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Staralien

Mind Rape

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Malanya wrote:

That person didn't deserve your typed words. They are looking for an argument over this ridiculous thread that isn't there.

I know and I also know I shouldn't have responded...it's the legal person in me. *laughs*

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Well we all responded to this thread period .. so, but yeah I can understand you wanting to respond with your background :)

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Heart Brimmer wrote:


Donna Wyx wrote:

"Seriously??? You DO realize that NO ONE can rape anyone in SL without YOUR consent, right????"

 

What if they have a cannon that fires a giant **bleep** and it locks onto your AV and goes up the **bleep** or anus quickly? Very little can be done to stop that. 

You are aware that you have not been physically impaled by whatever is launched out of a cannon, right? It's pixels, nothing more. It didn't really happen to you in real life. Please just click the little x in the right hand corner, if you think SL is ANYTHING like RL.

I think a functional MRI of a brain experiencing SL might show that it does think it's at least a little like RL, though not yet enough so to invite much moral/ethical/legal interest.

Give it time, Ms. Legal Person ;-)

In the meantime, you'll have your hands full dealing with issues raised by loss of privacy and the Internet's inability to forget (forgetting is one of humanity's valuable traits). We are discovering that while our hi-tech toys are disposable, the shadows we cast in their mesmerizing light are immortal.

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Staralien wrote:

 

If your avatar is raped, (if such a thing were possible to do against your will) can you prosecute the person in real life?

 

Sexual rape is 100% impossible in SL. 99% of every other definition of rape are also impossible in SL.

 


Staralien wrote:

 

Rape is a violent act, and in this case it would be basically raping someone's mind. Mind rape.

 

Short of cutting off someone's head, taking out the brains and sexually assaulting them, mind rape is also impossible by every definition.

 

 

Why people continue to use the word rape in SL is beyond me. It's an impossibility and an insensitivity to anyone who has suffered it.

 

Your words I believe... "Only tears of sorrow can wash out the stain of shame"

 

Need a tissue?

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That's what the mute button is for.


After seeing so many noobs pulling out their e-peens everywhere they can, you become numb to it I guess. :matte-motes-bashful-cute:

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

no,  but seriously.......even if it was possible, or even if you are a noob.... how can someone compare what could be a rape of an avatar to a real rape ???? 

HOW ????

i guess pp need to have lived this in real to understand... i guess that maybe pp who never experienced this in real cant understand ?

How can someone compare what a person is feeling while she/he is raped with what someone is feeling while she/he is seing his/her avi raped...??  id just like to know how ????? really really.....

feeling like a **bleep** in front of someone who is denying all what we are, all our power to decide what we want for ourselves... feeling someone's part inside us, and seing this person enjoying it while you would want to be elsewhere and all your body wants to cry ?.... Do you think you can compare this, with a damn avatar shaked on balls ?????

i shouldnt have read this thread..... it gives me willings to vomit my dinner....

seriously.... SL is only pixels..... even if person are real behind.. the avatar is only pixel... and i d really like to know how can someone feel harmed bec an avatar abuse the same way than a rl rape...

dont get me wrong... i told it, pp are real behind avatars.. but really, the rape pain is something that can be felt behind an avatar. you can have lot of other pains, but not this one.....

and whatever you had physic injuries or not... the biggest pain after a rape, is not physical, but mental... you just feel like you have been amputed from all your body.... i dont think you can experience this thru an avatar.... 

very well said!

i just can't see it as  possible at all to recreate something so tramatic and violent and invasive and soul leeching..

 just leaving you dead inside and out..

i can't see a cybor rape leading daymares and nightmares and to years of therapy..

i just cannot grasp it being possible..

 

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

i just can't see it as  possible at all to recreate something so tramatic and violent and invasive and soul leeching..

 just leaving you dead inside and out..

i can't see a cybor rape leading daymares and nightmares and to years of therapy..

i just cannot grasp it being possible..

 

A few years ago, I wouldn't have believed that you could deliver a spiritual epiphany in a pill... a single pill. But there is mounting evidence that psilocybin (the active psychotropic ingredient in magic mushrooms) can have that effect. We're learning which neurotransmitters and modulators are responsible for feelings of sexual attraction and personal attachment and therapies are being imagined to treat abused people for their addiction to their abusers. Can we imagine a future in which drugs might be used to rapidly create attraction and attachment where it would not normally occur, allowing abusive people to quickly render their victims "unwilling" to protest their abuse? It might be impossible to detect that's been done if the chemicals occur naturally in the brain, and if they can jump-start processes (like love) that the brain will continue on its own after the initial administration. One dose of psilocybin appears to have life long effects.

Meanwhile, people find themselves increasingly more vulnerable as they (often unwittingly) lose privacy to the internet. As a result, I think we'll see new forms of coercion.

As for the cyber, and eventually cyborg aspects of this discussion, if you believe in Ray Kurzweil's end game of the merger of man and machine, then it may someday become impossible to separate real and virtual experiences, which might occur simultaneously. My technical journals are filled with articles predicting the embedding of digital sensory and cognitive aids in the not too distant future. If and when this occurs, we'll be facing some ethical issues as the owners of these implanted devices may not be able to avoid the influence of devices which may not be entirely secure.

I also think that the descriptions of RL rape I've read here cover only a fraction of actual rapes. Rape needn't be physically violent and doesn't require immediate objection by the victim. A substantial number of rapes are committed against victims in altered states induced by drugs and/or alcohol, who were not aware of the rape until after the fact. There are a great many rape victims who do not require therapy, do not feel dead after the fact and do not feel as if their souls have been leached. They have been raped nonetheless.

I certainly understand the concerns people feel about comparing SL experiences to RL rape, but as I look towards the future, I think it's prudent to consider the possibility that we'll be able to induce significant mental and emotional harm in ways that we currently "cannot grasp being possible".

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Maddy, i dont think you understand well what some of us are saying and you are mixing a lot of things..

firstly; about the future.... i cant tell what will be the future... i dont think someone can.. so lets keep talking for now.. what we are experiencing in our present. Future can only be hypothetic... 

secondly, law make a distinction between sexual aggression and rape.. both are in the same category. Rape is a form of sexual agression but the extrem one. Both are bad. Both leave pains (psychological or physical or both). Both are punished by the law.

a rape commited using drugs is still a rape.. and yes, there are already drugs existing about this.. (GHB but not only)

a rape can also be commited under influence : a parent, a teacher, etc.. someone with authority and who abuse  it for raping the person. They are also called rape.

Rape is rape. Avatar abuse, just like a puppet "abuse" is not a rape. its just what it is : an avatar "abuse".

Noone says a rape need to be physically violent... the violence is above all psychological... a lot of pp raped doesnt have physical harms... 

BUT

almost every person raped, have psychological harms.... some exemples :

a person raped has 50 % more probablility than non raped persons to turn into drug addiction or alcoholism, a lot have trouble with alimentation and trouble with the mental representation of their body..not to mention all forms of selfdestructions and depressions.

having been raped can, for example, make a person unable to make enter in her/his house, the electricity worker for exemple, a doctor, the gazman etc , if there is not another person that she/he trust in the house at the moment.

this same person, can also have taken a lot of kg after the rape, that she/he wont never loose bec she/he cant accept to feel to be desirable... she would  like.. but for her being desirable means being vulnerable..

this same person, can have trouble of behavior with the other gender.. never trust them, being deeply afraid of them, terrorized... never accept to stay alone with one of them. That will make her/his life hard for building a normal life and a family.

this same person may feel amputed from all his/her body and so neglect totally what is happening to her/his body...

this same person will never be able to hang out by night anymore... neither to hang out in fields in the days ... in short this same person will never feel to have the same level of freedoms from the other ones. There will be tons of nomansland for this person.

its not only physical harms, Maddy, its ALL your life that will never be the same.... it will affect everything in your life, every day, everywhere, and often forever.

So no, Maddy.... whatever will be possible to be done in the future.... a rape will still remain a rape, and the definition given by the law, is that rape is a physical abuse, and in difference of the generic sexual agression, the rape has always an insertion of smth (a part of sm1 else or an object) inside the body of the victim.

And this, Maddy, its impossible thru technology for now..... and even less in SL.

saying you can be raped if someone abuse your avatar, is just same that if you will say ive killed you bec ive cut the head of your real puppet..... the one who will have the head off, will be your puppet, not you... of course, you can be sad, of course it can even cause psychological harms but in any case wont be qualified as i commited a murder on your person...

In conclusion, id like to add that using words like this for non right purpose is dangerous... it banalize the word and empty it from is real meaning..... just like when some vegans make the analogy betweek nazi camps and killing animals in slaughterhouses..... This is dangerous.... and as someone said, rape is a serious topic, enough for not joke with it, neither banalize it..... 

if now, pp accept to use the term rape for avatar abuse, so when a person will be raped in rl and she will complain, pp will think its not so horrible bec they will have in mind that a rape can be commited thru an avatar aswell... their look on the real rape will be different.

So noone is denying, there can be agressions made via technology, but they just have different words for this.... Rape is not one of those.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:

i just can't see it as  possible at all to recreate something so tramatic and violent and invasive and soul leeching..

 just leaving you dead inside and out..

i can't see a cybor rape leading daymares and nightmares and to years of therapy..

i just cannot grasp it being possible..

 

A few years ago, I wouldn't have believed that you could deliver a
... a single pill. But there is mounting evidence that
psilocybin (the active psychotropic ingredient in magic mushrooms) can have that effect. We're learning which neurotransmitters and modulators are responsible for feelings of sexual attraction and personal attachment and therapies are being imagined to treat abused people for their addiction to their abusers. Can we imagine a future in which drugs might be used to rapidly create attraction and attachment where it would not normally occur, allowing abusive people to quickly render their victims "unwilling" to protest their abuse? It might be impossible to detect that's been done if the chemicals occur naturally in the brain, and if they can jump-start processes (like love) that the brain will continue on its own after the initial administration. One dose of 
psilocybin appears to have life long effects.

Meanwhile, people find themselves increasingly more vulnerable as they (often unwittingly) lose privacy to the internet. As a result, I think we'll see new forms of coercion.

As for the cyber, and eventually cyborg aspects of this discussion, if you believe in Ray Kurzweil's end game of the merger of man and machine, then it may someday become impossible to separate real and virtual experiences, which might occur simultaneously. My technical journals are filled with articles predicting the embedding of digital sensory and cognitive aids in the not too distant future. If and when this occurs, we'll be facing some ethical issues as the owners of these implanted devices may not be able to avoid the influence of devices which may not be entirely secure.

I also think that the descriptions of RL rape I've read here cover only a fraction of actual rapes. Rape needn't be physically violent and doesn't require immediate objection by the victim. A substantial number of rapes are committed against victims in altered states induced by drugs and/or alcohol, who were not aware of the rape until after the fact. There are a great many rape victims who do not require therapy, do not feel dead after the fact and do not feel as if their souls have been leached. They have been raped nonetheless.

I certainly understand the concerns people feel about comparing SL experiences to RL rape, but as I look towards the future, I think it's prudent to consider the possibility that we'll be able to induce significant mental and emotional harm in ways that we currently "cannot grasp being possible".

Thank you for your thoughtful discussion of this topic and your valuable insight. I thank everyone else who has responded as well.

I in no way intended offense or wished to diminish the reality of the pain and trauma of RL rape. I myself have been a victim of such a crime, so there is no way I would wish to add trauma to anyone else that has experienced it.

I didn't offer my own opinion in my original post. I knew I would be opening up a hot topic, but I didn't think that people would take such great offense.  For that I apologize. I only wanted to open a discussion based on what is happening with technology and the advances that are being made. 

Some may think these are stupid questions, but the reality is, technology is advancing beyond what we can even imagine. There will come a day in the future that we will be able to log onto our computers and communicate with our minds alone. We will be able to move about in virtual worlds using only our minds, not our fingers on a key board or mouse. As technology advances, our minds will become more and more immersed with machine until it may be impossible to distinguish where the human and machine are separate. When such technology happens, questions of virtual crimes may become relevant. Like it or not, there are some really bad people in the world and if they can think of a way to victimize others, well they will do so. Movies like The Matrix or Avatar seem like just fantasy, but a search of the Internet will bring you all kinds of results...fantasy is becoming reality.

We may not see it in our life times...then again if you are only 20 something, you just may. When and IF technology advances to the point where we are able to control machines with our minds alone, then questions like these may very well become relevant indeed.

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Efurou wrote:


Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

no,  but seriously.......even if it was possible, or even if you are a noob.... how can someone compare what could be a rape of an avatar to a real rape ???? 

HOW ????

 

So very true! It is crazy to compare rl rape with someone staring at some pixel person at the screen who might be humped by another pixel person - until the one pixel person who might be tricked into the act can tp away.

 

And, as I mentioned in a previous post within this thread, for some people it doesn't even take watching an avatar as someone on IRC years ago was crying to others how she was "raped" in a text-based medium.  Either the person/s are not quite right mentally or drama types.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

the biggest pain after a rape, is not physical, but mental... you just feel like you have been amputed from all your body.... i dont think you can experience this thru an avatar.... 

... yet.

There are those who believe we'll get to the point where our "virtual" experiences will be indistinguishable from our "real" ones.

If you believe it's all neurochemistry (as I do), it's not a huge stretch to imagine driving a brain to a truly harmfull state via real experiences, virtual ones, or pharmacological means.

I in no way wish to diminish the horror of RL rape, but I do find it interesting to ponder our growing ability to inflict pain (or pleasure) on each other using technology.

When/if technology gets to that point, I will not choose to use it.  I recently saw a profile comment on Twitter - "We live in the age of smart phones and dumb people."

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Melita Magic wrote:


Staralien wrote:

Here's a can of worms I just opened:

If your avatar is raped, (if such a thing were possible to do against your will) can you prosecute the person in real life? Should you be able to? Rape is a violent act, and in this case it would be basically raping someone's mind. Mind rape.

 

Obvious trollbait is obvious.

Rape is not a humorous topic.

QFT!

@Trinity - I agree with you 10,000% regardless of future "technology."

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Malanya wrote:

That person didn't deserve your typed words. They are looking for an argument over this ridiculous thread that isn't there.

 

edit: the MO of this OP will follow with the usual thread such as

Ah right...forgot who we were dealing with...carry on. ;)

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

Maddy, i dont think you understand well what some of us are saying and you are mixing a lot of things..

firstly; about the future.... i cant tell what will be the future... i dont think someone can.. so lets keep talking for now.. what we are experiencing in our present. Future can only be hypothetic... 

secondly, law make a distinction between sexual aggression and rape.. both are in the same category. Rape is a form of sexual agression but the extrem one. Both are bad. Both leave pains (psychological or physical or both). Both are punished by the law.

a rape commited using drugs is still a rape.. and yes, there are already drugs existing about this.. (GHB but not only)

a rape can also be commited under influence : a parent, a teacher, etc.. someone with authority and who abuse  it for raping the person. They are also called rape.

Rape is rape. Avatar abuse, just like a puppet "abuse" is not a rape. its just what it is : an avatar "abuse".

Noone says a rape need to be physically violent... the violence is above all psychological... a lot of pp raped doesnt have physical harms... 

BUT

almost every person raped, have psychological harms.... some exemples :

a person raped has 50 % more probablility than non raped persons to turn into drug addiction or alcoholism, a lot have trouble with alimentation and trouble with the mental representation of their body..not to mention all forms of selfdestructions and depressions.

having been raped can, for example, make a person unable to make enter in her/his house, the electricity worker for exemple, a doctor, the gazman etc , if there is not another person that she/he trust in the house at the moment.

this same person, can also have taken a lot of kg after the rape, that she/he wont never loose bec she/he cant accept to feel to be desirable... she would  like.. but for her being desirable means being vulnerable..

this same person, can have trouble of behavior with the other gender.. never trust them, being deeply afraid of them, terrorized... never accept to stay alone with one of them. That will make her/his life hard for building a normal life and a family.

this same person may feel amputed from all his/her body and so neglect totally what is happening to her/his body...

this same person will never be able to hang out by night anymore... neither to hang out in fields in the days ... in short this same person will never feel to have the same level of freedoms from the other ones. There will be tons of nomansland for this person.

its not only physical harms, Maddy, its ALL your life that will never be the same.... it will affect everything in your life, every day, everywhere, and often forever.

So no, Maddy.... whatever will be possible to be done in the future.... a rape will still remain a rape, and the definition given by the law, is that rape is a
physical
abuse, and in difference of the generic sexual agression, the rape
has always an insertion of smth (a part of sm1 else or an object) inside the body of the victim.

And this, Maddy, its impossible thru technology for now..... and even less in SL.

saying you can be raped if someone abuse your avatar, is just same that if you will say ive killed you bec ive cut the head of your real puppet..... the one who will have the head off, will be your puppet, not you... of course, you can be sad, of course it can even cause psychological harms but in any case wont be qualified as i commited a murder on your person...

In conclusion, id like to add that using words like this for non right purpose is dangerous... it banalize the word and empty it from is real meaning..... just like when some vegans make the analogy betweek nazi camps and killing animals in slaughterhouses..... This is dangerous.... and as someone said, rape is a serious topic, enough for not joke with it, neither banalize it..... 

if now, pp accept to use the term rape for avatar abuse, so when a person will be raped in rl and she will complain, pp will think its not so horrible bec they will have in mind that a rape can be commited thru an avatar aswell... their look on the real rape will be different.

So noone is denying, there can be agressions made via technology, but they just have different words for this.... Rape is not one of those.

I don't think I've ever claimed in this thread that one can be mind raped in SL. As I said, nothing here comes close. But I am allowing for a future in which significant harm can be delivered virtually. To proclaim that it can't ever happen is, I think, dangerous. The ethics of such futures are already being discussed.

Evidence suggests that a single administration of psilocybin can have life-long effects. There is also growing evidence that virtual experiences can have effects similar to hallucinogenic drugs, as both can present surreal experiences that our brains attempt to resolve by rewiring neural pathways.

Rape is one of many potentially life changing events and is not the only physchological trauma that can result in the plethora of damning consequences you've described. I'm sure we'll have new words to describe the sorts of psychological harm that may be inflicted on us in the future in ways we've not yet imagined. I'd rather we start thinking about that now, and we are.

I don't believe technology will get us to the point I'm describing anytime soon, and I believe the ethical issues will be addressed along the way... but that's just a belief.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:

i just can't see it as  possible at all to recreate something so tramatic and violent and invasive and soul leeching..

 just leaving you dead inside and out..

i can't see a cybor rape leading daymares and nightmares and to years of therapy..

i just cannot grasp it being possible..

 

A few years ago, I wouldn't have believed that you could deliver a
... a single pill. But there is mounting evidence that
psilocybin (the active psychotropic ingredient in magic mushrooms) can have that effect. We're learning which neurotransmitters and modulators are responsible for feelings of sexual attraction and personal attachment and therapies are being imagined to treat abused people for their addiction to their abusers. Can we imagine a future in which drugs might be used to rapidly create attraction and attachment where it would not normally occur, allowing abusive people to quickly render their victims "unwilling" to protest their abuse? It might be impossible to detect that's been done if the chemicals occur naturally in the brain, and if they can jump-start processes (like love) that the brain will continue on its own after the initial administration. One dose of 
psilocybin appears to have life long effects.

Meanwhile, people find themselves increasingly more vulnerable as they (often unwittingly) lose privacy to the internet. As a result, I think we'll see new forms of coercion.

As for the cyber, and eventually cyborg aspects of this discussion, if you believe in Ray Kurzweil's end game of the merger of man and machine, then it may someday become impossible to separate real and virtual experiences, which might occur simultaneously. My technical journals are filled with articles predicting the embedding of digital sensory and cognitive aids in the not too distant future. If and when this occurs, we'll be facing some ethical issues as the owners of these implanted devices may not be able to avoid the influence of devices which may not be entirely secure.

I also think that the descriptions of RL rape I've read here cover only a fraction of actual rapes. Rape needn't be physically violent and doesn't require immediate objection by the victim. A substantial number of rapes are committed against victims in altered states induced by drugs and/or alcohol, who were not aware of the rape until after the fact. There are a great many rape victims who do not require therapy, do not feel dead after the fact and do not feel as if their souls have been leached. They have been raped nonetheless.

I certainly understand the concerns people feel about comparing SL experiences to RL rape, but as I look towards the future, I think it's prudent to consider the possibility that we'll be able to induce significant mental and emotional harm in ways that we currently "cannot grasp being possible".

Have you ever been a victim of a violent crime? Where do you get your rape statistics, Wikipedia? Please, you can project your Jetson theory but I don't think you understand no matter what simulator, pill, technology, it will NEVER compare to a RL experience, there will always be an element left out, because we are human. I am so over this ridiculous thread and the theories of future stimulation crap. This topic is just wrong in my eyes and knowing what replies a topic like this would bring. DRAMA

 

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Czari Zenovka wrote:


Malanya wrote:

That person didn't deserve your typed words. They are looking for an argument over this ridiculous thread that isn't there.

 

edit: the MO of this OP will follow with the usual thread such as

Ah right...forgot who we were dealing with...carry on.
;)

Cheers :)

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i hope for you that you had a lot of fun with your thread...I didnt. i usually dont make any fun about rape victims..


Staralien wrote:



Thank you for your thoughtful discussion of this topic and your valuable insight. I thank everyone else who has responded as well.

I in no way intended offense or wished to diminish the reality of the pain and trauma of RL rape. I myself have been a victim of such a crime, so there is no way I would wish to add trauma to anyone else that has experienced it.

NO, if you didnt wish to add trauma to these pp you would have used your brain and would have foreseen the consequence of what you throwed here. your actions have consequences.. you are responsible of these ones too on top of your actions.

I didn't offer my own opinion in my original post. I knew I would be opening up a hot topic, but I didn't think that people would take such great offense.  For that I apologize. 

Sorry, on my side i wont forgive. you are supposed to be a grown person.. so you are supposed to know that your action have consequences... Too much easy to come light a fire while you know it will burn things and then say 'i apologize". This can be forgiven to young pp, kids, teenagers.. but not to adults.. im sorry. You had tons of reasons to know what you were doing....However,  I dont doubt that you'll get tons of forgiveness from other persons... but on my side, i dont joke with rape, im sorry.

Some may think these are stupid questions,

they are indeed.. and really badly stupid ones.

but the reality is, technology is advancing beyond what we can even imagine. There will come a day in the future that we will be able to log onto our computers and communicate with our minds alone. We will be able to move about in virtual worlds using only our minds, not our fingers on a key board or mouse. As technology advances, our minds will become more and more immersed with machine until it may be impossible to distinguish where the human and machine are separate. When such technology happens, questions of virtual crimes may become relevant. Like it or not, there are some really bad people in the world and if they can think of a way to victimize others, well they will do so. Movies like The Matrix or Avatar seem like just fantasy, but a search of the Internet will bring you all kinds of results...fantasy is becoming reality.

you should just get a life and realise life is not same than in movie.. not even same than in sl ....maybe noone has told you already.... you ll have a big surprise then, the day you will realise it.

We may not see it in our life times...then again if you are only 20 something, you just may. When and IF technology advances to the point where we are able to control machines with our minds alone, then questions like these may very well become relevant indeed.

 
and before real life will become maybe even close from this... we will be dead since long time...if it only happens...

And again, i dont give a f*** to what will be life in 3050. im living now in 2013 and now in 2013 your thread has been an insult to every rape victim and more generaly to every crime victim.. But well, as long you had fun, i bet it was the more important.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:

i just can't see it as  possible at all to recreate something so tramatic and violent and invasive and soul leeching..

 just leaving you dead inside and out..

i can't see a cybor rape leading daymares and nightmares and to years of therapy..

i just cannot grasp it being possible..

 

A few years ago, I wouldn't have believed that you could deliver a
... a single pill. But there is mounting evidence that
psilocybin (the active psychotropic ingredient in magic mushrooms) can have that effect. We're learning which neurotransmitters and modulators are responsible for feelings of sexual attraction and personal attachment and therapies are being imagined to treat abused people for their addiction to their abusers. Can we imagine a future in which drugs might be used to rapidly create attraction and attachment where it would not normally occur, allowing abusive people to quickly render their victims "unwilling" to protest their abuse? It might be impossible to detect that's been done if the chemicals occur naturally in the brain, and if they can jump-start processes (like love) that the brain will continue on its own after the initial administration. One dose of 
psilocybin appears to have life long effects.

Meanwhile, people find themselves increasingly more vulnerable as they (often unwittingly) lose privacy to the internet. As a result, I think we'll see new forms of coercion.

As for the cyber, and eventually cyborg aspects of this discussion, if you believe in Ray Kurzweil's end game of the merger of man and machine, then it may someday become impossible to separate real and virtual experiences, which might occur simultaneously. My technical journals are filled with articles predicting the embedding of digital sensory and cognitive aids in the not too distant future. If and when this occurs, we'll be facing some ethical issues as the owners of these implanted devices may not be able to avoid the influence of devices which may not be entirely secure.

I also think that the descriptions of RL rape I've read here cover only a fraction of actual rapes. Rape needn't be physically violent and doesn't require immediate objection by the victim. A substantial number of rapes are committed against victims in altered states induced by drugs and/or alcohol, who were not aware of the rape until after the fact. There are a great many rape victims who do not require therapy, do not feel dead after the fact and do not feel as if their souls have been leached. They have been raped nonetheless.

I certainly understand the concerns people feel about comparing SL experiences to RL rape, but as I look towards the future, I think it's prudent to consider the possibility that we'll be able to induce significant mental and emotional harm in ways that we currently "cannot grasp being possible".

the OP pointed specifically to violent rape..

i'm aware there other kinds of rape..but that is the kind i am talking about when i describe it..

i can't say what someone goes through with those other types..how tramatic it is or what it does to them..each person will be impacted differently in any kind..

let me just say this..i hope we never get so far advanced that we become stupid enough to be able to violently rape someone over the internet..

or any kind of violent things or any kind of rape at all.

if i ever see it getting this close..i'll smash my computer and rip out my phone lines and toss my ipad and cell phones in the lake..

then never take off my pistols..

because the world will be even more batsh!t crazy violent by then and it won't be that easy this time around..

 

 

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Trinity I am sure the OP had fun as it took how many pages to come back after igniting the fire. Your passion for humanity shows and I wish there was a Kudos button for your post.

edited to add something

 

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Ceka Cianci wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:

i just can't see it as  possible at all to recreate something so tramatic and violent and invasive and soul leeching..

 just leaving you dead inside and out..

i can't see a cybor rape leading daymares and nightmares and to years of therapy..

i just cannot grasp it being possible..

 

A few years ago, I wouldn't have believed that you could deliver a
... a single pill. But there is mounting evidence that
psilocybin (the active psychotropic ingredient in magic mushrooms) can have that effect. We're learning which neurotransmitters and modulators are responsible for feelings of sexual attraction and personal attachment and therapies are being imagined to treat abused people for their addiction to their abusers. Can we imagine a future in which drugs might be used to rapidly create attraction and attachment where it would not normally occur, allowing abusive people to quickly render their victims "unwilling" to protest their abuse? It might be impossible to detect that's been done if the chemicals occur naturally in the brain, and if they can jump-start processes (like love) that the brain will continue on its own after the initial administration. One dose of 
psilocybin appears to have life long effects.

Meanwhile, people find themselves increasingly more vulnerable as they (often unwittingly) lose privacy to the internet. As a result, I think we'll see new forms of coercion.

As for the cyber, and eventually cyborg aspects of this discussion, if you believe in Ray Kurzweil's end game of the merger of man and machine, then it may someday become impossible to separate real and virtual experiences, which might occur simultaneously. My technical journals are filled with articles predicting the embedding of digital sensory and cognitive aids in the not too distant future. If and when this occurs, we'll be facing some ethical issues as the owners of these implanted devices may not be able to avoid the influence of devices which may not be entirely secure.

I also think that the descriptions of RL rape I've read here cover only a fraction of actual rapes. Rape needn't be physically violent and doesn't require immediate objection by the victim. A substantial number of rapes are committed against victims in altered states induced by drugs and/or alcohol, who were not aware of the rape until after the fact. There are a great many rape victims who do not require therapy, do not feel dead after the fact and do not feel as if their souls have been leached. They have been raped nonetheless.

I certainly understand the concerns people feel about comparing SL experiences to RL rape, but as I look towards the future, I think it's prudent to consider the possibility that we'll be able to induce significant mental and emotional harm in ways that we currently "cannot grasp being possible".

the OP pointed specifically to violent rape..

i'm aware there other kinds of rape..but that is the kind i am talking about when i describe it..

i can't say what someone goes through with those other types..how tramatic it is or what it does to them..each person will be impacted differently in any kind..

let me just say this..i hope we never get so far advanced that we become stupid enough to be able to violently rape someone over the internet..

or any kind of violent things or any kind of rape at all.

if i ever see it getting this close..i'll smash my computer and rip out my phone lines and toss my ipad and cell phones in the lake..

then never take off my pistols..

because the world will be even more batsh!t crazy violent by then and it won't be that easy this time around..

 

 

Ditto (but I think we are fairly safe)

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


I don't think I've ever claimed in this thread that one can be mind raped in SL. As I said, nothing here comes close. But I am allowing for a future in which significant harm can be delivered virtually. To proclaim that it can't ever happen is, I think, dangerous. The ethics of such futures are already being discussed.

Evidence suggests that a single administration of 
psilocybin can have life-long effects. There is also growing evidence that virtual experiences can have effects similar to hallucinogenic drugs, as both can present surreal experiences that our brains attempt to resolve by rewiring neural pathways.

Rape is one of many potentially life changing events and is not the only physchological trauma that can result in the plethora of damning consequences you've described. I'm sure we'll have new words to describe the sorts of psychological harm that may be inflicted on us in the future in ways we've not yet imagined. I'd rather we start thinking about that now, and we are.

I don't believe technology will get us to the point I'm describing anytime soon, and I believe the ethical issues will be addressed along the way... but that's just a belief.

Maddy, there are already, without any technology help, tons of mind harms possible... i hear you, but for me this exist already without any technology . And some are indeed extrem pain too.

Of course, technology will add some more.. i dont have any doubt about this.. and even, it has already started... 

but as you said, these harms have different words to describe them... rape is not one of them.. 

i just reacted on the use of the word "rape" bec words are not innocent and using them without the right purpose can be dangerous. And i will always fight aggainst this kind of banalization.

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Malanya wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:

i just can't see it as  possible at all to recreate something so tramatic and violent and invasive and soul leeching..

 just leaving you dead inside and out..

i can't see a cybor rape leading daymares and nightmares and to years of therapy..

i just cannot grasp it being possible..

 

A few years ago, I wouldn't have believed that you could deliver a
... a single pill. But there is mounting evidence that
psilocybin (the active psychotropic ingredient in magic mushrooms) can have that effect. We're learning which neurotransmitters and modulators are responsible for feelings of sexual attraction and personal attachment and therapies are being imagined to treat abused people for their addiction to their abusers. Can we imagine a future in which drugs might be used to rapidly create attraction and attachment where it would not normally occur, allowing abusive people to quickly render their victims "unwilling" to protest their abuse? It might be impossible to detect that's been done if the chemicals occur naturally in the brain, and if they can jump-start processes (like love) that the brain will continue on its own after the initial administration. One dose of 
psilocybin appears to have life long effects.

Meanwhile, people find themselves increasingly more vulnerable as they (often unwittingly) lose privacy to the internet. As a result, I think we'll see new forms of coercion.

As for the cyber, and eventually cyborg aspects of this discussion, if you believe in Ray Kurzweil's end game of the merger of man and machine, then it may someday become impossible to separate real and virtual experiences, which might occur simultaneously. My technical journals are filled with articles predicting the embedding of digital sensory and cognitive aids in the not too distant future. If and when this occurs, we'll be facing some ethical issues as the owners of these implanted devices may not be able to avoid the influence of devices which may not be entirely secure.

I also think that the descriptions of RL rape I've read here cover only a fraction of actual rapes. Rape needn't be physically violent and doesn't require immediate objection by the victim. A substantial number of rapes are committed against victims in altered states induced by drugs and/or alcohol, who were not aware of the rape until after the fact. There are a great many rape victims who do not require therapy, do not feel dead after the fact and do not feel as if their souls have been leached. They have been raped nonetheless.

I certainly understand the concerns people feel about comparing SL experiences to RL rape, but as I look towards the future, I think it's prudent to consider the possibility that we'll be able to induce significant mental and emotional harm in ways that we currently "cannot grasp being possible".

Have you ever been a victim of a violent crime? Where do you get your rape statistics, Wikipedia? Please, you can project your Jetson theory but I don't think you understand no matter what simulator, pill, technology, it will NEVER compare to a RL experience, there will always be an element left out, because we are human. I am so over this ridiculous thread and the theories of future stimulation crap.

I'm not sure what it is about my characterization of rape that's bothering you. That it happens in many ways does not make it any less horrific. That it happens in many ways does make it important to consider those ways, and their implications for other kinds of abuse. I don't think you are advocating that we reserve our compassion only for those who's rapes are fast and physically violent and precipitate all the other dreadful effects listed by Trinity and Ceka and others.

I don't happen to believe that technology will race out ahead of us, allowing rampant abuse. The reason I don't believe that will happen is because there are people, like me, who don't believe it's impossible.

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


I don't think I've ever claimed in this thread that one can be mind raped in SL. As I said, nothing here comes close. But I am allowing for a future in which significant harm can be delivered virtually. To proclaim that it can't ever happen is, I think, dangerous. The ethics of such futures are already being discussed.

Evidence suggests that a single administration of 
psilocybin can have life-long effects. There is also growing evidence that virtual experiences can have effects similar to hallucinogenic drugs, as both can present surreal experiences that our brains attempt to resolve by rewiring neural pathways.

Rape is one of many potentially life changing events and is not the only physchological trauma that can result in the plethora of damning consequences you've described. I'm sure we'll have new words to describe the sorts of psychological harm that may be inflicted on us in the future in ways we've not yet imagined. I'd rather we start thinking about that now, and we are.

I don't believe technology will get us to the point I'm describing anytime soon, and I believe the ethical issues will be addressed along the way... but that's just a belief.

Maddy, there are already, without any technology help, tons of mind harms possible... i hear you, but for me this exist already without any technology . And some are indeed extrem pain too.

Of course, technology will add some more.. i dont have any doubt about this.. and even, it has already started... 

but as you said, these harms have different words to describe them... rape is not one of them.. 

i just reacted on the use of the word "rape" bec words are not innocent and using them without the right purpose can be dangerous. And i will always fight aggainst this kind of banalization.

I get that, Trin.

I thought I was being careful to say that I didn't think rape was possible in SL, but that there's reason to be wary about the use of technology to cause psychological harm in the future. I didn't see Staralien's OP as demeaning rape, but rather as opening up a discussion of how, as technology gets closer to our brains, it presents a challenge for us to manage.

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