are referring to exactly about what I am advocating for.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Trinity Yazimoto wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


I don't think I've ever claimed in this thread that one can be mind raped in SL. As I said, nothing here comes close. But I am allowing for a future in which significant harm can be delivered virtually. To proclaim that it can't ever happen is, I think, dangerous. The ethics of such futures are already being discussed.

Evidence suggests that a single administration of 
psilocybin can have life-long effects. There is also growing evidence that virtual experiences can have effects similar to hallucinogenic drugs, as both can present surreal experiences that our brains attempt to resolve by rewiring neural pathways.

Rape is one of many potentially life changing events and is not the only physchological trauma that can result in the plethora of damning consequences you've described. I'm sure we'll have new words to describe the sorts of psychological harm that may be inflicted on us in the future in ways we've not yet imagined. I'd rather we start thinking about that now, and we are.

I don't believe technology will get us to the point I'm describing anytime soon, and I believe the ethical issues will be addressed along the way... but that's just a belief.

Maddy, there are already, without any technology help, tons of mind harms possible... i hear you, but for me this exist already without any technology . And some are indeed extrem pain too.

Of course, technology will add some more.. i dont have any doubt about this.. and even, it has already started... 

but as you said, these harms have different words to describe them... rape is not one of them.. 

i just reacted on the use of the word "rape" bec words are not innocent and using them without the right purpose can be dangerous. And i will always fight aggainst this kind of banalization.

I get that, Trin.

I thought I was being careful to say that I didn't think rape was possible in SL, but that there's reason to be wary about the use of technology to cause psychological harm in the future. I didn't see Staralien's OP as demeaning rape, but rather as opening up a discussion of how, as technology gets closer to our brains, it presents a challenge for us to manage.

i got it later Maddy... no worries

but imho no, words are never innocent.. she used the word 'rape" and if what she said about the fact she has been victim of such trauma in her real life is true, it cant be in any way innocent....

this is why for long time in this thread, i didnt got what you were saying, and for me, even if it was a good and interesting point of view, this was a big off topic for me...:smileywink:. So i didnt understood why you was insisting about this... now with your latest explanation it makes it clearer for me, but still, not the way i read the OP.

On top, as almost everyone knows here, english is not my native language.. and its not easy to express so sensible things in another language than mine. Neither it was easy to me to understand what you wanted to mean, since it was not in the way i read (and still read the op). 

@Malanya : of course i dont have any doubt the OP had a lot of fun... the way she writed her first post and the fact shes been absent all  along the thread tells a lot... and IMHO, its pitiable.

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i just want to say..Maddy i understand what you are saying..

you are one of the smartest people i have ever had the pleasure to listen to..or read their posts i mean..

i know you are talking about future things and the possibilities..

just since the year 2000 the world has taken such a huge leap..

 

it moves so fast we really don't get to enjoy some of the things because something new is coming right at us from all sides..

 

i don't doubt your wisdom of the things to come..

but i sure hope i am deep in the dirt with some things  coming from the future..

i think we move to fast in many things..and get taken by suprize a lot..

i hope i wasn't sounding disrespectful to you..because i hold you way up there in my respects.

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Tex Monday wrote:


Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

i hope for you that you had a lot of fun with your thread...I didnt. i usually dont make any fun about rape victims..

And again, i dont give a f*** to what will be life in 3050. im living now in 2013 and now in 2013 your thread has been an insult to every rape victim and more generaly to every crime victim.. But well, as long you had fun, i bet it was the more important.


 

with all due respect, Trinity, I don't think Staralien was having "fun" with the thread. She's posted before and as she said was trying to carry on an interesting conversation on the subject or SL rape and your state of mind if such a thing could occur. We, the forum members, have taken it off the track and turned it into a discussion of RL rape and it's consquences (which, before anyone jumps down my throat is HORRIBLE. I believe any rapist should have his b**ls cut off.)

 

The forums are an open place to discuss your opinions and throats about a various number of topics in a safe enviornment. The person you're yelling at in here is the same person you're smiling at in another post. Let's keep this away from a personal level and not act emotionally.

I am now sorry if I offended anyone here. Just expressing my opinions


Wasn't this compared to RL rape? As you state the forums are open to discuss so anyone's reply that may be emotional is not allowed? It's a safe environment I believe even when people don't agree or respond with emotions, none of us have any idea how certain topics may hit home to others for various reasons. Just as you said you are expressing your opinions and so is everyone that posted I believe.

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Malanya wrote:


Wasn't this compared to RL rape? As you state the forums are open to discuss so anyone's reply that may be emotional is not allowed? It's a safe environment I believe even when people don't agree or respond with emotions, none of us have any idea how certain topics may hit home to others for various reasons. Just as you said you are expressing your opinions and so is everyone that posted I believe.

I don't believe it was compared to RL rape by the OP. She asked if your avatar could be raped. The OP never compared it to RL..other people made that connection.

And you are of course correct. You can't have a discussion in here without being emotional..especially on a topic as hot as this. I didn't say it correctly and I apologize.

Everyone is entitled to express their opinions. I thought that Trinity's was a bit ruder than it could have been. That is why I responded the way I did. If you find that I"m wrong, then so be it..and I apologize for that as well.

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Tex Monday wrote:


Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

i hope for you that you had a lot of fun with your thread...I didnt. i usually dont make any fun about rape victims..

And again, i dont give a f*** to what will be life in 3050. im living now in 2013 and now in 2013 your thread has been an insult to every rape victim and more generaly to every crime victim.. But well, as long you had fun, i bet it was the more important.


 

with all due respect, Trinity, I don't think Staralien was having "fun" with the thread. She's posted before and as she said was trying to carry on an interesting conversation on the subject or SL rape and your state of mind if such a thing could occur. We, the forum members, have taken it off the track and turned it into a discussion of RL rape and it's consquences (which, before anyone jumps down my throat is HORRIBLE. I believe any rapist should have his b**ls cut off.)

 

The forums are an open place to discuss your opinions and throats about a various number of topics in a safe enviornment. The person you're yelling at in here is the same person you're smiling at in another post. Let's keep this away from a personal level and not act emotionally.

I am now sorry if I offended anyone here. Just expressing my opinions


Tex, there s no worries to express opinions here as long there are not insulting. 

i do believe that words and how you act in a conversation are not innocent at all.. 

firstly, words are never innocent, and for someone who claim on top to have been victim in rl, "rape " cant under any condition be an innocent word.

secondly, communication is not only words, there are a lot of other ways to communicate, the telling first :saying "Here's a can of worms I just opened:"  display obviously that the OP was fully conscious about what she was doing.

the long silence all along the thread while it was passionate and so if she was so interested than she pretends by the topic she wouldnt keep silent..

and in the last post : saying "thank you and oh ! im so sorry if you feel insulted it was not my intention " its just not sincere (and here trust me... i tell it with really sweet words... i could have say it with really more rudeness)

So Tex, im sorry, i keep believing, some pp have fun with the pain of others... there are tons of pp like this on this planet shamely... And this forum, just like every other place, is not a place where all are angels.  And yes, i keep thinking the OP had fun with such painful topic here in this thread.. as i said i hope for her, she enjoyed. Some others did not.

 

ETA : and AFAIK , "rape" is a word from the real world, till now there is none newly invented for SL. Rape is rape...she was not meaning about bdsm rp but about real harm since she asked if " can you prosecute the person in real life?" there are not my words but hers.

ETA 2 : Tex you can think im rude.. .what i think its rude is the OP behavior here and the insult to rape victims. And really, i can swear ive moderated a lot of my posts.

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Tex Monday wrote:


Malanya wrote:


Wasn't this compared to RL rape? As you state the forums are open to discuss so anyone's reply that may be emotional is not allowed? It's a safe environment I believe even when people don't agree or respond with emotions, none of us have any idea how certain topics may hit home to others for various reasons. Just as you said you are expressing your opinions and so is everyone that posted I believe.

I don't believe it was compared to RL rape by the OP. She asked if your avatar could be raped. The OP never compared it to RL..other people made that connection.

And you are of course correct. You can't have a discussion in here without being emotional..especially on a topic as hot as this. I didn't say it correctly and I apologize.

Everyone is entitled to express their opinions. I thought that Trinity's was a bit ruder than it could have been. That is why I responded the way I did. If you find that I"m wrong, then so be it..and I apologize for that as well.

Staralien wrote:

Here's a can of worms I just opened:

If your avatar is raped, (if such a thing were possible to do against your will) can you prosecute the person in real life? Should you be able to? Rape is a violent act, and in this case it would be basically raping someone's mind. Mind rape.

 ^^ to me, as it's my opinion was compared to a RL rape. Of course we all see written word and come o our own conclusions. Sometimes when people see that the outcome of their post was not the way they wished then the OP may add other things in which results in more conclusions being drawn.

No need to apologize, I can't find that you are wrong as I am not the judge of you or anyone else :) I can only express my opinion, that's all.

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I took no offense, Ceka. I've a great deal of respect for you as well.

And I don't believe we'll find the future so bad that you'll be happy to be deep in the dirt when it comes. I'm fascinated by our increasing understanding of the mind and the glimmers of hope we see for helping those in anquish. Of course there will be perils along the way, there always have been. But I'm confident that we'll work our way through it all, just as we've done so far. It's been a messy trip, but how many of us would want to live on Earth as it was a hundred, or a thousand years ago?

You said... "you are one of the smartest people i have ever had the pleasure to listen to..or read their posts i mean."

Thank you for that lovely compliment, but let me remind you that we all, and perhaps myself in particular, usually sound smarter when we we've the time to compose our thoughts in print than when we're forced to think fast enough to speak in real time. I assure you, I don't sound terribly smart face to face. At least that's what people tell me.

;-)

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Tex Monday wrote:


Malanya wrote:


Wasn't this compared to RL rape? As you state the forums are open to discuss so anyone's reply that may be emotional is not allowed? It's a safe environment I believe even when people don't agree or respond with emotions, none of us have any idea how certain topics may hit home to others for various reasons. Just as you said you are expressing your opinions and so is everyone that posted I believe.

I don't believe it was compared to RL rape by the OP. She asked if your avatar could be raped. The OP never compared it to RL..
other people made that connection.


There is no other connection to make because it's just not possible to rape an avatar.  The OP's initial assertion is completely disingenuous on it's face and I don't blame people for calling her out on it.  It's just as bad as the idiots that refer to their political opponents as Hitler... it makes light of a horrible, real-life situation by putting it on the same level as an inconvience.

Not only that, but the OP's intent was evident from the very first sentence of her very first post.

...Dres

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Malanya wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Malanya wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:

i just can't see it as  possible at all to recreate something so tramatic and violent and invasive and soul leeching..

 just leaving you dead inside and out..

i can't see a cybor rape leading daymares and nightmares and to years of therapy..

i just cannot grasp it being possible..

 

A few years ago, I wouldn't have believed that you could deliver a
... a single pill. But there is mounting evidence that
psilocybin (the active psychotropic ingredient in magic mushrooms) can have that effect. We're learning which neurotransmitters and modulators are responsible for feelings of sexual attraction and personal attachment and therapies are being imagined to treat abused people for their addiction to their abusers. Can we imagine a future in which drugs might be used to rapidly create attraction and attachment where it would not normally occur, allowing abusive people to quickly render their victims "unwilling" to protest their abuse? It might be impossible to detect that's been done if the chemicals occur naturally in the brain, and if they can jump-start processes (like love) that the brain will continue on its own after the initial administration. One dose of 
psilocybin appears to have life long effects.

Meanwhile, people find themselves increasingly more vulnerable as they (often unwittingly) lose privacy to the internet. As a result, I think we'll see new forms of coercion.

As for the cyber, and eventually cyborg aspects of this discussion, if you believe in Ray Kurzweil's end game of the merger of man and machine, then it may someday become impossible to separate real and virtual experiences, which might occur simultaneously. My technical journals are filled with articles predicting the embedding of digital sensory and cognitive aids in the not too distant future. If and when this occurs, we'll be facing some ethical issues as the owners of these implanted devices may not be able to avoid the influence of devices which may not be entirely secure.

I also think that the descriptions of RL rape I've read here cover only a fraction of actual rapes. Rape needn't be physically violent and doesn't require immediate objection by the victim. A substantial number of rapes are committed against victims in altered states induced by drugs and/or alcohol, who were not aware of the rape until after the fact. There are a great many rape victims who do not require therapy, do not feel dead after the fact and do not feel as if their souls have been leached. They have been raped nonetheless.

I certainly understand the concerns people feel about comparing SL experiences to RL rape, but as I look towards the future, I think it's prudent to consider the possibility that we'll be able to induce significant mental and emotional harm in ways that we currently "cannot grasp being possible".

Have you ever been a victim of a violent crime? Where do you get your rape statistics, Wikipedia? Please, you can project your Jetson theory but I don't think you understand no matter what simulator, pill, technology, it will NEVER compare to a RL experience, there will always be an element left out, because we are human. I am so over this ridiculous thread and the theories of future stimulation crap.

I'm not sure what it is about my characterization of rape that's bothering you. That it happens in many ways does not make it any less horrific. That it happens in many ways does make it important to consider those ways, and their implications for other kinds of abuse. I don't think you are advocating that we reserve our compassion only for those who's rapes are fast and physically violent and precipitate all the other dreadful effects listed by Trinity and Ceka and others.

I don't happen to believe that technology will race out ahead of us, allowing rampant abuse. The reason I don't believe that will happen is because there are people, like me, who don't believe it's impossible.

Nothing is bothering me about your characterization of rape, I responded to your post. I asked where you got your statistics when you mentioned some need therapy and some don't, etc,. I referred to theories you mentioned as "Jetson" l only because it reminds me of the future. I don't think anything that comes along in the future can truly represent any rl experience good or bad because you can't replace a human with any technology (I won't bring up cloning that's another topic still not the same). My post wasn't meant to be offensive to any of your replies.

I am not sure what you are referring to exactly about what I am advocating for.

Well, I said what I didn't think you were advocating for, but you did seem to take issue with my observation that rape, and its effects, are complex. I don't think we're in disagreement over the significance of rape, though we might sound like we are.

As for not replacing humans with technology, I'm not sure. The future is a big place. The Dalai Lama allows for the potential of human "souls" (not his word) to be transferred to machines of sufficient complexity. He doesn't say how that would happen, but it doesn't seem impossible to him.

And we needn't replace humans with technology, we only have to insert technology in the path of our experiences to a sufficient degree to make a difference. How many of us have found that SL amplifies and accelerates relationships? Although we all know that our SL beauty is purchased, our ancient wiring hasn't a clue. It sees a pretty face (which are all the  more pretty because we love symmetry and it's easier to create only one side of a face, then mirror it, creating.... symmetry!), releases the appropriate neurochemicals and off we go. I think it's important to understand that's happening, and that those old mechanisms can't evolve fast enough to keep up with the ways we're creating to fool them.

 

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Malanya wrote:

 

Have you ever been a victim of a violent crime? Where do you get your rape statistics, Wikipedia? Please, you can project your Jetson theory but I don't think you understand no matter what simulator, pill, technology, it will NEVER compare to a RL experience, there will always be an element left out, because we are human. I am so over this ridiculous thread and the theories of future stimulation crap.

I'm not sure what it is about my characterization of rape that's bothering you. That it happens in many ways does not make it any less horrific. That it happens in many ways does make it important to consider those ways, and their implications for other kinds of abuse. I don't think you are advocating that we reserve our compassion only for those who's rapes are fast and physically violent and precipitate all the other dreadful effects listed by Trinity and Ceka and others.

I don't happen to believe that technology will race out ahead of us, allowing rampant abuse. The reason I don't believe that will happen is because there are people, like me, who don't believe it's impossible.

Nothing is bothering me about your characterization of rape, I responded to your post. I asked where you got your statistics when you mentioned some need therapy and some don't, etc,. I referred to theories you mentioned as "Jetson" l only because it reminds me of the future. I don't think anything that comes along in the future can truly represent any rl experience good or bad because you can't replace a human with any technology (I won't bring up cloning that's another topic still not the same). My post wasn't meant to be offensive to any of your replies.

I am not sure what you are referring to exactly about what I am advocating for.

Well, I said what I didn't think you were advocating for, but you did seem to take issue with my observation that rape, and its effects, are complex. I don't think we're in disagreement over the significance of rape, though we might sound like we are.

As for not replacing humans with technology, I'm not sure. The future is a big place. The Dalai Lama allows for the potential of human "souls" (not his word) to be transferred to machines of sufficient complexity. He doesn't say how that would happen, but it doesn't seem impossible to him.

And we needn't replace humans with technology, we only have to insert technology in the path of our experiences to a sufficient degree to make a difference. How many of us have found that SL amplifies and accelerate relationships? Although we all know that our SL beauty is purchased, our ancient wiring hasn't a clue. It sees a pretty face (which are all the  more pretty because we love symmetry and it's easier to create only one side of a face, then mirror it, creating.... symmetry!), releases the appropriate neurochemicals and off we go. I think it's important to understand that's happening, and that those old mechanisms can't evolve fast enough to keep up with the ways we're creating to fool them.

 

Oh ok, I understand what you meant. I don't think we were disagreeing but I see how it came across that way. Yes we do have feelings and emotions in sl as it is now, and IMO they are genuine whether you have met the person in rl or not as long as you have had opportunities to see inside their rl to decide if you feel they have been genuine towards you. I still don't think technology will ever imitate anything about a human 100% but that's just my thought and doesn't mean it's set in stone :)

Thanks for your reply and clarifying what I didn't understand from your post.

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Malanya wrote:

I still don't think technology will ever imitate anything about a human 100% but that's just my thought and doesn't mean it's set in stone
:)


This seems like a stretch to me as well. So long as we don't set our beliefs in stone, I think we'll be just fine.

;-)

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Trinity Yazimoto wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


I don't think I've ever claimed in this thread that one can be mind raped in SL. As I said, nothing here comes close. But I am allowing for a future in which significant harm can be delivered virtually. To proclaim that it can't ever happen is, I think, dangerous. The ethics of such futures are already being discussed.

Evidence suggests that a single administration of 
psilocybin can have life-long effects. There is also growing evidence that virtual experiences can have effects similar to hallucinogenic drugs, as both can present surreal experiences that our brains attempt to resolve by rewiring neural pathways.

Rape is one of many potentially life changing events and is not the only physchological trauma that can result in the plethora of damning consequences you've described. I'm sure we'll have new words to describe the sorts of psychological harm that may be inflicted on us in the future in ways we've not yet imagined. I'd rather we start thinking about that now, and we are.

I don't believe technology will get us to the point I'm describing anytime soon, and I believe the ethical issues will be addressed along the way... but that's just a belief.

Maddy, there are already, without any technology help, tons of mind harms possible... i hear you, but for me this exist already without any technology . And some are indeed extrem pain too.

Of course, technology will add some more.. i dont have any doubt about this.. and even, it has already started... 

but as you said, these harms have different words to describe them... rape is not one of them.. 

i just reacted on the use of the word "rape" bec words are not innocent and using them without the right purpose can be dangerous. And i will always fight aggainst this kind of banalization.

I get that, Trin.

I thought I was being careful to say that I didn't think rape was possible in SL, but that there's reason to be wary about the use of technology to cause psychological harm in the future. I didn't see Staralien's OP as demeaning rape, but rather as opening up a discussion of how, as technology gets closer to our brains, it presents a challenge for us to manage.
Thank you. I never intended harm and I really had no idea that so much drama would be created from my post. I knew there would be varying opinions, but I had no idea that there would be so many people that would take it so personal and attack me personally. I have been reading alot about technology and what is coming, etc. and it just got me to thinking about crime and stuff and to me, one of the worst crimes is rape. It can be worse than death as the victim is left to live with the trauma for years to come. I by no means intended to hurt anyone by wanting to discuss such a topic as I thought we could have an intelligent discussion about a topic that though it is horrific, has the potential to possibly become a reality one day. I had no idea that I would be called a troll or other names or accused of causing drama. I don't even know why I bother to post in these forums as there seems to be certain individuals who think they are the only ones with valid opinions and seem to attack those they don't agree with. Or, seem to misread everything I do post. As for me not coming back right away, I don't hang out on this forum all day and have other things I have to do. I generally will look over the forums with morning coffee. I have tried to be a part of this community, but frankly, I am tired of certain individuals that seem to come around in packs to attack everything I say and totally mis-read what I post. I won't say anything more on this topic as anything I do say, seems to be misconstrued and having any sort of conversation here is impossible. Perhaps a moderator will consider removing this thread from the forum since it apears to be so bothersome.

Again, I truly meant no harm. I realize that no matter what I say, some people will read what they want, and understand nothing.

 

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Staralien wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Trinity Yazimoto wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


I don't think I've ever claimed in this thread that one can be mind raped in SL. As I said, nothing here comes close. But I am allowing for a future in which significant harm can be delivered virtually. To proclaim that it can't ever happen is, I think, dangerous. The ethics of such futures are already being discussed.

Evidence suggests that a single administration of 
psilocybin can have life-long effects. There is also growing evidence that virtual experiences can have effects similar to hallucinogenic drugs, as both can present surreal experiences that our brains attempt to resolve by rewiring neural pathways.

Rape is one of many potentially life changing events and is not the only physchological trauma that can result in the plethora of damning consequences you've described. I'm sure we'll have new words to describe the sorts of psychological harm that may be inflicted on us in the future in ways we've not yet imagined. I'd rather we start thinking about that now, and we are.

I don't believe technology will get us to the point I'm describing anytime soon, and I believe the ethical issues will be addressed along the way... but that's just a belief.

Maddy, there are already, without any technology help, tons of mind harms possible... i hear you, but for me this exist already without any technology . And some are indeed extrem pain too.

Of course, technology will add some more.. i dont have any doubt about this.. and even, it has already started... 

but as you said, these harms have different words to describe them... rape is not one of them.. 

i just reacted on the use of the word "rape" bec words are not innocent and using them without the right purpose can be dangerous. And i will always fight aggainst this kind of banalization.

I get that, Trin.

I thought I was being careful to say that I didn't think rape was possible in SL, but that there's reason to be wary about the use of technology to cause psychological harm in the future. I didn't see Staralien's OP as demeaning rape, but rather as opening up a discussion of how, as technology gets closer to our brains, it presents a challenge for us to manage.
Thank you. I never intended harm and I really had no idea that so much drama would be created from my post.
I knew there would be varying opinions, but I had no idea that there would be so many people that would take it so personal and attack me personally. I have been reading alot about technology and what is coming, etc. and it just got me to thinking about crime and stuff and to me, one of the worst crimes is rape. It can be worse than death as the victim is left to live with the trauma for years to come.
I by no means intended to hurt anyone by wanting to discuss such a topic as I thought we could have an intelligent discussion about a topic that though it is horrific, has the potential to possibly become a reality one day. I had no idea that I would be called a troll or other names or accused of causing drama. I don't even know why I bother to post in these forums as there seems to be certain individuals who think they are the only ones with valid opinions and seem to attack those they don't agree with. Or, seem to misread everything I do post.
As for me not coming back right away, I don't hang out on this forum all day and have other things I have to do. I generally will look over the forums with morning coffee. I have tried to be a part of this community, but frankly,
I am tired of certain individuals that seem to come around in packs to attack everything I say and totally mis-read what I post.
I won't say anything more on this topic as anything I do say, seems to be misconstrued and having any sort of conversation here is impossible. Perhaps a moderator will consider removing this thread from the forum since it apears to be so bothersome.

Again, I truly meant no harm.
I realize that no matter what I say, some people will read what they want, and understand nothing.

 

Attack, attack, attack you personally. This seems to be a common phrase amongst your posts. As I said to many when people don't like the responses they get they start changing words. It seems you like to act clueless about most of your posts and claim people jumped on you. Maybe you should look at your opening line as I mentioned, seems you don't know what "Here is a can of worms I just opened" means? I doubt that. If you truly wanted to discuss something about laws and prosecution in the virtual world, there would have been many more ways to do it. It's disrespectful how you opened this thread in mine and many others minds. You can flip, switch, swing your words around but it doesn't change anything. I am sure RL kept you away from this thread until almost the last pages and waited to see what poster YOU felt backed you up. Done reading any threads, posts from you. Enjoy your sl Staralien.

p.s. I am sure most posters here are not ignorant and understand more than you think.

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how can someone come here saying she's opening a can of worms, asking if someone can prosecute iin RL some other one for rape bec of an avatar abuse, and then coming back later saying it was a topic that deeply interest her and leave like this such thread for more than 1 day ????  

there was no rush for such question... it could have wait till she had time to follow the discussion ?

if there isnt here any bad purpose, then it can only be big stupidity (i mean the fact to post such op,im not saying the person herself is stupid, since i dont know her)... 

but well, in life, you get what you  sow... as i said already, action/reaction.... 

Since Matrix have been cited, and since the OP seems to know pretty well this movie, id strongly advice to her to rewatch "Reloaded" and specially the part where the Merovingian explain so brightly the concept of action/reaction..... (one of my favorite part btw). and maybe she would learn that actions have consequences. Always... so better to use a brain before acting. It avoid often a lot of annoyance then. 

i dont recognize myself in the persons who only think that their opinion is valid that she describe, or even in drama queen she evocated... so i dont feel concerned. Pp may consult the history of my posts in the forum and judge by themselves... 

But when its too much, its too much... and here i really do consider it has been a bit too much.

EDIT : typo

 

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

how can someone come here saying she's opening a can of worms, asking if someone can prosecute iin RL some other one for rape bec of an avatar abuse, and then coming back later saying it was a topic that deeply interest her and leave like this such thread for more than 1 day ????  

there was no rush for such question... it could have wait till she had time to follow the discussion ?

if there isnt here any bad purpose, then it can only be big stupidity (i mean the fact to post such op,im not saying the person herself is stupid, since i dont know her)
... 

but well, in life, you get what you  sow... as i said already, action/reaction.... 

Since Matrix have been cited, and since the OP seems to know pretty well this movie, id strongly advice to her to rewatch "Reloaded" and specially the part where the Merovingian explain so brightly the concept of action/reaction..... (one of my favorite part btw). and maybe she would learn that actions have consequences. Always... so better to use a brain before acting. It avoid often a lot of annoyance then. 

i dont recognize myself in the persons who only think that their opinion is valid that she describe, or even in drama queen she evocated... so i dont feel concerned. Pp may consult the history of my posts in the forum and judge by themselves... 

But when its too much, its too much... and here i really do consider it has been a bit too much.

EDIT : typo

 

Someone can't come here and say that (really the can of worms sentence can't be interpreted any other way to me at least) and then fool everyone with all the poor me lines, only check forums when drinking coffee, have things to do, (I am working my rl biz, which is tedious and inworld when I am on the forums and did so when I did rentals of 4 sims ) then all the I apologize. This is what I see that it's about drama and I won't link to any other threads. It was a comparison and insulting and everything else that was discussed. I can't stand when people come here, post , then whine when they don't like the replies. it's like trying to do damage control.

I know you don't think only your opinion is valid. This was a bad topic IMO to think about virtual crime and being prosecuted for similar RL crimes.

 That's what I meant about flipping the words around and then all the "oh I am being jumped on, People always say this or that about my posts (it's all me me) and then the apologies. I don't know the OP either, but I do know the pattern of the post. We all have a certain pattern to our posts which is fine, just some have a need to create a fire because their rl is only a fizzled log. I know there are cliques of people lol, I told you that in another thread, but it will never stop me from posting and I was even accused by someone else about complaining about it multiple times.

 eta

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Staralien wrote:

Thank you. I never intended harm and I really had no idea that so much drama would be created from my post. I knew there would be varying opinions, but I had no idea that there would be so many people that would take it so personal and attack me personally. I have been reading alot about technology and what is coming, etc. and it just got me to thinking about crime and stuff and to me, one of the worst crimes is rape. It can be worse than death as the victim is left to live with the trauma for years to come. I by no means intended to hurt anyone by wanting to discuss such a topic as I thought we could have an intelligent discussion about a topic that though it is horrific, has the potential to possibly become a reality one day. I had no idea that I would be called a troll or other names or accused of causing drama. I don't even know why I bother to post in these forums as there seems to be certain individuals who think they are the only ones with valid opinions and seem to attack those they don't agree with. Or, seem to misread everything I do post. As for me not coming back right away, I don't hang out on this forum all day and have other things I have to do. I generally will look over the forums with morning coffee. I have tried to be a part of this community, but frankly, I am tired of certain individuals that seem to come around in packs to attack everything I say and totally mis-read what I post. I won't say anything more on this topic as anything I do say, seems to be misconstrued and having any sort of conversation here is impossible. Perhaps a moderator will consider removing this thread from the forum since it apears to be so bothersome.

Again, I truly meant no harm. I realize that no matter what I say, some people will read what they want, and understand nothing.


There's nothing to misconstrue.  You knew very well, before you posted your OP, that the conversation you wanted to start, had the distinct possibility of getting hairy (opening a can of worms, as it were); yet you chose to post it anyway.  If your intent was not to cause drama, then you've failed miserably.  Instead of whining about how you're being attacked (which, btw, questioning your motives does not equate attacking you), you should be looking at your own behavior and trying to figure out how not to recreate a situation where you will not like the outcome.

...Dres

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Staralien wrote:

I get that, Trin.

I thought I was being careful to say that I didn't think rape was possible in SL, but that there's reason to be wary about the use of technology to cause psychological harm in the future. I didn't see Staralien's OP as demeaning rape, but rather as opening up a discussion of how, as technology gets closer to our brains, it presents a challenge for us to manage.
Thank you. I never intended harm and I really had no idea that so much drama would be created from my post. I knew there would be varying opinions, but I had no idea that there would be so many people that would take it so personal and attack me personally. I have been reading alot about technology and what is coming, etc. and it just got me to thinking about crime and stuff and to me, one of the worst crimes is rape. It can be worse than death as the victim is left to live with the trauma for years to come. I by no means intended to hurt anyone by wanting to discuss such a topic as I thought we could have an intelligent discussion about a topic that though it is horrific, has the potential to possibly become a reality one day. I had no idea that I would be called a troll or other names or accused of causing drama. I don't even know why I bother to post in these forums as there seems to be certain individuals who think they are the only ones with valid opinions and seem to attack those they don't agree with. Or, seem to misread everything I do post. As for me not coming back right away, I don't hang out on this forum all day and have other things I have to do. I generally will look over the forums with morning coffee. I have tried to be a part of this community, but frankly, I am tired of certain individuals that seem to come around in packs to attack everything I say and totally mis-read what I post. I won't say anything more on this topic as anything I do say, seems to be misconstrued and having any sort of conversation here is impossible. Perhaps a moderator will consider removing this thread from the forum since it apears to be so bothersome.

Again, I truly meant no harm. I realize that no matter what I say, some people will read what they want, and understand nothing.

 

i'll just say that from reading the OP..when i answered you ..it was a question of if it were possible? as in now in these times..

not future technology in place..but as it stands now if it were possible..

 

to me that is asking if someone stood there ignoring all the exits and letting it happen with today's technology..

i basically said in so many words..the second they felt anything like what a real violent rape would feel like..

they would GTFO and use those exits..if it were possible to feel that in a virtual world..

maybe i just can't see someone standing there letting it happen because of certain reasons i just don't wish to go into..

i didn't pay attention to if you were trolling or not..i don't care if you were or not..

i looked at your question and not who was asking it and gave the most honest answer i could give to it..

because should of's and could of's?

those are what kick us in the a$$ and make us hate ourselves even more amd make us feel stupid and keep us down and create more fear in such things like this..and if you have truely ever really been a victim and have rebuilt to where you have some of your power back..you know creating fear out of nothing is anti productive in working your way back..

you got my most honest answer without going into more than i could to your question on the merrit of the question itself.. and now my honest explination to it..

i can't see something like this going to some court room..because i can't grasp someone standing there..and letting that happen..

it's hard enough to prove real world rape in a lot of cases..

there is no way no judge in the world would convict someone for mind rape if it were possible when there are so many existing exits today..

she could have left at any time your honor,,but she didn't..

that case would be closed fast..

right now there is nothing that would make survival insticts kick in like they do is such a terrible thing..

 if you were just looking for simple yes and no's or wondering if the technology exists and would a judge convict someone for mind raping someone else..

 

i'll just still say..i can't grasp my mind around it being possible..and say no..

i can't say how someone that may not undrstand will answer..

but then again..your question is one of fiction and asking for reality in the answers..

don't be suprised when you get some reality and hit nerves and get answers from people that it hits very close to home..

 

you have to expect that a question like that will insult some people and also make some people reply with more than a yes or no..

you may not understand their answer as well..but it doesn't mean they did not answer the question..

 

as i said i don't know if you were trolling or not and really don't care if you were or not..

it would not have had an impact or changed the way i answered either way to this question..

now if you wish to insult me by how i answerd or decided to give me an honest reply..

that will be something that decides how we look at each other from then on..

not your opening post..

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Tex Monday wrote:


Malanya wrote:


Wasn't this compared to RL rape? As you state the forums are open to discuss so anyone's reply that may be emotional is not allowed? It's a safe environment I believe even when people don't agree or respond with emotions, none of us have any idea how certain topics may hit home to others for various reasons. Just as you said you are expressing your opinions and so is everyone that posted I believe.

I don't believe it was compared to RL rape by the OP. She asked if your avatar could be raped. The OP never compared it to RL..other people made that connection.

And you are of course correct. You can't have a discussion in here without being emotional..especially on a topic as hot as this. I didn't say it correctly and I apologize.

Everyone is entitled to express their opinions. I thought that Trinity's was a bit ruder than it could have been. That is why I responded the way I did. If you find that I"m wrong, then so be it..and I apologize for that as well.

If someone has to ask if an "avatar" can be raped...I can't think of a synonym strong enough for STUPID!

As for Trinity's response - you have no idea what her or any one of us who think this is a stupid and cruel topic have been through in our lives.  ESPECIALLY men!

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Staralien wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Trinity Yazimoto wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


I don't think I've ever claimed in this thread that one can be mind raped in SL. As I said, nothing here comes close. But I am allowing for a future in which significant harm can be delivered virtually. To proclaim that it can't ever happen is, I think, dangerous. The ethics of such futures are already being discussed.

Evidence suggests that a single administration of 
psilocybin can have life-long effects. There is also growing evidence that virtual experiences can have effects similar to hallucinogenic drugs, as both can present surreal experiences that our brains attempt to resolve by rewiring neural pathways.

Rape is one of many potentially life changing events and is not the only physchological trauma that can result in the plethora of damning consequences you've described. I'm sure we'll have new words to describe the sorts of psychological harm that may be inflicted on us in the future in ways we've not yet imagined. I'd rather we start thinking about that now, and we are.

I don't believe technology will get us to the point I'm describing anytime soon, and I believe the ethical issues will be addressed along the way... but that's just a belief.

Maddy, there are already, without any technology help, tons of mind harms possible... i hear you, but for me this exist already without any technology . And some are indeed extrem pain too.

Of course, technology will add some more.. i dont have any doubt about this.. and even, it has already started... 

but as you said, these harms have different words to describe them... rape is not one of them.. 

i just reacted on the use of the word "rape" bec words are not innocent and using them without the right purpose can be dangerous. And i will always fight aggainst this kind of banalization.

I get that, Trin.

I thought I was being careful to say that I didn't think rape was possible in SL, but that there's reason to be wary about the use of technology to cause psychological harm in the future. I didn't see Staralien's OP as demeaning rape, but rather as opening up a discussion of how, as technology gets closer to our brains, it presents a challenge for us to manage.
Thank you. I never intended harm and I really had no idea that so much drama would be created from my post. I knew there would be varying opinions, but I had no idea that there would be so many people that would take it so personal and attack me personally. I have been reading alot about technology and what is coming, etc. and it just got me to thinking about crime and stuff and to me, one of the worst crimes is rape. It can be worse than death as the victim is left to live with the trauma for years to come. I by no means intended to hurt anyone by wanting to discuss such a topic as I thought we could have an intelligent discussion about a topic that though it is horrific, has the potential to possibly become a reality one day. I had no idea that I would be called a troll or other names or accused of causing drama. I don't even know why I bother to post in these forums as there seems to be certain individuals who think they are the only ones with valid opinions and seem to attack those they don't agree with. Or, seem to misread everything I do post. As for me not coming back right away, I don't hang out on this forum all day and have other things I have to do. I generally will look over the forums with morning coffee. I have tried to be a part of this community, but frankly, I am tired of certain individuals that seem to come around in packs to attack everything I say and totally mis-read what I post. I won't say anything more on this topic as anything I do say, seems to be misconstrued and having any sort of conversation here is impossible. Perhaps a moderator will consider removing this thread from the forum since it apears to be so bothersome.

Again, I truly meant no harm. I realize that no matter what I say, some people will read what they want, and understand nothing.

 

Awwww...too much heat for you?  A bit of advice - THINK before you post.

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Czari Zenovka wrote:


Tex Monday wrote:


Malanya wrote:


Wasn't this compared to RL rape? As you state the forums are open to discuss so anyone's reply that may be emotional is not allowed? It's a safe environment I believe even when people don't agree or respond with emotions, none of us have any idea how certain topics may hit home to others for various reasons. Just as you said you are expressing your opinions and so is everyone that posted I believe.

I don't believe it was compared to RL rape by the OP. She asked if your avatar could be raped. The OP never compared it to RL..other people made that connection.

And you are of course correct. You can't have a discussion in here without being emotional..especially on a topic as hot as this. I didn't say it correctly and I apologize.

Everyone is entitled to express their opinions. I thought that Trinity's was a bit ruder than it could have been. That is why I responded the way I did. If you find that I"m wrong, then so be it..and I apologize for that as well.

If someone has to ask if an "avatar" can be raped...I can't think of a synonym strong enough for STUPID!

As for Trinity's response - you have no idea what her or any one of us who think this is a stupid and cruel topic have been through in our lives.  ESPECIALLY men!

I've one of the 75% of US women who've never been raped, so I'm pretty sure I've no idea what it's like, especially for the 3% of US men who've endured the anguish. I'd rather include than exclude people from the conversation.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Czari Zenovka wrote:


Tex Monday wrote:


Malanya wrote:


Wasn't this compared to RL rape? As you state the forums are open to discuss so anyone's reply that may be emotional is not allowed? It's a safe environment I believe even when people don't agree or respond with emotions, none of us have any idea how certain topics may hit home to others for various reasons. Just as you said you are expressing your opinions and so is everyone that posted I believe.

I don't believe it was compared to RL rape by the OP. She asked if your avatar could be raped. The OP never compared it to RL..other people made that connection.

And you are of course correct. You can't have a discussion in here without being emotional..especially on a topic as hot as this. I didn't say it correctly and I apologize.

Everyone is entitled to express their opinions. I thought that Trinity's was a bit ruder than it could have been. That is why I responded the way I did. If you find that I"m wrong, then so be it..and I apologize for that as well.

If someone has to ask if an "avatar" can be raped...I can't think of a synonym strong enough for STUPID!

As for Trinity's response - you have no idea what her or any one of us who think this is a stupid and cruel topic have been through in our lives.  ESPECIALLY men!

I've one of the 75% of US women who've never been raped, so I'm pretty sure I've no idea what it's like, especially for the 3% of US men who've endured the anguish. I'd rather include than exclude people from the conversation.

Bully for you.

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Staralien wrote:

Here's a can of worms I just opened


Congrats on opening your can of 'Medusa's Wig'.

Here's your complementary shirt.

 

can_of_worms_bad_idea_shirts.jpg

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To me you don't start an innocent debate with an opening statement that you know a can of worms are about to be opened...unless you want to open that can of worms. At least in my point of view.

For a few days now I've been avoiding commenting on this topic because I find it insulting like others have. Perhaps I should of just stopped following the topic, but it is hard to. It is the proverbial train wreck where no one can quite look away as it happens. I've read through the thread in its entirety.

Rape isn't possible in a virtual world like Second Life. Thankfully everything we do requires consent and if something is happening we don't like there is the mute option as well as the wonderful red X that can get you out of any situation. There is no way that any situation happening in Second Life could remotely impact someone emotionally and mentally as being raped in real life. Using a term like Mind Rape is in very poor taste. Words mean something.

For many Second Life is a safe place to rebuild trust in their own existence. I know this from personal experience. We have the choice of where we go and what we do. No one can do anything without one's consent.

I guess I will stop my post here because I realize I'm just repeating what others have already stated. I'm sorry, but I just had to say something.

 

 

 

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